Witchcraft, wizardry, demons

[Lokadottir]

We’ve debunked this already.

There were a few. I agree its inflated by some people for their purposes. But few is MORE than a fair share.

 

[oldcelt]

I totally agree. I have alot of respect for Catholicism, even as a former catholic. I can not say the same of Evangelical Protestantism.

You and I have much the same thought on that matter. I will add that superstition, regardless of the source, is not something that I view as a positive.

 

[mikekle]

The concern isn’t so much “harm to others” as it is that when you open your soul up to any form of ‘magic’ other than the grace of God, you put your soul in peril of possession, among other things. There are two types of spiritual beings other than God: angels and demons. If you aren’t calling on angels or God, consider who you are calling upon/who would be answering your requests during any form of witchcraft. Same for if you are seeking powers God has not granted us.

Ive often wondered why I do not hear more news stories of people using supernatural powers or some type of magic in the commission of crimes around the world. I know alot of people believe and practice the black arts and many likely have powers that would amaze other people if they were to see them in use.

It seems to me Satan would want more and more people to recognize this magic is attainable with practice and virtually anyone could wield supernatural powers, strange that we dont see more of this on the nightly news…??

For example, if a witch had gained the ability to make themselves totally invisible to others, I would expect alot of them to be robbing banks, stores etc. but I rarely even hear of news stories involving witchcraft or magic, Maybe it is just one of those topics the mainstream media ‘blacks out’ and will not report on, and such things do actually take place more often then I suspect…??

 

[KyrieEleison17]

I’m not talking Black Mass though. Just pagan ritual in general.

Backwards. Paganism is a perversion of the virtue of religion and man’s religious sentiments as such. Insomuch as reason and nature moved man to worship God and give thanks (thanksgiving is arguably the essence of religion), or moved by the realization of his own frailty and finitude to humbly seek assistance from that which is greater than he, then religion is just fine and leads to further virtues; however, what we understand as paganism is specifically a corruption of religion - indeed by definition, which both Catholics and the traditional “pagan” Philosophers abhorred, though philosophy was necessarily restricted to a few whereas Christianity was available to the many.

Modern “pagans” would do well to rather talk about natural religion or as being adherents to aspects of the classical religiosity of antiquity. The word “pagan” is derived from a Latin word which has the modern equivalent in English as hick, redneck, mountain folk or trailer trash. It implied that someone was almost incorrigibly backward and stupid.

 

[Lokadottir]

Modern “pagans” would do well to rather talk about natural religion or as being adherents to aspects of the classical religiosity of antiquity. The word “pagan” is derived from a Latin word which has the modern equivalent in English as hick, redneck, mountain folk or trailer trash. It implied that someone was almost incorrigibly backward and stupid.

This was something promoted by Christians.
Also my mama is from Appalachia (She is literally a hillbilly) and I didn’t suck my IQ of 135 out of my thumb!

 

[KyrieEleison17]

This was something promoted by Christians.

Do you even know what you’re talking about here? Christians promoted living in rural areas with limited society? Catholicism was originally an urban religion and hence probably partly the reason “pagan” became a natural pejorative for non-Christians: i.e. a hillbilly.

Also my mama is from Appalachia (She is literally a hillbilly) and I didn’t suck my IQ of 135 out of my thumb!

I don’t understand why you think that would be at all relevant.

Perhaps you should give Saint Augustine’s the City of God a read to help understand why the Western world views paganism as intellectually indefensible. Even the “pagan” philosophers abhorred, as I said, many of the absurdities of paganism, which were legion. Paganism was considered intellectually indefensible by men like Cicero and even Saint Augustine couldn’t take classical paganism seriously because of his (secular) education and preferred a religion that was really bizarre reaction against Christianity while trying to retain certain classical, traditional or popular beliefs. In the end, pagans were of two categories: people who were far removed from general society or traditional elites who hated Christianity because they thought it foreign (xenophobes) and disqualified it for this “fault”.

Paganism didn’t even have an intellectual framework or structure -it was not and never felt obliged to actually be a coherent intellectual system- until opposition began to be mounted against it first -though quietly- by philosophy, which lead more men to feel a need to justify their customs and beliefs on rational grounds, but chiefly because of opposition from Christianity, which very early on took philosophy seriously and insisted on defending doctrine on rational grounds, which is why Catholics talk about defending their Faith to this day as engaging in “apologetics” (apologia): i.e. giving a reason as a justification for one’s beliefs. It became clear to pagans very early on that they had nothing to say against Christian doctrine of any merit or worth and had to rely on philosophy in a desperate attempt to debunk Christianity, which was somewhat odd and even humorous considering that philosophy traditionally was a refuge from paganism. But the logic seemed to be that if philosophy could debunk Christianity, and Christianity was alone in openly and vocally opposing and contradicting paganism, except for the Jews, who were generally despised and hated, then you could still be a pagan, even if your philosophical training made that same paganism ridiculous.

 

[Lokadottir]

Do you even know what you’re talking about here? Christians promoted living in rural areas with limited society? Catholicism was originally an urban religion and hence probably partly the reason “pagan” became a natural pejorative for non-Christians: i.e. a hillbilly.

Christians promoted the use of the word pagan for non-christians. Am I clear now?

I don’t understand why you think that would be at all relevant.

More that the stereotype is idiotic and is a tad personal to me.

Perhaps you should give Saint Augustine’s the City of God a read to help understand why the Western world views paganism as intellectually indefensible. Even the “pagan” philosophers abhorred, as I said, many of the absurdities of paganism, which were legion. Paganism was considered intellectually indefensible by men like Cicero and even Saint Augustine couldn’t take classical paganism seriously because of his (secular) education and preferred a religion that was really bizarre reaction against Christianity while trying to retain certain classical, traditional or popular beliefs. In the end, pagans were of two categories: people who were far removed from general society or traditional elites who hated Christianity because they thought it foreign (xenophobes) and disqualified it for this “fault”.

Paganism didn’t even have an intellectual framework or structure -it was not and never felt obliged to actually be a coherent intellectual system- until opposition began to be mounted against it first -though quietly- by philosophy, which lead more men to feel a need to justify their customs and beliefs on rational grounds, but chiefly because of opposition from Christianity, which very early on took philosophy seriously and insisted on defending doctrine on rational grounds, which is why Catholics talk about defending their Faith to this day as engaging in “apologetics” (apologia): i.e. giving a reason as a justification for one’s beliefs. It became clear to pagans very early on that they had nothing to say against Christian doctrine of any merit or worth and had to rely on philosophy in a desperate attempt to debunk Christianity, which was somewhat odd and even humorous considering that philosophy traditionally was a refuge from paganism. But the logic seemed to be that if philosophy could debunk Christianity, and Christianity was alone in openly and vocally opposing and contradicting paganism, except for the Jews, who were generally despised and hated, then you could still be a pagan, even if your philosophical training made that same paganism ridiculous.

I would love to see your sources for each of these claims. They are all extremely broad.

Pagans as a general rule don’t CARE what you believe as long as you leave them be. Pagans believe in many Gods.

It’s a bit like the fact that there are multiple fast food chains out there. You may have a favorite but you go to others too. Now someone drops in, founds a new chain, and demands folks to explain why they don’t reject the other restaurants, never again eating there, for his new restaurant.

You demand that Paganism fit into the Christian worldview. Christianity intrinsically doesn’t allow this. That disproves neither. Math has almost no place in English class.

 

[Skadi]

Backwards. Paganism is a perversion of the virtue of religion and man’s religious sentiments as such. Insomuch as reason and nature moved man to worship God and give thanks (thanksgiving is arguably the essence of religion), or moved by the realization of his own frailty and finitude to humbly seek assistance from that which is greater than he, then religion is just fine and leads to further virtues; however, what we understand as paganism is specifically a corruption of religion - indeed by definition, which both Catholics and the traditional “pagan” Philosophers abhorred, though philosophy was necessarily restricted to a few whereas Christianity was available to the many.

Modern “pagans” would do well to rather talk about natural religion or as being adherents to aspects of the classical religiosity of antiquity. The word “pagan” is derived from a Latin word which has the modern equivalent in English as hick, redneck, mountain folk or trailer trash. It implied that someone was almost incorrigibly backward and stupid.

You havnt REALY said anything, other than insult the religion of half the planets population. You have not at all said HOW paganism is a corruption of the concept of religion and in fact it meets all the criteria of religion stated.

In fact, overwhelming historical, archeological, and anthropological evidence suggests Paganism came along far earlier than Judaism and in fact Judaism is an ofshoot of Cannanite paganism. How could paganism be a corruption of religion when the Judeo-Muslim-Christian tradition is far younger, and by definition is the only group of religions that are NOT pagan?

All evidence points to religion starting as anamism and polytheism before the developement of duo and monothiesm, not the other way around.

 

[Skadi]

Perhaps you should give Saint Augustine’s the City of God a read to help understand why the Western world views paganism as intellectually indefensible. Even the “pagan” philosophers abhorred, as I said, many of the absurdities of paganism, which were legion. Paganism was considered intellectually indefensible by men like Cicero and even Saint Augustine couldn’t take classical paganism seriously because of his (secular) education and preferred a religion that was really bizarre reaction against Christianity while trying to retain certain classical, traditional or popular beliefs. In the end, pagans were of two categories: people who were far removed from general society or traditional elites who hated Christianity because they thought it foreign (xenophobes) and disqualified it for this “fault”.

Paganism didn’t even have an intellectual framework or structure -it was not and never felt obliged to actually be a coherent intellectual system- until opposition began to be mounted against it first -though quietly- by philosophy, which lead more men to feel a need to justify their customs and beliefs on rational grounds, but chiefly because of opposition from Christianity, which very early on took philosophy seriously and insisted on defending doctrine on rational grounds, which is why Catholics talk about defending their Faith to this day as engaging in “apologetics” (apologia): i.e. giving a reason as a justification for one’s beliefs. It became clear to pagans very early on that they had nothing to say against Christian doctrine of any merit or worth and had to rely on philosophy in a desperate attempt to debunk Christianity, which was somewhat odd and even humorous considering that philosophy traditionally was a refuge from paganism. But the logic seemed to be that if philosophy could debunk Christianity, and Christianity was alone in openly and vocally opposing and contradicting paganism, except for the Jews, who were generally despised and hated, then you could still be a pagan, even if your philosophical training made that same paganism ridiculous.

Your understanding of history and philosophy is very skewed. While few philosophers took pagan myth literally they offered strong intellectual defense of the pagan worldview and I have never seen any Christian work that has convinced me of the superior logical qualitys of trinitarian monothiesm versus Neo-platonic soft polythiesm.

If you will sugest reading for the pagans then I sugest some to you aswell, Emperor Julian’s “against the galileans”. Christianity has had 1600 years to refute it and still hasn’t, instead they burned it, and by some miracle atleast a few parts remain. A true masterwork.

 

[SMGS127]

Ive often wondered why I do not hear more news stories of people using supernatural powers or some type of magic in the commission of crimes around the world. I know alot of people believe and practice the black arts and many likely have powers that would amaze other people if they were to see them in use.

It seems to me Satan would want more and more people to recognize this magic is attainable with practice and virtually anyone could wield supernatural powers, strange that we dont see more of this on the nightly news…??

For example, if a witch had gained the ability to make themselves totally invisible to others, I would expect alot of them to be robbing banks, stores etc. but I rarely even hear of news stories involving witchcraft or magic, Maybe it is just one of those topics the mainstream media ‘blacks out’ and will not report on, and such things do actually take place more often then I suspect…??

Uhh you give Satan more credit for his power than he should get. Anything he can do and is allowed to do is allowed only by God, usually for His own means for our salvation. Simply put, Satan can’t make black magic work because God doesn’t allow it . There’d be no benefit to the salvation of (wo)men if He did, though I don’t pretend to know the reasons why God allows or denies any behavior among the spiritual bodies of demons OR angels.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

The Inquisition actually stopped witch trials in Spain.

Skepticism

Although the belief in Basque witches was widespread among the Spanish populace, the Spanish Inquisition of the Basque Region was more inclined to persecute Protestants, Conversos (baptized descendants of Jews and Moors), and those who illegally smuggled banned books into Spain. As far back as 1538 the Council of Inquisition had warned judges not to believe all that they read in Malleus Maleficarum, the infamous witch-finding text. In March 1610, Antonio Venegas de Figueroa, the Bishop of Pamplona, sent a letter to the Inquisition in which he claimed that the witch hunt was based “on lies and self-delusion”[6] and that there had been little knowledge of witchcraft in the region before the outset of the trials.
Contrary to the usual picture of the Inquisition, ready to believe all and every confession of wrongdoing, Salazar, the youngest judge in a panel of three, was also skeptical about the whole thing, saying that he had found no substantive proof of witchcraft on his travels, in spite of the manifold confessions. More than that, he questioned the whole basis of the trials. Because of this disagreement on how to proceed, the matter had to be referred to the Inquisitor-General in Madrid. The senior judges, Alonso Becerra y Holquin and Juan del Valle Alvarado, even went so far as to accuse their colleague of being “in league with the Devil”. Some of Salazar’s objections are remarkable, considering the atmosphere of the times, and are therefore worth quoting:
The real question is: are we to believe that witchcraft occurred in a given situation simply because of what the witches claim? No: it is clear that the witches are not to be believed, and the judges should not pass sentence on anyone, unless the case can be proven with external and objective evidence sufficient to convince everyone who hears it. And who can accept the following: that a person can frequently fly through the air and travel a hundred leagues in an hour; that a woman can get through a space not big enough for a fly; that a person can make himself invisible; that he can be in a river or the open sea and not get wet; or that he can be in bed at the sabbath at the same time… and that a witch can turn herself into any shape she fancies, be it housefly or raven? Indeed, these claims go beyond all human reason and may even pass the limits permitted by the Devil.
The Inquisitor-General appeared to share his view that confession and accusation on their own were not enough. For some time the central office of the Inquisition had been sceptical about claims of magic and witchcraft, and had only sanctioned the earlier burnings with considerable reluctance, and only because of the reported mood of panic from Logroño. In August 1614 it ruled that all of the trials pending at Logroño should be dismissed. At the same time it issued new and more rigorous rules of evidence, that brought witch-burning in Spain to an end, long before the Protestant North.

---

 

[mikekle]

Uhh you give Satan more credit for his power than he should get. Anything he can do and is allowed to do is allowed only by God, usually for His own means for our salvation. Simply put, Satan can’t make black magic work because God doesn’t allow it . There’d be no benefit to the salvation of (wo)men if He did, though I don’t pretend to know the reasons why God allows or denies any behavior among the spiritual bodies of demons OR angels.

Well, it seems God has allowed alot of black magic to work, going back centuries up to modern times, as quite a few people practice this, and it seems to work for every time for them…?

 

[Bobby_Jim]

I’m not exactly sure what they are trying to say, but Wiccans (and not all witches are Wiccans) follow the Wiccan Rede which states “and it harm none do as though wilt”. As this is the central tenant of Wicca, it can be assumed that a initiated Wiccan who purposefully breaks this rule has diverged from the craft as laid down by Gardner and no longer falls into the realm of “No true Scotsman”.

It would be handy to use similar logic to disavow any Catholic who gives us a bad name by doing things contrary to the Catholic faith, i.e. such and such priest abused children, but that is contrary to Catholicism so he wasn’t really Catholic. You hear that logic sometimes from certain branches of “once saved always saved” Christians; if one falls away after being “saved” then they must not have really been “saved” in the first place. However that is a bit too pat; rather it’s useful to acknowledge that adherents of all faith practices sometimes don’t measure up to their ideals, without disowning them.

 

[Skadi]

It would be handy to use similar logic to disavow any Catholic who gives us a bad name by doing things contrary to the Catholic faith, i.e. such and such priest abused children, but that is contrary to Catholicism so he wasn’t really Catholic. You hear that logic sometimes from certain branches of “once saved always saved” Christians; if one falls away after being “saved” then they must not have really been “saved” in the first place. However that is a bit too pat; rather it’s useful to acknowledge that adherents of all faith practices sometimes don’t measure up to their ideals, without disowning them.

I totaly agree, both about predestination and people’s shortcomings. But it’s difficult to REALY draw a line, after all if a priest can molest a small child and still be called catholic, what does it take for a person who attends church to no longer be catholic? Or is ones catholicness determined by religious observe vs and morality the basis of a “good” or “bad” catholic?

 

[djames99]

We “ALL” have no permission to delve into these, no matter what religion or lack thereof. They are the devil’s way to detract us from the contemplation of Holy things and dedicating our lives for God’s glory. These activities have us focus on ways that can gain us nothing of true life, and to cause us to waste valuable time reserved for God’s work which we are assigned has our purpose.

 

[Timi_Celcer]

In Council of Paderborn(785), the Roman Catholic Church explicitly outlawed condemning people as witches. Council of Frankfurt called the belief in witches superstitious, and even st.Augustine of Hippo believed that believing in witches is false and heterodox.

 

[hu324b]

Theres no such thing as witches and wizards - its a fantasy in their own mind - the amazing Randy has had a million dollar reward for anyone who can prove they have powers and no-one has ever been able to claim that prize and many others who offer similar things - its been well over ten years and everyone of them has been debunked. Demon are another thing.

If you claim to have power and can prove it you can become very rich - I know he is not the best person to bring up but the fact remains that no-one has ever been able to claim this prize or any other and many have tried.

 

[Skadi]

Theres no such thing as witches and wizards - its a fantasy in their own mind - the amazing Randy has had a million dollar reward for anyone who can prove they have powers and no-one has ever been able to claim that prize and many others who offer similar things - its been well over ten years and everyone of them has been debunked. Demon are another thing.

If you claim to have power and can prove it you can become very rich - I know he is not the best person to bring up but the fact remains that no-one has ever been able to claim this prize or any other and many have tried.

I’ve never met a magic practitioner who claims to be able to turn one thing into another, ect. Modern magic is very shamantic in practice, focused on effecting subtle change. So it does not suprise me at all noone has ever claimed this money. Magic isn’t calling down lightning bolts and turning people into newts, if anyone ever had that power (which I highly doubt) that knowledge was lost long ago.

 

[djames99]

Indeed, and we cannot condemn anyone, as this is part of a judicial process. We can condemn the practice however.

The evidence of the existence of these people by various names of their profession is common in scripture. The fact they can conjure is not disputed. The evidence of evil activity is evident in many other forms, so it is not surprising.

The belief in those who practice necromacy such has this in all it’s forms is definitely in scripture. And death is what it is, a practice of what the hereafter bodes and what is in store. There they get to practice it, only this time wishing for death itself which never comes in a place that will not allow it. These practices do not receive their powers from Divine sources, but are given to those who acknowledge the prince of this world has god, which the diversion does automatically through ignoring the commands of God and swearing allegiance to the dark powers. It is of sorts a contracted way of life, which follows from the initial ruse of general temptation. A life seems normal and it is. The prince
doesn’t disturb his plan if it goes well.

These people who attempt to come out of this mire have a great deal of difficulty in ridding the forces that held them hostage. The earlier they slough off this evil, the more facile the return journey to righteousness will be, and the forces don’t let go easily. The influence presents it’s case in the celestial court that they hold a rightful claim to this individual, and indeed they do. This is why it is common that they are plagued by these forces long after a change from a life of error.

Now we have degrees of intent and motive. A few adolescent kids playing with an oujia board may leave an aftermath of paranormal activity until they correct their lives; a lesson well learned. But a contracted practice such as this where a career decision is made would be the more dangerous extremes.

The proper method of obtaining what we desire is through a devout life, with communication through prayer to a True God who loves us. Disposition of self is important, has when we ask, our state is assessed for loyalty and our determination to seek absolution for our transgressions. Witchcraft demands from the prince what the conjuror desires, after all his soul comes at a price. No trust is involved. This practice comes from an attitude of despair, has he chooses to worship a created god. Praying leaves it to God for what he desires has he recognizes what he desires may not be to his benefit. How can one expect evil from a true God that created us in His image.?

My father told me that when he attended a Catholic Jesuit college, the students were warned not to play with such things. Fooling around with this is very dangerous and stupid. I think if there is any case where God would be more reluctant to lend a sympathetic ear, this insult would be it.

 

[Lokadottir]

Indeed, and we cannot condemn anyone, as this is part of a judicial process. We can condemn the practice however.

The evidence of the existence of these people by various names of their profession is common in scripture. The fact they can conjure is not disputed. The evidence of evil activity is evident in many other forms, so it is not surprising.

The belief in those who practice necromacy such has this in all it’s forms is definitely in scripture. And death is what it is, a practice of what the hereafter bodes and what is in store. There they get to practice it, only this time wishing for death itself which never comes in a place that will not allow it. These practices do not receive their powers from Divine sources, but are given to those who acknowledge the prince of this world has god, which the diversion does automatically through ignoring the commands of God and swearing allegiance to the dark powers. It is of sorts a contracted way of life, which follows from the initial ruse of general temptation. A life seems normal and it is. The prince
doesn’t disturb his plan if it goes well.

These people who attempt to come out of this mire have a great deal of difficulty in ridding the forces that held them hostage. The earlier they slough off this evil, the more facile the return journey to righteousness will be, and the forces don’t let go easily. The influence presents it’s case in the celestial court that they hold a rightful claim to this individual, and indeed they do. This is why it is common that they are plagued by these forces long after a change from a life of error.

Now we have degrees of intent and motive. A few adolescent kids playing with an oujia board may leave an aftermath of paranormal activity until they correct their lives; a lesson well learned. But a contracted practice such as this where a career decision is made would be the more dangerous extremes.

The proper method of obtaining what we desire is through a devout life, with communication through prayer to a True God who loves us. Disposition of self is important, has when we ask, our state is assessed for loyalty and our determination to seek absolution for our transgressions. Witchcraft demands from the prince what the conjuror desires, after all his soul comes at a price. No trust is involved. This practice comes from an attitude of despair, has he chooses to worship a created god. Praying leaves it to God for what he desires has he recognizes what he desires may not be to his benefit. How can one expect evil from a true God that created us in His image.?

My father told me that when he attended a Catholic Jesuit college, the students were warned not to play with such things. Fooling around with this is very dangerous and stupid. I think if there is any case where God would be more reluctant to lend a sympathetic ear, this insult would be it.

If you have no clue what you’re doing? Yes Ouija boards are very dangerous. They’re spiritual omegle.

But connecting to dead spirits is hardly the only form of magic. And when it is used people who know what they are doing take precautions to keep malevolent beings out and themselves safe.