Wisdom or Love - What Is Greater?

[Darryl_B]

When I think of a vehicle and a payload, a cement truck comes to mind. One might say that such a vehicle (the truck) is the cause, and its payload (cement) is the effect. If this is what you have in mind, then I believe you are saying that for us, wisdom is the cause of our own love.

But you haven’t said enough for me to know if what you say is true. For you have said what wisdom is that which comprehends and acts according to its comprehension, but you have not said what love is. So please tell me: What is love? Then I will better comprehend what you say is true that I might act on this comprehension.

Sorry, I was not thinking of a cement truck, per se. I was thinking of something far more technically advanced as the vehicle (eg an air-craft carrier, a space shuttle, a B-52 bomber even), and something far more greater impact than cement.

Love is easy to define. It is the opposite of hate, and hate is something every human from the most simple to the most sophistic understands.

 

[Darryl_B]

I would add that comparing wisdom to love, setting one against the other, appears to be putting an on the one hand, the Old Testament, and on the other hand, the New Testament, and pitting the two “testaments” against each other. I would disagree with this model. I would say the two, namely wisdom and love are deeply intertwined in the OT. And that the two are deeply intertwined and expounded, even fulfilled in the NT.

 

[brian_custer]

i would say wisdom is the greater virtue; as far as i can see it is a much rarer commodity

 

[spockrates]

didn’t Solomon mess up by allowing so many concubines to sway him from the worship of the one true God? How was he truly wise??? Because he said Wisdom is to be desired??? He messed up and the whole kingdom was divided on his account…

Indeed! So consider these words of scripture:

11 God said to Solomon, “Since this is your heart’s desire and you have not asked for wealth, possessions or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, 12 therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you. And I will also give you wealth, possessions and honor, such as no king who was before you ever had and none after you will have.”

(2 Chrinicles 1)

Since Solomon clearly had great wisdom but behaved foolishly, does this mean wisdom is what we know but not what we do?

 

[spockrates]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

What does a six year old “know” about wisdom? But he wants to act to show his love for his mother and father. In his little way he will draw a picture, give a hug, say a few words that express his love. Yet, wisdom is still to be sought after for him. He loves NOW! Love is simple and easy. You don’t have to be wise to know it… to share it… to wish to act in a loving way for someone else…

Petra:

Yes, I agree that children have an innate desire to behave unselfishly. They also have a natural desire to behave selfishly. As with adults, it is an internal conflict.

But I’m not certain infants are born with the knowledge of how to act in a way that properly expresses such love. Consider your examples: Drawing, hugging, speaking–these are all behaviors that are taught. Infants do not do them instinctively, the way a deer stands soon after it leaves its mother’s womb. As infants become children, they do these things by imitating their parents. Paul appears to acknowledge this:

1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

(Ephesians 5)

Isn’t he saying that we should learn how to love by imitating Jesus, just as children learn how to love by imitating their living parents? Isn’t such learning what we call true wisdom?

 

[spockrates]

As yet, we have not properly defined wisdom. It can mean at least two different things, it seems for Catholics, and for the secular world…many more.

Jamal:

After a lengthy dialogue, Socrates and friends of his came to the conclusion that wisdom is true opinion. He said there is only one who has this wisdom completely, who he belived to be the only truly wise God.

The biblical writers–especially Paul–make a distinction between what they called worldly wisdom and godly wisdom. I suppose Socrates would say godly wisdom is true opinion, but worldly wisdom is false opinion, and so not wisdom at all.

If what they convey is indeed wise, then wisdom is knowing what the truth is. This might be different from wise behavior, which is acting according to such knowledge. What’s your opinion?

 

[spockrates]

There are many verses about love and wisdom. Quran does not hold one above other but there are more verses about wisdom. Here some:

1. He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding. (Quran, sura Al-Baqarah)
2. “And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel,” (Quran, sura Al-İmran)
3. Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah): They love them as they should love Allah. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah… (Quran, sura Al-Baqarah)
4. On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will the Most Gracious bestow love. (Quran, sura Maryam)

165 reminds me of something Paul (pbuh) wrote in the New Testament:

11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.

(1 Corinthians 1)

What I believe he is saying is no person should be revered more than the only true God, which is something with which I’m sure most followers if Islam would agree.

And there seems to me to be much agreement among members of differing faiths. So I find it interesting that the one thing on which they agree to disagree–or rather the one person–is Jesus (pbuh). If wisdom is true opinion, then I suppose only one religion has wisdom about him. But I would never presume to say what religion that is. For I’ve often discovered that my own opinions turn out to be false.

 

[spockrates]

I can’t help but think of Sirach.

It seems that wisdom is given to those who love Him and keep His commandments.

Sirach, Chapter 1:

1 All wisdom comes from the Lord
and is with him for ever.

8 There is One who is wise, greatly to be feared,
sitting upon his throne.
9 The Lord himself created wisdom;
he saw her and apportioned her,
he poured her out upon all his works.
10 She dwells with all flesh according to his gift,
and he supplied her to those who love him.
11 The fear of the Lord is glory and exultation,
and gladness and a crown of rejoicing.
12 The fear of the Lord delights the heart,
and gives gladness and joy and long life.
13 With him who fears the Lord it will go well at the end;
on the day of his death he will be blessed.
14 To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
she is created with the faithful in the womb.
15 She made among men an eternal foundation,
and among their descendants she will be trusted.
16 To fear the Lord is wisdom’s full measure;
she satisfies men with her fruits;
17 she fills their whole house with desirable goods,
and their storehouses with her produce.
18 The fear of the Lord is the crown of wisdom,

26 If you desire wisdom, keep the commandments,
and the Lord will supply it for you.
27 For the fear of the Lord is wisdom and instruction,
and he delights in fidelity and meekness.
28 Do not disobey the fear of the Lord;
do not approach him with a divided mind.
29 Be not a hypocrite in men’s sight,
and keep watch over your lips.
30 Do not exalt yourself lest you fall,
and thus bring dishonor upon yourself.

Sounds really similar to a NT book…

John 14

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.
18 “I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me

Or 2…

1 John 1

1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

So much for a deuterocanonical

I like those words of Joshua Ben Sira and Joshua Ben Joseph. If nothing else, they were inspiring rabbis.

 

[spockrates]

Sorry, I was not thinking of a cement truck, per se. I was thinking of something far more technically advanced as the vehicle (eg an air-craft carrier, a space shuttle, a B-52 bomber even), and something far more greater impact than cement.

Love is easy to define. It is the opposite of hate, and hate is something every human from the most simple to the most sophistic understands.

Yes, I like your metaphor more. As for hate, I’m not sure I do understand what it is. Please define it for me.

 

[spockrates]

I would add that comparing wisdom to love, setting one against the other, appears to be putting an on the one hand, the Old Testament, and on the other hand, the New Testament, and pitting the two “testaments” against each other. I would disagree with this model. I would say the two, namely wisdom and love are deeply intertwined in the OT. And that the two are deeply intertwined and expounded, even fulfilled in the NT.

I would agree with you. My desire for this dialogue is not so much we actually determine what virtue is higher. My desire is more that the dialogue would help me, specifically know each virtue more. For it seems to me God is in some mysterious way both love and wisdom. So knowing these might help me know him more.

 

[spockrates]

i would say wisdom is the greater virtue; as far as i can see it is a much rarer commodity

Fascinating, Brian! Please tell me why wisdom is rarer than love.

 

[petra22]

i would say wisdom is the greater virtue; as far as i can see it is a much rarer commodity

Here is the rub. Love is greater because it is NOT rare. All, even the most simple, can participate in it.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Jamal:

After a lengthy dialogue, Socrates and friends of his came to the conclusion that wisdom is true opinion. He said there is only one who has this wisdom completely, who he belived to be the only truly wise God.

The biblical writers–especially Paul–make a distinction between what they called worldly wisdom and godly wisdom. I suppose Socrates would say godly wisdom is true opinion, but worldly wisdom is false opinion, and so not wisdom at all.

If what they convey is indeed wise, then wisdom is knowing what the truth is. This might be different from wise behavior, which is acting according to such knowledge. What’s your opinion?

It’s complex, and so multifaceted. In my mind, I tend to see Wisdom as a diamond, with so many different facets. I would say the spirit that was once long ago called “light bearer” possessed an incomprehensible amount of truth, yet in his will he did not act wisely. There was a definite rejection of truth by his will, although he knew it to a degree that few other attained to up to that point or perhaps even up to the present moment.

 

[spockrates]

It’s complex, and so multifaceted. In my mind, I tend to see Wisdom as a diamond, with so many different facets. I would say the spirit that was once long ago called “light bearer” possessed an incomprehensible amount of truth, yet in his will he did not act wisely. There was a definite rejection of truth by his will, although he knew it to a degree that few other attained to up to that point or perhaps even up to the present moment.

Well it’s difficult to speak with any certainty about the devil, demons, angels and the like. But we can be more sure about human beings. Take Solomon (pbuh), for example. God says there was no king wiser, but he himself explains how despite his wisdom, he foolishly persued every imaginable sin.

So logic leads to this inference (and please tell me if you doubt it is a wise one): If wisdom is what Solomon did, then God was not correct in saying no king was wiser than him. Yet God never says anything that is untrue, and the Bible correctly conveys what God says. Therefore, the only way Solomon could be as wise as God said is if wisdom is merely knowing what is true, but not living according to such knowledge.

That’s the only way I can see Solomon would be extremely wise, yet still be able to behaved like a fool. How about you? Please tell me: Does Islam teach that Solomon committed many sins, yet was still wise?

 

[spockrates]

Here is the rub. Love is greater because it is NOT rare. All, even the most simple, can participate in it.

Petra:

I have some doubts about that. Let me know if you would care to discuss it.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Well it’s difficult to speak with any certainty about the devil, demons, angels and the like. But we can be more sure about human beings. Take Solomon (pbuh), for example. God says there was no king wiser, but he himself explains how despite his wisdom, he foolishly persued every imaginable sin.

So logic leads to this inference (and please tell me if you doubt it is a wise one): If wisdom is what Solomon did, then God was not correct in saying no king was wiser than him. Yet God never says anything that is untrue, and the Bible correctly conveys what God says. Therefore, the only way Solomon could be as wise as God said is if wisdom is merely knowing what is true, but not living according to such knowledge.

That’s the only way I can see Solomon would be extremely wise, yet still be able to behaved like a fool. How about you? Please tell me: Does Islam teach that Solomon committed many sins, yet was still wise?

I submit that there are different ways to define Wisdom that are equally valid. One such definition revolves more around the Wisdom that Solomon possessed. It seems to me that it was more of a prudential wisdom, more of a wisdom for knowing and discerning in practical, perhaps even more of “this earth” decision making.

To talk about wisdom and it’s different meanings, I think we need a new thread. Oh by the way, regarding Solomn…it reminds me of Socrates who said it is far better to remain unmarried.

Let me define Widsom as the glossary does in the back of the Catechsim of the Catholic Church…one minute…

“A spiritual gift which enables one to know the purpose and plan of God.”

Fr. Hardon defines wisdom as residing within the intellect. But other writers will define it a bit differently.

Anyways, let’s go with the idea that Wisdom resides in the intellect. And I think it was Kant who said that “to know the good” is not necessarily to do the good. (I might be mistaken, but that is how I remember.)

David is highly praised over Solomon, and it’s interesting to note that it says he was a man “after God’s own Heart” The Will is the ultimate definer of a human person , therefore it seems greater, which leads one to deduce that love in it’s turn is greater as Love is in the Will and Wisdom is in the Intellect, but the two must exist so closely in tandem that they cannot easily be drawn apart. I hope I have not become too convoluted here or been unclear.

 

[spockrates]

I submit that there are different ways to define Wisdom that are equally valid. One such definition revolves more around the Wisdom that Solomon possessed. It seems to me that it was more of a prudential wisdom, more of a wisdom for knowing and discerning in practical, perhaps even more of “this earth” decision making.

To talk about wisdom and it’s different meanings, I think we need a new thread. Oh by the way, regarding Solomn…it reminds me of Socrates who said it is far better to remain unmarried.

Let me define Widsom as the glossary does in the back of the Catechsim of the Catholic Church…one minute…

“A spiritual gift which enables one to know the purpose and plan of God.”

Fr. Hardon defines wisdom as residing within the intellect. But other writers will define it a bit differently.

Anyways, let’s go with the idea that Wisdom resides in the intellect. And I think it was Kant who said that “to know the good” is not necessarily to do the good. (I might be mistaken, but that is how I remember.)

David is highly praised over Solomon, and it’s interesting to note that it says he was a man “after God’s own Heart” The Will is the ultimate definer of a human person , therefore it seems greater, which leads one to deduce that love in it’s turn is greater as Love is in the Will and Wisdom is in the Intellect, but the two must exist so closely in tandem that they cannot easily be drawn apart. I hope I have not become too convoluted here or been unclear.

My apologies for confusing you with one of our friends who practices Islam.


I hear what you are saying and agree that it seems probable–though not certain–that wisdom is knowledge, rather than an act if the will. But I’m not as certain that love is not something other than the will. Isn’t it possible that love is an emotion, specifically that of compassion? I’m thinking that just as wisdom guides the will but is not the will, so too love motivates the will, but is also not the will. Wisdom is not who we are, it’s what we know, I believe. Love is not who we are, it’s what we feel, I think.

One might say that your will and mine are our souls–that which is us. So isn’t wisdom the knowledge that guides your soul–or will–to act wisely and love the emotion that motivates your soul–or will–to act compassionately?

 

[JamalChristophr]

My apologies for confusing you with one of our friends who practices Islam.


I hear what you are saying and agree that it seems probable–though not certain–that wisdom is knowledge, rather than an act if the will. But I’m not as certain that love is not something other than the will. Isn’t it possible that love is an emotion, specifically that of compassion? I’m thinking that just as wisdom guides the will but is not the will, so too love motivates the will, but is also not the will. Wisdom is not who we are, it’s what we know, I believe. Love is not who we are, it’s what we feel, I think.

One might say that your will and mine are our souls–that which is us. So isn’t wisdom the knowledge that guides your soul–or will–to act wisely and love the emotion that motivates your soul–or will–to act compassionately?

Well…words tend to confuse me as I see them to a large degree as symbols in math like x, y, and z. Each person can define a word in his own way, it seems. Yes, you do have a point. But I tend to prefer the view that is more in line with Thomistic philosophy that love is more a capacity that resides in the will.

But I don’t necessarily begrudge a person for taking a different tack. However, I am of the opinion that defining love as an emotion leads to a number of problems for humanity as a whole. The realm of emotion subsists on a lower plane than that of intellect and will, and if we to place love in that realm, that would lead a person to the conclusion that wisdom is indeed higher than love. Many things are done in the name of “love” on this blue sphere, but are they truly love, much less truly wise. I would say “no.”

I believe that Christ’s perfect love flowed out of his divine intellect and will, so perhaps when we try to set one aspect (Love or Wisdom) on a higher plane than the other we are doing a disservice to both. Maybe I’m mistaken.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God Is Love, a simple, true, literal statement.

Love is NOT an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

Is anything or anyone greater than God?

 

[spockrates]

Well…words tend to confuse me as I see them to a large degree as symbols in math like x, y, and z. Each person can define a word in his own way, it seems. Yes, you do have a point. But I tend to prefer the view that is more in line with Thomistic philosophy that love is more a capacity that resides in the will.

Yes, but I think defining our terms is paramount to becoming wise about the topic of discussion. As Socrates said to his good friend:

All good counsel begins in the same way: A man should know what he is talking about, or his counsel will all come to nought. But people imagine that they know about the nature of things, when they don’t really know about them at all. And not having come to an understanding at the start (because they think that they know) they end, as might be expected, in contradicting one another and even themselves! Now you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error which we condemn in others.

(Phaedrus)

If I think one thing when we speak of love or wisdom and you think something altogether different, we’ll never come to an understanding together.

But I don’t necessarily begrudge a person for taking a different tack. However, I am of the opinion that defining love as an emotion leads to a number of problems for humanity as a whole. The realm of emotion subsists on a lower plane than that of intellect and will, and if we to place love in that realm, that would lead a person to the conclusion that wisdom is indeed higher than love. Many things are done in the name of “love” on this blue sphere, but are they truly love, much less truly wise. I would say “no.”

You might be right, but I don’t yet know why. Please tell me: Why do you believe love is more than a noble, unselfish feeling? What evidence do you have–either biblical, experiential or logical–to support the fascinating idea?

I believe that Christ’s perfect love flowed out of his divine intellect and will, so perhaps when we try to set one aspect (Love or Wisdom) on a higher plane than the other we are doing a disservice to both. Maybe I’m mistaken.

I suspect they are on an equal plane, yet that remains to be seen. But I wonder about what you said. Is that which flows out of something the thing from which it flows? Water flows out of a fire hydrant, yet the fire hydrant is not water. So if love flows out of the will, how can love be the will?