Witchcraft

[TheAtheist]

The God and Goddess is no more “demonic” than are the Hindu Gods…

I guess my question for this thread is, “But why are they interpreted as such, when the gods of various other religions are not?”

Now mind you of course, I’m quite aware that there’s an opinion within the branch of Catholics that self-identify as “Traditionalists,” that those who are a bowing to Shiva, Guan Yu, or any of those other gods who emanate out of non-Western cultures are in fact worshipping demons (its a very traditional Augustinian viewpoint apparently)…

That opinion however finds no foothold in the mainstream segment of the Catholic Church, especially amongst its intellectual class…

…except when it comes to NeoPagans.

Why?

Does that old adage hold about familiarity breeding contempt?

 

[SteveVH]

I guess my question for this thread is, “But why are they interpreted as such, when the gods of various other religions are not?”

Now mind you of course, I’m quite aware that there’s an opinion within the branch of Catholics that self-identify as “Traditionalists,” that those who are a bowing to Shiva, Guan Yu, or any of those other gods who emanate out of non-Western cultures are in fact worshipping demons (its a very traditional Augustinian viewpoint apparently)…

That opinion however finds no foothold in the mainstream segment of the Catholic Church, especially amongst its intellectual class…

…except when it comes to NeoPagans.

Why?

Does that old adage hold about familiarity breeding contempt?

Any religion that directs its adherents away from worship of the one true God has its origin in Satan. The fact that its members may be ignorant of this makes it no less true. As to not believing in Satan, that is exactly what he desires. He is the great deceiver.

 

[Zekariya]

Any religion that directs its adherents away from worship of the one true God has its origin in Satan. The fact that its members may be ignorant of this makes it no less true. As to not believing in Satan, that is exactly what he desires. He is the great deceiver.

“The highest type of ruler is one of whose existence the people are barely aware.” - Laozi (6th century BC)

 

[TheAtheist]

Any religion that directs its adherents away from worship of the one true God has its origin in Satan. The fact that its members may be ignorant of this makes it no less true. As to not believing in Satan, that is exactly what he desires. He is the great deceiver.

Can i see the official statement from the Magisterium on that matter? As in the Papal Encyclical and/or other official document that places that as a central fact of your faith?

I tend to frequent other religious boards from various different faiths. It would be most…interesting to bring up as a point of conversation.

In my own experience dealing with some of the professionals working within the structure of your Church, I tend to find a bandwidth of opinion. For sake of convenience for the audience reading, I usually pick out two extreme examples such as Opus Dei on one end and the Jesuits on the other.

Although they share the same faith…judgments about certain issues tend to be as different as night and day.

I suppose this point where condemnations come out about one being too 'reactionary" and the other being too “liberal.” - to which i can confess I have nothing to contribute to that line of questioning given that i am not a member of your faith.

Be that as it may, let us for sake of argument accept that what you just stated is a universally valid point. Even if other religious traditions find their origin “in Satan” as you said, your Curia’s treatment and relationships with other religious institutions isn’t exactly equal on all terms.

Whereas you might say that the lone Hindu farmer when he gets down on his knees praying for the safety of his loved ones and thanking Lord Vishnu for another day of living has been duped by the devil, your not quite saying he is actively worshipping the devil.

However, that is precisely the accusation that is often hurled at the Wiccans and various NeoPagan sects that then to sprout up in Europe and America. They are actively worshipping the devil, even if they do not know it.

Which leads me back to my question again: Why the difference in treatment?

Is there some sort of criterion or rubric that’s being used that differentiates one from the other that i’m not aware of?

 

[Zekariya]

Can i see the official statement from the Magisterium on that matter? As in the Papal Encyclical and/or other official document that places that as a central fact of your faith?

I tend to frequent other religious boards from various different faiths. It would be most…interesting to bring up as a point of conversation.

In my own experience dealing with some of the professionals working within the structure of your Church, I tend to find a bandwidth of opinion. For sake of convenience for the audience reading, I usually pick out two extreme examples such as Opus Dei on one end and the Jesuits on the other.

Although they share the same faith…judgments about certain issues tend to be as different as night and day.

I suppose this point where condemnations come out about one being too 'reactionary" and the other being too “liberal.” - to which i can confess I have nothing to contribute to that line of questioning given that i am not a member of your faith.

Be that as it may, let us for sake of argument accept that what you just stated is a universally valid point. Even if other religious traditions find their origin “in Satan” as you said, your Curia’s treatment and relationships with other religious institutions isn’t exactly equal on all terms.

Whereas you might say that the lone Hindu farmer when he gets down on his knees praying for the safety of his loved ones and thanking Lord Vishnu for another day of living has been duped by the devil, your not quite saying he is actively worshipping the devil.

However, that is precisely the accusation that is often hurled at the Wiccans and various NeoPagan sects that then to sprout up in Europe and America. They are actively worshipping the devil, even if they do not know it.

Which leads me back to my question again: Why the difference in treatment?

Is there some sort of criterion or rubric that’s being used that differentiates one from the other that i’m not aware of?

1 Corinthians 10:20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.

The question is, are they heathens/pagans?

By far the occult is more dangerous, spiritually, than other religions. There is a difference between polytheists and those that deal with “magick”. The occult makes you severely vulnerable to demons (ask the Vatican’s chief exorcist).

 

[TheAtheist]

By far the occult is more dangerous, spiritually, than other religions. There is a difference between polytheists and those that deal with “magick”. The occult makes you severely vulnerable to demons (ask the Vatican’s chief exorcist).

Ahh, you see, now i feel like i’m getting somewhere.

How does a Catholic differentiate between “mere polytheism” and occultism?

As in what are the characteristics that separate one from the other?

 

[Zekariya]

Ahh, you see, now i feel like i’m getting somewhere.

How does a Catholic differentiate between “mere polytheism” and occultism?

As in what are the characteristics that separate one from the other?

Worshipping false gods versus attempting magick or communication you and the spirits to cause things to happen.

 

[TheAtheist]

Worshipping false gods versus attempting magick or communication you and the spirits to cause things to happen.

But by virtue of the religious rituals that they undertake, ie: when they are worshipping their false gods, are they not attempting to do just that?

It seems to be a universal property that one of the activities that people of all religious faith engage in while in prayer are requests - for instance for the recovery of a loved one after illness. And therefore they undergo what their religious tradition considers to be a blessing, or some sort helpful remedy for that situation.

Oh did have another question for you Zekariya, when you mentioned:

The question is, are they heathens/pagans?

Correct me if i’m wrong, but excluding those of the Jewish faith who your own religion has a rather complicated relationship with, wouldn’t that question be considered answered?

In the sense that if they aren’t a Christian but engage in some sort religious activity, they would be considered pagans in your mindset?

I of course may be wrong about this, so please correct me at your leisure.

 

[SteveVH]

Can i see the official statement from the Magisterium on that matter? As in the Papal Encyclical and/or other official document that places that as a central fact of your faith?

I should have prefaced my comments with “In my opinion”. While I don’t believe I am saying anything contrary to my faith, I know of no official statement on the matter other than “outside of the Church there is no salvation”. Now I don’t want to derail the thread on a discussion of exactly what that means, but it is certainly in line with what I am saying. If you are not part of God’s family (the Church) then you are with the enemy, knowingly or unknowingly. As to each individual’s culpability, we rely on an all-merciful God to make his judgment.
TheAtheist;10191924:

I tend to frequent other religious boards from various different faiths. It would be most…interesting to bring up as a point of conversation.
TheAtheist;10191924:

In my own experience dealing with some of the professionals working within the structure of your Church, I tend to find a bandwidth of opinion. For sake of convenience for the audience reading, I usually pick out two extreme examples such as Opus Dei on one end and the Jesuits on the other.

Although they share the same faith…judgments about certain issues tend to be as different as night and day.

Theological arguments don’t constitute a rejection of the Christian faith, which is a rejection of Christ.

I suppose this point where condemnations come out about one being too 'reactionary" and the other being too “liberal.” - to which i can confess I have nothing to contribute to that line of questioning given that i am not a member of your faith.

Be that as it may, let us for sake of argument accept that what you just stated is a universally valid point. Even if other religious traditions find their origin “in Satan” as you said, your Curia’s treatment and relationships with other religious institutions isn’t exactly equal on all terms.

Whereas you might say that the lone Hindu farmer when he gets down on his knees praying for the safety of his loved ones and thanking Lord Vishnu for another day of living has been duped by the devil, your not quite saying he is actively worshipping the devil.

However, that is precisely the accusation that is often hurled at the Wiccans and various NeoPagan sects that then to sprout up in Europe and America. They are actively worshipping the devil, even if they do not know it.

Which leads me back to my question again: Why the difference in treatment?

Is there some sort of criterion or rubric that’s being used that differentiates one from the other that i’m not aware of?

If one believes that Jesus Christ is who he claimed to be, the Son of the living God, then it follows that any system of beliefs that leads one away from him, rather than towards him, would be from the enemy, regardless of the sincerity of the believer.

Whether one actively worships the devil is beside the point. There are many very good and well meaning people who have been duped by him. Pagans, who basically worship creation, have been led away from the true worship that belongs only to the Creator, God, whom they reject.

My comments boil down to the fact that as a Catholic I believe that I am involved in a spiritual war (the Church Militant). It is between Christ and Satan and the spoils of that war are our souls. If we are not led to Christ, then we are led away from Christ, and all of this comes from the evil one.

 

[Zekariya]

But by virtue of the religious rituals that they undertake, ie: when they are worshipping their false gods, are they not attempting to do just that?

It seems to be a universal property that one of the activities that people of all religious faith engage in while in prayer are requests - for instance for the recovery of a loved one after illness. And therefore they undergo what their religious tradition considers to be a blessing, or some sort helpful remedy for that situation.

Oh did have another question for you Zekariya, when you mentioned:

Correct me if i’m wrong, but excluding those of the Jewish faith who your own religion has a rather complicated relationship with, wouldn’t that question be considered answered?

In the sense that if they aren’t a Christian but engage in some sort religious activity, they would be considered pagans in your mindset?

I of course may be wrong about this, so please correct me at your leisure.

We Christians do not manipulate the spiritual world to cause something to happen. Those that are in the occult are highly susceptible to demonic oppression or possession.

Heathens are those who worship false gods.

 

[Angels_Eyes]

The occult makes you severely vulnerable to demons (ask the Vatican’s chief exorcist).

I agree with this statement. I never had any 'bad’experiences when I practised the occult but am now what I believe ‘haunted’ with the consequences of doing such things.

 

[Zekariya]

I agree with this statement. I never had any 'bad’experiences when I practised the occult but am now what I believe ‘haunted’ with the consequences of doing such things.

I sent you a PM my father had similar experiences by playing with a Ouija board as a child.

 

[Chiltepin]

I guess my question for this thread is, “But why are they interpreted as such, when the gods of various other religions are not?”

…Does that old adage hold about familiarity breeding contempt?

That really is a good question. I’ve never given it much thought until now. Many of the older religions can be viewed as humanity’s attempt to reach out to the great beyond before Christ was revealed and as such are seen as incomplete, but not always demonized.

I think that a lot of us put a lot faith into the testimony and work of the Church’s exorcists. We hear a lot about vodoo, the occult, wicca, witchcraft, ouiji boards, tarot cards and so forth being things that get people into these messes and so we strongly oppose them. I have also heard that some of the deities being worshipped in South America may have been demonic (inspiring bloody human sacrifices.)

So the common theme is Western-ness and familiarity(as you suggest), at least in the United States. Although, I have not heard anyone connect other Native American spirituality to the occult.

So maybe we really would take the hard lined position you suggest Traditional Catholics take if we came in more contact with testimony and conversations from exorcists in other parts of the world.

Or maybe none of that is quite right and it links back to what some have said about the witches not believing in a hell or consequences or evil. Maybe that alone is enough to set it apart from other religions that have a concept of punishment or wrongness. And again as other’s have said, something that rather goes beyond praying to more of a spell, sacrifice, or manipulation, rather than pleading but ultimately submitting to the will of the deity.

 

[Holly3278]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Exorcist-Tells-His-Story/dp/0898707102 I have read the book (written by the former chief exorcist for the Vatican) in the above link. It is an excellent book and it has given me a ton of information. So I know a little on the subject! Anyway, I recently came across this:

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8602

The bit that stuck out for me was:

*"Witches do not believe in Satan.

If there is one belief common to witches everywhere, it is that they do not believe in Satan and that they do not practice Satanism. Witchcraft’s apologists are quick to point this out.

Denise Zimmermann and her co-authors of The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Wicca and Witchcraft emphasize, “Witches don’t believe in Satan! . . . The all-evil Satan is a Christian concept that plays no part in the Wiccan religion . . . Witches do not believe that negativity or evil is an organized force . . . Neither do Wiccans believe there is a place (hell) where the damned or the evil languish and suffer” (13).

Christian apologists should acknowledge that witches do not consciously worship Satan and that they do not believe he exists. But this does not mean that Satan needs to be left entirely out of the conversation. A Christian apologist should point out that belief in someone does not determine that person’s actual reality."*

I’ve never realized this before! All I’m looking for is some confirmation that this is true (or false)…

Thanks!!
ClemtheCatholic

Wiccans may not believe in Satan but that does not mean he doesn’t exist. He most certainly does exist and Wiccans worship him although they do not realize it. Wicca is an Occult religion and is one that everyone should steer clear of. Practicing Wicca or Witchcraft can bring problems with demons into one’s life including possession.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

Oh a Gnostic popped up. Neat. Reminded me of the Gnostic Black Masses.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borborites

The section on Sexual Sacramentalism makes my point. Not safe for work, btw

Seriously? Well, I’m not a Borborite, but I’d take what heresiologists say about them with a grain of salt. Also, we don’t celebrate a black Mass.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

Witches and Satanists are two different things.

Witchcraft is a subset of paganism. All pagans are not witches, but all witches are pagans. Wicca is a recent term for witchcraft.

There are white and black spells, but no worship of Satan in witchcraft.

Not all witches identify as pagan… Witches can be of any number of religions, and still practice witchcraft. But in a Wiccan context, it’s a very specific type of witchcraft.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Not all witches identify as pagan… Witches can be of any number of religions, and still practice witchcraft. But in a Wiccan context, it’s a very specific type of witchcraft.

What the heck?? What do you mean “witches can be of any number of religions?”

A Jewish witch?
A Muslim witch?
A Christian witch?
A Buddhist witch?

Are you crazy? Witchcraft is witchcraft, and it’s a pagan pseudo-religion. Nature-worship. Spell-casting. There is no such thing as “Wicca,” it is only witchcraft termed so as to make it into a religion, for government protection.

 

[Zekariya]

What the heck?? What do you mean “witches can be of any number of religions?”

A Jewish witch?
A Muslim witch?
A Christian witch?
A Buddhist witch?

Are you crazy? Witchcraft is witchcraft, and it’s a pagan pseudo-religion. Nature-worship. Spell-casting. There is no such thing as “Wicca,” it is only witchcraft termed so as to make it into a religion, for government protection.

I agree! Traditional Judaism, traditional Christianity, and traditional Islam condemns the practice of witchcraft (I can’t speak on Buddhism).

 

[gnosisofthomas]

What the heck?? What do you mean “witches can be of any number of religions?”

A Jewish witch?
A Muslim witch?
A Christian witch?
A Buddhist witch?

Well, yes. I personally know a Jewish witch and a Christian witch. Now whether you think Christianity and witchcraft are compatable with each other is a totally different issue, but the fact is that both of these people practice their religions right along with witchcraft.

Are you crazy? Witchcraft is witchcraft, and it’s a pagan pseudo-religion. Nature-worship. Spell-casting. There is no such thing as “Wicca,” it is only witchcraft termed so as to make it into a religion, for government protection.

Witchcraft is much older than Wicca. While I don’t particularly care for Wicca, it is a real religion. Say there’s no such thing as Wicca is like saying there’s no such thing as Catholicism… You don’t have to recognize it if you don’t want to, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It’s not only called “Wicca” for government protection… Wicca arose in England immediately after the witchcraft laws were repealed, and the only protection witches had at the time was that they couldn’t be arrested for practicing witchcraft.

There are many forms of witchcraft that have nothing to do with Wicca… In the US, for example, there’s the African American practice of Hoodoo, which is simply a magical practice. Most Hoodoo practitioners are Catholic or Protestant, but some are Jewish, or even atheist (I don’t understand how atheist Hoodoo works, but they exist, haha!).

There’s also Pennsylvania Dutch magic (Pow-Wow), which is largely based on Catholicism and work with the Psalms. In England, there’s Traditional Witchcraft, which is completely different from the religion of Wicca. Traditional Witchcraft doesn’t necessarily worship nature (depending on the practitioner), and Hoodoo and Pow-Wow don’t worship nature at all. Witchcraft is a practice – a craft. Certain religions (or people of certain religions) may practice it or not, but to say “witchcraft is witchcraft” is not only over-simplifying it, it’s just outright inaccurate.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Well, yes. I personally know a Jewish witch and a Christian witch. Now whether you think Christianity and witchcraft are compatable with each other is a totally different issue, but the fact is that both of these people practice their religions right along with witchcraft.

Witchcraft is much older than Wicca. While I don’t particularly care for Wicca, it is a real religion. Say there’s no such thing as Wicca is like saying there’s no such thing as Catholicism… You don’t have to recognize it if you don’t want to, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It’s not only called “Wicca” for government protection… Wicca arose in England immediately after the witchcraft laws were repealed, and the only protection witches had at the time was that they couldn’t be arrested for practicing witchcraft.

There are many forms of witchcraft that have nothing to do with Wicca… In the US, for example, there’s the African American practice of Hoodoo, which is simply a magical practice. Most Hoodoo practitioners are Catholic or Protestant, but some are Jewish, or even atheist (I don’t understand how atheist Hoodoo works, but they exist, haha!).

There’s also Pennsylvania Dutch magic (Pow-Wow), which is largely based on Catholicism and work with the Psalms. In England, there’s Traditional Witchcraft, which is completely different from the religion of Wicca. Traditional Witchcraft doesn’t necessarily worship nature (depending on the practitioner), and Hoodoo and Pow-Wow don’t worship nature at all. Witchcraft is a practice – a craft. Certain religions (or people of certain religions) may practice it or not, but to say “witchcraft is witchcraft” is not only over-simplifying it, it’s just outright inaccurate.

The people you know are not witches. Whatever they are, they are not practicing the craft. There is no compatibility with other religious beliefs. Now, I have to say, a lot of Jews seem to be almost completely secular - it’s more of a cultural factor than a religion, so perhaps a Jewish witch is not a contradiction in terms. I think your examples are of people who are confused, that’s all. There is no such thing as a Christian witch. You either believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, or you don’t - you can’t carry on practicing witchcraft whilst going to church. Well, you CAN, but you aren’t being honest in either world.

We are not going to agree on “Wicca.” That term was adopted/made up by witches in order to soften and disguise the previous terms. “Witch” and “Warlock” just didn’t have the right tolerance in the general public, where “wicca” and “wiccans” somehow did. “Witchcraft” could not be deemed a religion but “Wicca” could be, and was. It’s all semantics.