Wish oneself never existed, impunging the truth

[southeast_wisco]

I understand that willful self-destruction, suicide is a sin. It goes against the God-given dignity of the human person.

Is it a venial sin or mortal sin to tell God, in prayer, wishing that oneself had never been created, never been conceived?

Maybe that is impunging the known truth. The known truth is that God created each person. God is smarter than any human being. So a human being shouldn’t tell God, wishing oneself had never been created.

+++++++++++++

[There is an obvious difference/several steps between telling God in prayer about wishing oneself had never existed versus willful self destruction-suicide.]

 

[Mount_Carmel]

God is above all a loving and understanding God. He knows and understands all human dysfunction of mind as well as body.

I take solace in, “Father forgive them, for they know not {in fullness] what they do”.

In most all cases those who wish they had never been born, or indulge suicide, have serious mental/emotional issues.

 

[southeast_wisco]

That is a good one sentence aspiration prayer straight from the Gospel and even better from the Sacred Triduum, holy week.

++++++++++++++++++++

one consideration would be the frequency of that prayer to God, telling God about wishing never to have existed. If a person prays that prayer once every few months or six months, it is obviously different than communicating that prayer every day.

Also, i think Job in the old testament, hebrew scriptures prayed something similar.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

Is this a general Question, or is this how you feel about yourself ?

 

[NorthernAdams]

I pray for this multiple times daily.

 

[Robertanthony]

I understand that willful self-destruction, suicide is a sin. It goes against the God-given dignity of the human person.

Is it a venial sin or mortal sin to tell God, in prayer, wishing that oneself had never been created, never been conceived?

Maybe that is impunging the known truth. The known truth is that God created each person. God is smarter than any human being. So a human being shouldn’t tell God, wishing oneself had never been created.

+++++++++++++

[There is an obvious difference/several steps between telling God in prayer about wishing oneself had never existed versus willful self destruction-suicide.]

If I intended to procreate on any given night, and I could borrow God’s knowledge of the future, if I knew that whoever I was going to bring into this world would go from heartache to heartache, would have trouble fitting in, would be affected by extreme shyness, plagued by dismal self-worth and self-esteem, if I knew he/she was gonna turn to drugs, as a teen, to forget about God’s wonderful gift of life, if I knew that it would end in a psychiatric ward or at the morgue, I’d elect not to procreate that night. And I’m not smart by any stretch of the imagination. I’m the proverbial dummy with a menial job wondering what he did wrong to receive such a krappy karma. But you say God is smart, yet everyday he creates human beings that he knows full well won’t be cut out for life and will end up in eternal ruin. Or perhaps God is very smart but not good. Doing something when you know full well it will end in a totat fiasco is not how I define being smart.

The day they were created, the cursed day their parents conceived them will be a major source of torment for damned souls. Also the thought that it would have been so easy for God to avoid their conception, get their moms to miscarry, get their moms to deliver a stillbirth etc. The possibilities would have been endless for a good God to avoid needless first temporal and then eternal suffering. But it is what it is, God is who he is, he’s a totalitarian ruler, and he doesn’t take dissension well.

 

[southeast_wisco]

By faith, Catholic Christians believe that God is infinitely smart and infinitely good.

To truly believe and communicate that God is not infinitely smart and infinitely good is not consistent with a Catholic Christian living in a state of grace. It is not consistent with the truth Catholic Christian faith.

 

[Robertanthony]

I don’t want to parrot that God is good and smart because everybody says God is good and smart. Creating someone that you know for a fact will die 20, 30, 40, 50 years later and go to eternal agony is neither smart nor good. God is sovereign, very knowledgeable, but not infinitely good, unless you want to define “good” as something it is not. It’s not against the law to think it’s perfect justice to punish someone eternally for a single bad deed. Believing humankind was created in a lab by aliens ages ago is not against the law, either. But neither are reasonable nor true.

 

[southeast_wisco]

The sinful world is not an image of the living God.

 

[wcknight]

Gosh what a dismal outlook you folks have on life, and about God.

Life is a gift and no matter how bad you think you have it, there are so many others in the world who are far worse off than you. You think the rich and famous have it easy and have it made. But from the stories told about some of them, I see what a mess they make of their lives.

It is not what you start out with and not what you have that brings joy and happiness. Some folks can get by a minimal existence and be perfectly happy, while other may seem to have it all and be perfectly miserable.

I had a friend who was stuck in a wheel chair for most of his life, he could move one hand barely but he had a far brighter outlook than anyone here. He made something of himself, was an excellent programmer and died a happy man. He could not have or raise a family like most of us, BUT he made the best of what he had, He was grateful to God for letting him live beyond his accident that crippled him for over 40 years.

Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other guys lawn, but you need to focus on what you do have and not worry about everyone else has. Make the best of what talents God gave you and think positive. We happen to live in a world where anyone can be as successful as their desires and talents takes them. Get a decent education, find something you enjoy doing, do the best you can, and you can be as happy as anyone else in the world. God helps those who help themselves. whining and complaining never helped anyone. it destroys morale and makes you open to laziness and envy,

People are successful because they believe in themselves and are grateful for the talents God gave them. They work hard and are persistent, even if they fail a few times, they get up and try even harder. They come up with new ideas, are not afraid to fail, work harder and persevere. Sure we only live a few decades, but they can be productive and rewarding. Life is what you make of it. No matter how lowly you start off, you can make your life better. You just need determination and the will power to make things better. Your attitude is the only limitation to what or who you can become.

 

[southeast_wisco]

wcknight, i’m not trying to be mean-spirited in the following question. Please take it with Christian charity. Have you ever lived in another country, a developing country?

one option is to go to

www.coenbolivia.blogspot.com

a person can scroll down to her next to most recent post. Friday March 15th, 2013. This young woman is a lay missionary for the Salesians in Bolivia.

another option is the following link.

www.msptm.com/en/

++++++++++++++++++++

In your fifth paragraph, you write, “we happen to live in a world where anyone can be as successful as their desires and talents takes them.”

In your sixth paragraph, you write, “No matter how lowly you start off, you can make your life better. You just need determination and the will power to make things better.”

myself and many people would have reservations about those statements.

Many people would be happy to say to you, "Wcknight, let’s see how far your determination and will power takes you when you don’t have running water. Let’s see how far your determination and will power takes you when you don’t have electricity. Let’s see how far your determination and will power takes you when you don’t have a car and the ability to have a car is nowhere in sight.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Things are just not that simple as will power and determination. There is a tension between individuality and community. There is a tension between using one’s resources to develop oneself and to help one’s neighbor at one’s side with the works of mercy that Jesus wants.

A person may have limited resources. Yet the human being at one’s side, possibly one’s own blood relation is in real material need. Sure, using one’s resources to develop oneself is an option. Yet the work of mercy for the neighbor at one’s side is also very, very real.

 

[Robertanthony]

Gosh what a dismal outlook you folks have on life, and about God.

Life is a gift and no matter how bad you think you have it, there are so many others in the world who are far worse off than you. You think the rich and famous have it easy and have it made. But from the stories told about some of them, I see what a mess they make of their lives.

It is not what you start out with and not what you have that brings joy and happiness. Some folks can get by a minimal existence and be perfectly happy, while other may seem to have it all and be perfectly miserable.

I had a friend who was stuck in a wheel chair for most of his life, he could move one hand barely but he had a far brighter outlook than anyone here. He made something of himself, was an excellent programmer and died a happy man. He could not have or raise a family like most of us, BUT he made the best of what he had, He was grateful to God for letting him live beyond his accident that crippled him for over 40 years.

Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other guys lawn, but you need to focus on what you do have and not worry about everyone else has. Make the best of what talents God gave you and think positive. We happen to live in a world where anyone can be as successful as their desires and talents takes them. Get a decent education, find something you enjoy doing, do the best you can, and you can be as happy as anyone else in the world. God helps those who help themselves. whining and complaining never helped anyone. it destroys morale and makes you open to laziness and envy,

**People are successful because they believe in themselves and are grateful for the talents God gave them. ** They work hard and are persistent, even if they fail a few times, they get up and try even harder. They come up with new ideas, are not afraid to fail, work harder and persevere. Sure we only live a few decades, but they can be productive and rewarding. Life is what you make of it. No matter how lowly you start off, you can make your life better. You just need determination and the will power to make things better. Your attitude is the only limitation to what or who you can become.

I like your drive, your outlook, your optimism, I don’t think, however, that it’s in everybody’s reach to believe in themselves. If you’re sensitive and like a sponge when you’re young, you can believe the hurtful things that were said to you, you see in other people’s eyes what they think of you. Even if I tried to believe in myself, I’d feel like the biggest phony, I couldn’t silence the voice that would remind me, “Who do you think you’re kidding? You’re a dummy and a loser”. I’d like to reinvent myself, have a backbone, shake off the spirit of heaviness, believe in myself, think God means me well and had a good life in mind for me, but I can’t. Inexistence would be better than this torment.

 

[NorthernAdams]

In your fifth paragraph, you write, “we happen to live in a world where anyone can be as successful as their desires and talents takes them.”

In your sixth paragraph, you write, “No matter how lowly you start off, you can make your life better. You just need determination and the will power to make things better.”

myself and many people would have reservations about those statements.

Many people would be happy to say to you, "Wcknight, let’s see how far your determination and will power takes you when you don’t have running water. Let’s see how far your determination and will power takes you when you don’t have electricity. Let’s see how far your determination and will power takes you when you don’t have a car and the ability to have a car is nowhere in sight.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Things are just not that simple as will power and determination. There is a tension between individuality and community. There is a tension between using one’s resources to develop oneself and to help one’s neighbor at one’s side with the works of mercy that Jesus wants.

A person may have limited resources. Yet the human being at one’s side, possibly one’s own blood relation is in real material need. Sure, using one’s resources to develop oneself is an option. Yet the work of mercy for the neighbor at one’s side is also very, very real.

Yes, and in addition to a refusal to understand this, there’s a bent toward blaming someone for not succeeding in these circumstances. That’s like blaming a starving child for their inability to get their hands on a sandwich. And doing that while you’re standing there eating one.

You get rainbows and butterflies and memes and bumper stickers, but when you have all this other stuff going on, you’re constantly in survival mode. You’re not riding unicorns, you’re not slaying dragons, and you’re not trying to make worlds collide and the stars align in the sky. You’re trying to get your lights turned on and get food in the house.

Gee, with all this tolerance and go-teaming and you’re the master of your destiny mentality going on now, we’re still not understanding this. Yes, you can be held down by your circumstances. Yes, other people have the power and ability to do damage to you. Yes, you can fight tooth and nail, and still be held down and held back. Yes, it can happen. It’s reality.

 

[Oren]

I don’t know why God makes certain people that are never going to make it. I’ve thought about it for a long time and I don’t see any good answer. Especially if you think that the person will not be happy in this life or the next.
It kind of makes me mad when Jesus says it would be better for Judas if he had never been born. Well, Jesus, why did you create him then?

 

[LoveGod102]

I understand that willful self-destruction, suicide is a sin. It goes against the God-given dignity of the human person.

Is it a venial sin or mortal sin to tell God, in prayer, wishing that oneself had never been created, never been conceived?

Maybe that is impunging the known truth. The known truth is that God created each person. God is smarter than any human being. So a human being shouldn’t tell God, wishing oneself had never been created.

+++++++++++++

[There is an obvious difference/several steps between telling God in prayer about wishing oneself had never existed versus willful self destruction-suicide.]

If you are just telling God honestly that is is how you feel, it is not a sin. He already knows it, and we need not be afraid to tell God our feelings, even if they are illogical. God knows that we often can’t control how we feel. Our feelings aren’t sinful,and neither is telling God about them.

If you are saying it spitefully, then that would be different.

Either way though, if this is how you feel than it sounds like you have depression, and you should try to get treatment. If nothing else, at least try to get free counseling from a priest. It’s worth it, I know from experience.
I have depression myself, and there are times that I have wished I didn’t exist, because I just wanted the suffering to stop. I desired suicide, but never considered it, because I know that it is wrong, and that it would do no good.
I am being treated for it, and I feels so much better, just from being on an antidepressant, along with all the counseling I’ve received.

 

[LoveGod102]

I don’t know why God makes certain people that are never going to make it. I’ve thought about it for a long time and I don’t see any good answer. Especially if you think that the person will not be happy in this life or the next.
It kind of makes me mad when Jesus says it would be better for Judas if he had never been born. Well, Jesus, why did you create him then?

I think this is a mystery, which we cannot completely understand. I know I don’t understand why God creates people He knows will choose hell. But we have to trust God. Everything He does, He does out of love, even if it doesn’t seem that way at all. Ask God to help you trust Him. Ask the saints, especially the Blessed Mother, to pray for you.

 

[Robertanthony]

I think this is a mystery, which we cannot completely understand. I know I don’t understand why God creates people He knows will choose hell. But we have to trust God. Everything He does, He does out of love, even if it doesn’t seem that way at all. Ask God to help you trust Him. Ask the saints, especially the Blessed Mother, to pray for you.

Have you ever thought how a temporary place of punishment, a personal hell with a beginning and an end followed by the soul ceasing to exist would be a solution that would satisfy everyone? I’d still wonder with some amount of torment why God willed a life of anxiety, depression, lack, adhd, excessive shyness, very limited/non existent learning capacity, why his “best” was that I be born in a dysfunctional family with an angry, domineering, bitter, emotionally frozen, alcoholic yet very pious Catholic as a father, but God not loving me would only be a tough thought to bear for a couple of decades, then I’d suffer for a couple of decades (in a temporary hell) for being an ungrateful sinner, then I’m off to sleep. So long depression, so long torturing my stupid mind, so long wondering why it was decreed from times immemoriam that I would lose and suffer, so long hearing about God’s love when most things in my life contradict that, so long being a loser, so long being me, so long hoping and going from day to hopeless day realizing hope is not warranted. I think tragedy keeps things exciting for God. I’m all for torture to get critical information from a terrorist or a hardened criminal, that’s a means to an end, hell is just vindication and disproportionate retribution. It’s strange to think of all those babies who have died thru the ages and who, if given the “chance”, would have grown up to be and die as enemies of God. Hitler could be in Heaven if God had wanted to. Countless babies would be in hell if God had wanted to. When you dig deeper is when you realize what may look like love is anything but in some cases. 10 starving kids, all I have as food are peanuts, it’s loving of me to feed these kids with peanuts. Unless I know for a fact 2 will die from anaphylactic shock. Some are not cut out for life, some can’t accept who God is or what God says through no fault of theri own. Nobody would want to marry a spouse they have nothing on common with, they have incompatible personalities, you find the sound of their voice annoying, you have no physcial attarctyion whatsoever, then somebody comes along and says that this person loves you very much and that you will suffer unspeakable horror and tragedy if you don’t agree to get married. That’s a strange sytem to be forced into. So much of it doesn’t resist a critical scrutiny.

“Here’s who he is God, what he requires of you, what he promises you if you submit, if you do submit you will die, be resurrected and live happily ever after with God. Otherwise death will be the end of you.”. Depending on a myriad of factors, this life can be crushing if you’re not equipped to face it, but God is more crushing. apart from the 7 or so hours of sleep I get daily where I stop being aware and conscious, I’m looking at an eternity of not being able to forget who I am, that I am, and that God is as well. Let’s say when I was a young boy, I had other plans. I made God laugh with those plans. Y’all know the saying.

 

[southeast_wisco]

Have you ever thought how a temporary place of punishment, a personal hell with a beginning and an end followed by the soul ceasing to exist would be a solution that would satisfy everyone?

I’d still wonder with some amount of torment why God willed a life of anxiety, depression, lack, adhd, excessive shyness, very limited/non existent learning capacity, why his “best” was that I be born in a dysfunctional family with an angry, domineering, bitter, emotionally frozen, alcoholic yet very pious Catholic as a father,

Let’s say when I was a young boy, I had other plans. I made God laugh with those plans. Y’all know the saying.

RobertAnthony, your first statement sounds a little bit like purgatory. However, with Christian Revelation, the soul never ceases to exist. I guess if God has decided to create a soul to exist forever, then it could be consider foolish or sinful to tell God in prayer that oneself wishes to have never existed.

I’m sorry to hear about your natural father.

Another poster commented on the general theme of the thread and medical depression. Another poster commented on the general theme of the thread and psychological or emotional challenges.

It seems that some aspects of modern psychology could help some people. It also seems that pharmological - pharmacy prescriptions may help some people.

We’re supposed to love God above all things. So God inspired some people to learn some psychological advice that could truly help their neighbors. I’m not saying all psychology is good. God also inspired some scientists to develop some pharmacy products to help their neighbors. I’m not saying all pharmacy products are good.

In loving God above all things, there is the aspect of truth and lies, truth and deception, truth and traps, truth and error, truth and slavery, truth and death.

So one truth is that God has a plan for every human being. We may not know it very well. We may only know it in part. Yet it seems that every day we are called to try to discover God’s plan for our individual lives.

I believe George Washington Carver, the peanut scientist and non-catholic Christian, took a walk every morning and tried to think about God’s plan for his life for that day.

I have heard that the evil spirit would want to make a person not know or forget that God has a plan for each human life. To me that is logical for the evil spirit to want to do that.

If a human person knows that God has a plan for each human life, if that person tries to learn God’s plan and follow God’s plan every day…that is a very powerful, good and holy thing to do.

+++++++++++++++

one or more posters mentioned something almost along the lines of predestination and people being created and then ending up in hell. All i can say is that the very, very, very first layer of hell may not be extremely, extremely, extremely terrible. It seems that theologians used to theorize about limbo or a place of natural happiness for unbaptized babies or the invincibly ignorant. That theory is not strongly active anymore. The Catholic Catechism does mention baptism of desire or salvation granted by ways known to God alone. Heaven is supernatural happiness, Christian grace, Christian life in the heart and soul. So my point is that the very, very, very top layer of hell may be a lot better than other parts of hell.

How much difference is there between the absolute lowest level in Heaven and the absolute first layer in Hell? in one way the difference is the difference between Jesus and no Jesus. In another way it may be difficult for us humans to understand.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Have you ever thought how a temporary place of punishment, a personal hell with a beginning and an end followed by the soul ceasing to exist would be a solution that would satisfy everyone? I’d still wonder with some amount of torment why God willed a life of anxiety, depression, lack, adhd, excessive shyness, very limited/non existent learning capacity, why his “best” was that I be born in a dysfunctional family with an angry, domineering, bitter, emotionally frozen, alcoholic yet very pious Catholic as a father, but God not loving me would only be a tough thought to bear for a couple of decades, then I’d suffer for a couple of decades (in a temporary hell) for being an ungrateful sinner, then I’m off to sleep. So long depression, so long torturing my stupid mind, so long wondering why it was decreed from times immemoriam that I would lose and suffer, so long hearing about God’s love when most things in my life contradict that, so long being a loser, so long being me, so long hoping and going from day to hopeless day realizing hope is not warranted. I think tragedy keeps things exciting for God. I’m all for torture to get critical information from a terrorist or a hardened criminal, that’s a means to an end, hell is just vindication and disproportionate retribution. It’s strange to think of all those babies who have died thru the ages and who, if given the “chance”, would have grown up to be and die as enemies of God. Hitler could be in Heaven if God had wanted to. Countless babies would be in hell if God had wanted to. When you dig deeper is when you realize what may look like love is anything but in some cases. 10 starving kids, all I have as food are peanuts, it’s loving of me to feed these kids with peanuts. Unless I know for a fact 2 will die from anaphylactic shock. Some are not cut out for life, some can’t accept who God is or what God says through no fault of theri own. Nobody would want to marry a spouse they have nothing on common with, they have incompatible personalities, you find the sound of their voice annoying, you have no physcial attarctyion whatsoever, then somebody comes along and says that this person loves you very much and that you will suffer unspeakable horror and tragedy if you don’t agree to get married. That’s a strange sytem to be forced into. So much of it doesn’t resist a critical scrutiny.

“Here’s who he is God, what he requires of you, what he promises you if you submit, if you do submit you will die, be resurrected and live happily ever after with God. Otherwise death will be the end of you.”. Depending on a myriad of factors, this life can be crushing if you’re not equipped to face it, but God is more crushing. apart from the 7 or so hours of sleep I get daily where I stop being aware and conscious, I’m looking at an eternity of not being able to forget who I am, that I am, and that God is as well. Let’s say when I was a young boy, I had other plans. I made God laugh with those plans. Y’all know the saying.

For someone who does not believe in himself, you believe in yourself too much, Robertanthony

 

[Robertanthony]

+JMJ+

For someone who does not believe in himself, you believe in yourself too much, Robertanthony

There is this duality in me, I feel inferior in many ways, yet here I am somehow thinking God could take a cue or two from me. Anger puffs me up with pride, it’s pretty pathetic. Talk about a presumptuous fool. I think it’s all part of the adhd syndrome, emotional immaturity, anger management problems, I get into rages at times, less so nowadays, thank God. I’m not the easiest vessel to steer, and if I dwell on that thought, I’ll begin to feel sorry for myself. I feel stuck by all my limitations. And I talk, and I talk, and talk some more…Did I get what you were hinting at at least? I can be thick at times. BTW, that’s the loveliest, most charming fraternal correction I have ever seen.