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JPCalifornia
Guest
Come to CCM! Calvary Chapel Montebello
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Major_Minor
Guest
If you know anything you’ll realize the word “Christian” came later.
Then there was only one Church for the first thousand years.
This may come as a surprise, but this is the 21st century.
You are a Protestant Christian if you are not Catholic Christian or Orthodox Christian.
No amount of whitewashing will change this fact. ALL three are Christian… not just Protestants who try to be clever by denying that they are Protestants by only using the word “Christian”. Protestants DO NOT have exclusive rights to that word.
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guanophore
Guest
Some of it lies in the sacramental nature of the Church. The Life blood (grace) flows through the Sacraments, so people don’t often seem to get motivated to go outside of them to be nurtured.
Some if it has to do with the errors of Jansenism, and the separation of the clergy from the laity. For many years, instead of equipping the saints for the work of the ministry, the priests and deacons did it all (with the help of those in religious orders. The laity had no sense of their role in ministry. Vat. 2 improved that, and lay participation is better, but people still do not meet daily as they did in the early church. You don’t see enough lay orgainzied bible studies and prayer groups. If it were not for the Charismatic Renewal, I don’t know that I would have come back. It is not that I wish to be Protestant again, but I do wish to have that level of fellowship, praise, and contact outside of Mass.
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guanophore
Guest
Indeed, yet there is nothing wrong with being entertained by praising God. I love a good praise session, where loud singing and shouts joy to God are permitted. This is not appropriate expression at the Divine Liturgy, but it is great at a prayer meeting. Somehow it seems that the Catholic Church has lost sight of this outside of the liturgy portion.
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guanophore
Guest
That is just it, tho, Jerry. It is not necessary to relinquish one for the other. You are right, Catholics have a different concept of “worship” than many of our separated brethren. We consider the Divine Liturgy to be the ultimate form of worship.
If you drive by the church boards, they list “sunday worship 10:30”. What they mean by “worship” has no holy sacrifice. It includes songs, prayers, and preaching only. There is nothing wrong with these activities, and indeed, they are included in our liturgy as well, but without Eucharist, we don’t consider it “worship”.
It is good to give thanks and praise to God,a nd it does not have to happen inside the Church, or during Liturgy. These outside prayer meetings and bible studies are very important to some, and many, like the OP, feel there is something missing without them.
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guanophore
Guest
For people like you and I that are introverted, this experience is ultimately fuflilling. However, for those who need fellowship it is not sufficient for their emotional needs. God created both kinds of people, and that is why there is coffee and donuts after Mass!You know CM I just don’t understand people sometimes. Why is it they want to go to Church to see friends, etc. When I go to Church I am there to see my one very best Friend.
Jesus. I could care less about anyone or anything else. That is one hour at least that I spend the entire time alone in my heart with God. Maybe I am a one friend kind of person, but I don’t want to be bothered.
Really, though I think there is more need for home study groups that gather for prayer and scripture study. This is one place that our separated brethren excel, and when some of us return, we feel the loss.
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Jerry_Parker
Guest
Guanophone
**We had written: Jerry Parker: ** *Isn’t the exchange in the C.A. forum that includes these words an indication of wrong priorities about worship? Before the chatty Novus Ordo liturgy (and even with it, when things go well) there was no doubt that something sacred and transcendent was taking place in the Mass, when it was (and in some places still is) celebrated according to the 1962 Latin Missale Romanum. There was not the chatter and clatter of “fellowship” in the church, but silence before the awesome and supreme mystery of what happens at the altar.
I would take that sense of what is hallowèd anyday over the Elks Lodge kind of hearty fellowlship that one can find elsewhere. Anyway, back then (pre-1970) there was the church hall for all that socialising (which, indeed, did take place there, and to better effect), not the church itself, which was consecrated to God, not to fraternising. So, if Protestants and sectaries are better at socialising than Catholics are, but both are doing what is not seemly in “the house of God”, I would say, “A pox on both of them!”
Guanophone: That is just it, though, Jerry. It is not necessary to relinquish one for the other. You are right, Catholics have a different concept of “worship” than many of our separated brethren. We consider the Divine Liturgy to be the ultimate form of worship.
If you drive by the church boards, they list “sunday worship 10:30”. What they mean by “worship” has no holy sacrifice. It includes songs, prayers, and preaching only. There is nothing wrong with these activities, and indeed, they are included in our liturgy as well, but without Eucharist, we don’t consider it “worship”.
Some of the differences, though, are traceable to post-1970 and the “catholic light” Novus Ordo (N.O.) liturgy that replaced the splendid and more saral 1962 and 1965 editions of the Missale Romanum. With the drastic abbreviation of the Mass, sermons became short almost to the point of disappearance, a bad development, in my book! (I suppose that a sermon of the length that sermons tended to be predating 1970 would overbalance the will-of-the-wisp brevity of the N.O. I still receive Lutheran service CDs precisely to have regular access to good and lengthy expository preaching, which has all but disappeared in the Roman Catholic Church as priests neglect and either despise real sermonising or are unequipped for it due to their shoddier theological training. There was a time, though, pre-Vatical II, when much of Catholic preaching was as thorough, extended, and deep as what still has been striven for in Protestant and sectarian venues of worship, and, of course, without sacrificing anything of what pertains to liturgical worship.
Too many Catholic parish churches now do not even have church halls or basements suitable to gatherings after Mass, which is why so much chatter and clatter occur in (as relegated to) the Church itself, where it does not belong. Things have not improved for the better since 1970.
Pax, Jerry Parker
**We had written: Jerry Parker: ** *Isn’t the exchange in the C.A. forum that includes these words an indication of wrong priorities about worship? Before the chatty Novus Ordo liturgy (and even with it, when things go well) there was no doubt that something sacred and transcendent was taking place in the Mass, when it was (and in some places still is) celebrated according to the 1962 Latin Missale Romanum. There was not the chatter and clatter of “fellowship” in the church, but silence before the awesome and supreme mystery of what happens at the altar.
I would take that sense of what is hallowèd anyday over the Elks Lodge kind of hearty fellowlship that one can find elsewhere. Anyway, back then (pre-1970) there was the church hall for all that socialising (which, indeed, did take place there, and to better effect), not the church itself, which was consecrated to God, not to fraternising. So, if Protestants and sectaries are better at socialising than Catholics are, but both are doing what is not seemly in “the house of God”, I would say, “A pox on both of them!”
Guanophone: That is just it, though, Jerry. It is not necessary to relinquish one for the other. You are right, Catholics have a different concept of “worship” than many of our separated brethren. We consider the Divine Liturgy to be the ultimate form of worship.
If you drive by the church boards, they list “sunday worship 10:30”. What they mean by “worship” has no holy sacrifice. It includes songs, prayers, and preaching only. There is nothing wrong with these activities, and indeed, they are included in our liturgy as well, but without Eucharist, we don’t consider it “worship”.
It is good to give thanks and praise to God,a nd it does not have to happen inside the Church, or during Liturgy. These outside prayer meetings and bible studies are very important to some, and many, like the OP, feel there is something missing without them. *
Yes, you got it right, Guano! Some of the differences, though, are traceable to post-1970 and the “catholic light” Novus Ordo (N.O.) liturgy that replaced the splendid and more saral 1962 and 1965 editions of the Missale Romanum. With the drastic abbreviation of the Mass, sermons became short almost to the point of disappearance, a bad development, in my book! (I suppose that a sermon of the length that sermons tended to be predating 1970 would overbalance the will-of-the-wisp brevity of the N.O. I still receive Lutheran service CDs precisely to have regular access to good and lengthy expository preaching, which has all but disappeared in the Roman Catholic Church as priests neglect and either despise real sermonising or are unequipped for it due to their shoddier theological training. There was a time, though, pre-Vatical II, when much of Catholic preaching was as thorough, extended, and deep as what still has been striven for in Protestant and sectarian venues of worship, and, of course, without sacrificing anything of what pertains to liturgical worship.Too many Catholic parish churches now do not even have church halls or basements suitable to gatherings after Mass, which is why so much chatter and clatter occur in (as relegated to) the Church itself, where it does not belong. Things have not improved for the better since 1970.
Pax, Jerry Parker
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Middleman
Guest
Thanks for a fair and reasonable answer.
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guanophore
Guest
I have to confess that I do get very annoyed when I arrive early for some quiet moments and there is chatting and laughing around me. I want to get up and ask them to take it outside, but in one Church I frequent, there IS NO outside! No lobby, no restrooms, no place to meet and greet.Code:.... There was not the chatter and clatter of "fellowship" in the church, but silence before the awesome and supreme mystery of what happens at the altar.… the church itself, which was consecrated to God, not to fraternising. …
Yes, you got it right, Guano!
Too many Catholic parish churches now do not even have church halls or basements suitable to gatherings after Mass, which is why so much chatter and clatter occur in (as relegated to) the Church itself, where it does not belong. Things have not improved for the better since 1970.
Pax, Jerry Parker
It is a pre-Vat2 parish that was structured for the Latin Solemn Mass, not for visiting.
My feeling is that the fellowship needs to be separated from the Liturgy, and should occur in homes when possible, small bible study/prayer groups. Then if they want to get together once a month, or once a quarter to have a large gathering, use the parish hall. I realize I have a lot of prejudice in this area.
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tiffinwood
Guest
My parish was founded in 1957 and I’ve been a member since 1972. We have over 2500 families. During my working years and raising children I was not very active in the opportunities for fellowship that were available. Now that my children are grown and my workload has lightened, I have found many opportunities for fellowship. One example is Cursillo. This is a movement not limited to a parish but is diocese wide. I made my cursillo 5 years ago and am still meeting weekly with 5 of the women I began group reunions with. I’ve been to bible study groups at my parish, Knights of Columbus dances with my husband, women’s club fashion shows, the list goes on and on.
If you don’t feel like starting something in your parish look at what’s available on the diocese level. Surely they have Cursillo, Ladies of Charity, Knights of Columbus, St. Vincent de Paul, etc, etc. I love my faith and the people I have met through my faith.
If you don’t feel like starting something in your parish look at what’s available on the diocese level. Surely they have Cursillo, Ladies of Charity, Knights of Columbus, St. Vincent de Paul, etc, etc. I love my faith and the people I have met through my faith.
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distracted
Guest
. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.] As the Father sent Christ to forgive sin, so Christ sends the apostles, and equips them with power, the Holy Spirit to do likewise. Just as God’s breath in Gn2:7 gave life to Adam’s body, so God’s breath --the Holy Spirit-- restores the indwelling life of the soul, reconcilling through confession, the spiritually dead after baptism. As a priestly people we should offer up as a sacrifice all our daily crosses. Welcome home!
thanks…
i know all of what you posted… almost didn’t finish reading it, but did… glad i did cuz i really like the way you worded that bolded part…
“the wages of sin is death”
Some people would look at that and say… Well, i sinned & I’m still alive…" so … no comprendo… but the psg is speaking of the death of the spirit … or soul… By the way, is there much of a difference between those 2???
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Jerry_Parker
Guest
Guano,
**You wrote (in response to what I had written earlier): ** * I have to confess that I do get very annoyed when I arrive early for some quiet moments and there is chatting and laughing around me. I want to get up and ask them to take it outside, but in one Church I frequent, there IS NO outside! No lobby, no restrooms, no place to meet and greet.
Somehow, the situation, though not absent, seems less prevalent in French-Canadian parishes than in English-speaking ones. Why that is so, I don’t know, but perhaps the French hold on to some of the old piety more tenaciously than other Catholics do (at least in recent decades, but who knows how that could change?).
Pax, Jerry
**You wrote (in response to what I had written earlier): ** * I have to confess that I do get very annoyed when I arrive early for some quiet moments and there is chatting and laughing around me. I want to get up and ask them to take it outside, but in one Church I frequent, there IS NO outside! No lobby, no restrooms, no place to meet and greet.
It is a pre-Vat-2 parish that was structured for the Latin Solemn Mass, not for visiting.*
Yes, this is a common problem, perhaps the more so in the parish churches of shrinking dioceses, as here throughout Québec. The churches themselves, rightly, were built solely for worship purposes, with church halls (or basements) and quarters for the resident clergy in large presbyteries, which could accomodate public gatherings, too, in many cases. As the parishes shrink and their funds and those of a diocese so affected diminish and cannot support so much infrastructure, these spaces originally meant for socialising and ancillary purposes are sold or rented out, leaving the parish with no space but the church itself. So, a lot of chatter, clatter, and socialising takes place in the church and the folks grow used to this unseemly noise in a worship space.Somehow, the situation, though not absent, seems less prevalent in French-Canadian parishes than in English-speaking ones. Why that is so, I don’t know, but perhaps the French hold on to some of the old piety more tenaciously than other Catholics do (at least in recent decades, but who knows how that could change?).
Pax, Jerry
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rinnie
Guest
Yes but you must admit guan. we have come a long way. I mentioned it actually to Father that we should have more scripture study. He said I agree and can put you right in charge of it
We are in the Pastoral council in our church and you will see alot of things in the Church are starting to change. We are going to try to be more into meeting these needs of the Parish and our brothers and sisters in Christ and the community.
But it takes time Guan, and you know how busy it is for everyone today in this world. Before we put all that on Father. And before you had alot more Priests and Nuns doing th e work.
My goal for our Church is going to be slow down and take more time for God instead of just Sunday Church.
And until the last few years I was the Sunday kind of person. Until Father got a hold of us and now is pushing us to reconnect with the Holy Spirit and share our gifts and try to reconnect others with their gifts for the Good of the Church and for the good of Christ.
But its gonna take alot of time, and its going to change the Church alot in fellowship. It is for sure a work in progress and its hard. But its going to work because when you have God in on the plan, and its through him, with him and in him that we are going to work, we cannot fail. But like this world today, anything with God you got that little man with the horns trying to stop you at every end. But God always snips those horns don’t he
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guanophore
Guest
Oh yes, I agree entirely. I think it is ok for us to accept that our separated brethren have developed significant skills in these areas, and that they bring this richness with them when they come home. Some are disappointed by the lack of fellowship outside of Liturgy. I think such persons are called to put their gifts to work, and allow themselves to be used of God to enrich the Church.Yes but you must admit guan. we have come a long way. I mentioned it actually to Father that we should have more scripture study. He said I agree and can put you right in charge of it
We are in the Pastoral council in our church and you will see alot of things in the Church are starting to change. We are going to try to be more into meeting these needs of the Parish and our brothers and sisters in Christ and the community.
But it takes time Guan, and you know how busy it is for everyone today in this world. Before we put all that on Father. And before you had alot more Priests and Nuns doing th e work.
My goal for our Church is going to be slow down and take more time for God instead of just Sunday Church.
And until the last few years I was the Sunday kind of person. Until Father got a hold of us and now is pushing us to reconnect with the Holy Spirit and share our gifts and try to reconnect others with their gifts for the Good of the Church and for the good of Christ.
But its gonna take alot of time, and its going to change the Church alot in fellowship. It is for sure a work in progress and its hard. But its going to work because when you have God in on the plan, and its through him, with him and in him that we are going to work, we cannot fail. But like this world today, anything with God you got that little man with the horns trying to stop you at every end. But God always snips those horns don’t he
The thing with many Protestant churches is that they don’t have sacraments. Without sacraments, all they have is the social/community aspect of worship so they emphasize it as much as possible. Catholics, on the other hand, have all the sacraments instituted by God and our worship revolves around that. Unfortunately, Catholics churches, in general, only emphasize this. The church I attend doesn’t have anything outside of high school youth group. I tried another church and it was the same thing. I’ve since been to every (decent/good) Catholic church within a resonable driving range and have encountered the same thing. Being Catholic, for me, involves going to Sunday Mass and that’s about it.
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Lypher
Guest
I am still in RCIA and have found the same thing in my current parish, however in my past Parish the Knights were very active and they seemed to have a lot of fun as well as contributed to the life of the Church. I am really looking forward to joining them when I finally get confirmed…What are your thoughts on the Knights?
I don’t know much about them. They are at most churchs in my area and act as ushers and what not. I’d be surprised if any of them are under 70 years old, however.
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eucharisteo
Guest
The quality of the Knights just depends on several factors. We have many Knights that are averaging in the 40’s or 50’s age wise. I had issues with one that may have exposed me to someone else that treats us strange now. He didn’t tell me that a plumbing job was going to cost us $1,000 more than he originally told us and did the work anyway. That’s considered unethical in my book as a professional. My pastor went to him to confront him about it. It’s a boys club, so don’t expect too much out of them. Some are strong Catholics and others not so much. It all depends on individuals, parish priest and a number of factors. I would recommend that all practical Catholics go through the exemplifications for the purpose of learning our real purpose. It’s not to start a new crusade though.
We support our parish priest as men side by side. We do a lot of charitable works of mercy.
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Jerry_Parker
Guest
Rinnie and Guano,
**You wrote: *Rinnie: * I mentioned it actually to Father that we should have more scripture study. He said “I agree and can put you right in charge of it.”
The countervailing Lutheran caution that I mentioned is due to the potential of such study groups, without supervision by theologically well trained and orthodox clergy (ordained pastors or deacons), to slip into errors and distortion, seeing in the Bible what they do not see in the Church’s teaching, the latter of which is wiser (at least, usually, suchlike, after all, not being Catholic) than they are. Some Protestant and sectarian congregations also have complained about “clics” (factions) 
that develop among their members, with “insiders” and “outsiders” of the study cell singled out for identity among themselves.
If there are such purely lay-led groups, it would be good for a priest to check up on them regularly to avoid the growth of error. (Of course, some clergy themselves these days are sunk deeply into the mire of error and even outright heresy, and in such cases, the faithful should rally without them to counteract bad modernist influence among local clergy without lettting themselves be bullied into submitting to false teaching; but that is a lay remedy for genuinely serious situations.)
Lay-led groups that meet for structured prayers, e.g. the Rosary and novenas, are less apt to dig themselves into a doctrinal ditch.
Pax, Jerry Parker
**You wrote: *Rinnie: * I mentioned it actually to Father that we should have more scripture study. He said “I agree and can put you right in charge of it.”
**Guano: Oh yes, I agree entirely. I think it is okay for us to accept that our separated brethren have developed significant skills in these areas, and that they bring this richness with them when they come home.
Well, yes, study groups, especially for Holy Scripture, can do much good. One must approach such “cell groups” (as neo-evangelical “Church Growth Movement” sectaries like to describe them) with caution, as, among Protestants, the relatively conservative Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod insist on doing, all study groups being led, in their cases, by clergy or trustworthy seminarians. Too many Protestant and sectarian local churches have been ripped apart when cell groups insist on doctrine and scriptural interpretation that is in conflict with the teaching of their own denominations or sects.The countervailing Lutheran caution that I mentioned is due to the potential of such study groups, without supervision by theologically well trained and orthodox clergy (ordained pastors or deacons), to slip
into errors and distortion, seeing in the Bible what they do not see in the Church’s teaching, the latter of which is wiser (at least, usually, suchlike, after all, not being Catholic) than they are. Some Protestant and sectarian congregations also have complained about “clics” (factions) that develop among their members, with “insiders” and “outsiders” of the study cell singled out for identity among themselves.If there are such purely lay-led groups, it would be good for a priest to check up on them regularly to avoid the growth of error. (Of course, some clergy themselves these days are sunk deeply into the mire of error and even outright heresy, and in such cases, the faithful should rally without them to counteract bad modernist influence among local clergy without lettting themselves be bullied into submitting to false teaching; but that is a lay remedy for genuinely serious situations.)
Lay-led groups that meet for structured prayers, e.g. the Rosary and novenas, are less apt to dig themselves into a doctrinal ditch.
Pax, Jerry Parker
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rinnie
Guest
You are so right Jerry and ironically I did ask that of Father. I said Father how would one do this. Father said there are instructions in which to go by to lead us. He said he is going to check into getting the material so we can introduce this into the Church.Rinnie and Guano,
**You wrote: *Rinnie: *** I mentioned it actually to Father that we should have more scripture study. He said “I agree and can put you right in charge of it.”
**Guano: **Oh yes, I agree entirely. I think it is okay for us to accept that our separated brethren have developed significant skills in these areas, and that they bring this richness with them when they come home.
Well, yes, study groups, especially for Holy Scripture, can do much good. One must approach such “cell groups” (as neo-evangelical “Church Growth Movement” sectaries like to describe them) with caution, as, among Protestants, the relatively conservative Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod insist on doing, all study groups being led, in their cases, by clergy or trustworthy seminarians. Too many Protestant and sectarian local churches have been ripped apart when cell groups insist on doctrine and scriptural interpretation that is in conflict with the teaching of their own denominations or sects.
The countervailing Lutheran caution that I mentioned is due to the potential of such study groups, without supervision by theologically well trained and orthodox clergy (ordained pastors or deacons), to slip
If there are such purely lay-led groups, it would be good for a priest to check up on them regularly to avoid the growth of error. (Of course, some clergy themselves these days are sunk deeply into the mire of error and even outright heresy, and in such cases, the faithful should rally without them to counteract bad modernist influence among local clergy without lettting themselves be bullied into submitting to false teaching; but that is a lay remedy for genuinely serious situations.)
Lay-led groups that meet for structured prayers, e.g. the Rosary and novenas, are less apt to dig themselves into a doctrinal ditch.
Pax, Jerry Parker
So it would probally not be that hard. I think I possibly could even actually handle it Jerry because I would have the answers before the questions are asked
But I think that the Church is really comming a long way in addressing alot of the problems we do have wih the Church, which one is the Priest not having enough time to do everything.
We have to learn to dig deep into ourself and ask what is the Holy Spirit asking of us, and how are we going to do what is asked.
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