Witchraft vs. Pagan religions

[rayne100]

I thought after reading several posts on here, that I should mention that just because one practices a Pagan religion, does not automatically make them a witch or a practicer of witchraft.

Witchraft is a skillset. Paganism (in all it’s many forms) are religions. One does not necessarily have to practice witchraft to be a believer in their faith.
Often times people get the idea that because on practices wicca (for example) that they do magic or majick (however you care to spell it). This is not the case always.

One can be a witch without being religious, one can be a witch while being religious and one can be religious without being a witch.

 

[martinporres]

Hi rayne100,

I’m taking your post at face-value. I’m interested though: do you have an opinion on whether or not one can “use the skillset” of witchcraft and be a faithful Catholic?

mp

 

[rayne100]

Hi rayne100,

I’m taking your post at face-value.

Hi
Meaning? how else could you take it? Did you think I was implying something?

I’m interested though: do you have an opinion on whether or not one can “use the skillset” of witchcraft and be a faithful Catholic?
mp

MP- well that’s another topic altogether…at the risk of getting crucified myself…I have to say it depends on what practices, for example… Herbalism, yes…love spells and curses…um prolly not. Witchraft is not like paganism, there are no rules at all not even if “it harm none, do as you will”.
hope I answered your question.
BTW- what led you to this question since the post was about paganism?

 

[KarenNC]

I thought after reading several posts on here, that I should mention that just because one practices a Pagan religion, does not automatically make them a witch or a practicer of witchraft.

Thanks for posting this, rayne. I am one of the ones who identify as Neopagan, but who do not practice any form of magic(k). It is simply not something that was ever highly regarded by my spiritual forebears (Hellenic). It has always smacked too much of a desire for manipulation to me rather than for worship. I am about the latter in my relationship with my Deities.

 

[martinporres]

BTW- what led you to this question since the post was about paganism?

Just that you posted it on the Catholic Answers forum. I figure people who post here are at least interested in the topic of Catholicism, even if the particular subforum or post isn’t about it.

Or: to start a discussion? I figured you just weren’t posting to “see” yourself talk.

Speaking of herbalism – my wife’s recently been going to acupuncture, and they’ve been prescribing herbs to remedy a few of her problems. I guess in a certain time even acupuncture and herbal remedies would have been considered witchcraft to some (maybe even still to this day).

 

[rayne100]

Just that you posted it on the Catholic Answers forum. I figure people who post here are at least interested in the topic of Catholicism, even if the particular subforum or post isn’t about it.

Or: to start a discussion? I figured you just weren’t posting to “see” yourself talk.

Speaking of herbalism – my wife’s recently been going to acupuncture, and they’ve been prescribing herbs to remedy a few of her problems. I guess in a certain time even acupuncture and herbal remedies would have been considered witchcraft to some (maybe even still to this day).

Hey thanks for your response! You are correct. I am a catholic, however I do have several friends who are pagan as well as my fiance. I was posting to start a discussion and also to make that distinction. Often times people assume that because one is Pagan or Neopagan, that they all practice witchcraft and that is not the case.

In regards to your wife. She needs to be careful, for medical reasons, not religious ones. Please, if you haven’t done so already, make sure that the people telling her to take these herbs are professionals and as always check with your doctor to see if there would be any interactions with other medications she may be on.

Yes, even today some people believe that acupuncture is intrisincally evil, however I cannot see the connection, nor can I see lighting a candle that serves as a symbol and praying for what you want. That too is a part of witchcraft that I don’t think would go against catholicism as long as you are praying and not demanding.

 

[rayne100]

Thanks for posting this, rayne. I am one of the ones who identify as Neopagan, but who do not practice any form of magic(k). It is simply not something that was ever highly regarded by my spiritual forebears (Hellenic). It has always smacked too much of a desire for manipulation to me rather than for worship. I am about the latter in my relationship with my Deities.

Your welcome!
It has always bothered me that people automatically jump to that conclusion.
Although for some of the die hards, I suppose it wouldn’t make a difference either way since according to them, all pagans worship satanic demons whether they know it or not.

As I am sure you can tell from my posts, I am not one of them

 

[CuriousM]

:clapping:
Excellent thread that I am soooo happy to see was posted.

There are Many people who identify themselves as pagan or Wiccan who do not practice magic(k). There are many who do not use divination or anything of the sort.
They identify themselves as pagan or Wiccan because that is how they see and choose to worship deity.

It is a very personal thing.

Further, defining witch and wiccan and pagan alone are personal and at times relative to the individual.
So while the question was posed to Rayne:
In terms of can a Catholic be a witch, sure why not?
A person can be whatever they want to be. And it’s between them and God.
In terms of how the Church feels regarding witchcraft, well, again, it depends on how the Church defines it and how the practitoner defines it.
As has been mentioned a person who practices witchcraft, So to Speak, might really just be more of a panentheist who does not do divination or otherwise does not have anything to do with the spirit world. And to go from there, uses healing herbs to heal the sick, and in so doing seeks to heal the spirit of a person, all the while always relying on his or her faith in Jesus to help her do so.
Hope that makes sense.
Excellent thread

 

[rayne100]

:clapping:
Excellent thread that I am soooo happy to see was posted.

There are Many people who identify themselves as pagan or Wiccan who do not practice magic(k). There are many who do not use divination or anything of the sort.
They identify themselves as pagan or Wiccan because that is how they see and choose to worship deity.

It is a very personal thing.

Further, defining witch and wiccan and pagan alone are personal and at times relative to the individual.
So while the question was posed to Rayne:
In terms of can a Catholic be a witch, sure why not?
A person can be whatever they want to be. And it’s between them and God.
In terms of how the Church feels regarding witchcraft, well, again, it depends on how the Church defines it and how the practitoner defines it.
As has been mentioned a person who practices witchcraft, So to Speak, might really just be more of a panentheist who does not do divination or otherwise does not have anything to do with the spirit world. And to go from there, uses healing herbs to heal the sick, and in so doing seeks to heal the spirit of a person, all the while always relying on his or her faith in Jesus to help her do so.
Hope that makes sense.
Excellent thread

Thanks, I try

 

[Auriel]

I was going to say as well, a good friend of mine is also a pagan. She practices zero magick. As another poster stated, from her point of view any magick would be a a type of manipulation, a superimposing of ones will. I wanted to add her parents are strict Catholics.

 

[CuriousM]

Here are a couple of wiki links that help explain how a Christian or a Catholic might also view “magick”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stregheria
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Wicca

The only purpose for this is educational and I’m not by any means trying to change another’s opinion of witchcraft, wicca or paganism in general.

 

[rayne100]

Here are a couple of wiki links that help explain how a Christian or a Catholic might also view “magick”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stregheria
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Wicca

The only purpose for this is educational and I’m not by any means trying to change another’s opinion of witchcraft, wicca or paganism in general.

I have studied both of these in detail in the past and have found them to be quite interesting. But again keepin mind the last link you posted was called Christian Wicca not christian witchcraft. That is altogether different. see below…
members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/

 

[CuriousM]

Ahh that is true Rayne. I suppose I felt a little leary about posting too many links. But you, again, make a very good point!!

BB

 

[IanCorrigan]

I thought after reading several posts on here, that I should mention that just because one practices a Pagan religion, does not automatically make them a witch or a practicer of witchraft.

That statement is surely true. However, the idea that witchcraft is a synonym for magical skills, and not the name of a religion, is something that only entered the Pagan scene sometimes in the 1990s.

**Witchraft is a skillset. Paganism (in all it’s many forms) are religions. **

In the 1970s, when witchcraft (or wicca, its alternate name) was growing and maturing in the US, the basic message for everyone was ‘witchcraft is a religion’. Specifically, it is/was the religion of the Old Gods, often described as the Lord and The Lady. It was the religion of the four-quartered circle, of drawing down the moon and of the great rite. The early movement had one clear message for the public - “witchcraft (which we sometimes call wicca) is a religion”

Now, we used to make a distinction, sometimes, between ‘ceremonial witchcraft’ and ‘operative witchcraft’, the latter being spellbinding and magical arts. Nevertheless, even the practices of spellbidning were understood as essentially religious, just as the practices of worship were understood as basically magical.

One does not necessarily have to practice witchraft to be a believer in their faith.

Since the late 70s, many kinds of non-Wiccan Paganism have arisen, and among them there is a much wider distinction made between religious activity and magical arts. Some Asatruar or Roman religionists don’t really like magic at all.

Often times people get the idea that because on practices wicca (for example) that they do magic or majick (however you care to spell it). This is not the case always.

Out of all the Pagan religions, Wicca (the other name for witchcraft) has the most integrated magical practice. Even their core ritual, the ‘circle casting’ is essentially a spell. Other eclectic Pagans may or may not practice magic

I have been wondering where this idea of the non-religious witch came from. First, I think the culture of the late 20th century led folks to want to reject anything called religion. The word itself has a bad taste for a lot of people, and I think they are willing to rationalise their way into calling religion and spirituality radically separate - a position I find nonsensical. Second, there is the anthropological use of ‘witchcraft’, where it is often used as a synonym for ‘magic’ or ‘occult power’. Personally, i think this is a bastardization of the old english word that became ‘witch’, but it’s kind of inescapable these days.

One can be a witch without being religious,

Only in anthropology books, or a few late 20th century ‘chaos magic’ type systems. In traditional magic there is no magic without religion.

** one can be a witch while being religious and one can be religious without being a witch.**

One can certainly keep Pagan religion without practicing magic (if that’s what you mean by ‘being a witch’, as opposed to being an initiated member of a witchcraft religion). And I’d say that all magical practice (beyond the most juvenile spellcasting) requires a detailed relationship with the divine, and that relationship arises from religion.

My Catholic friends, I know this is an in-house discussion for Pagans - it’s a topic that gets my goat…
Ian

 

[Mr.Bee]

I’ve always been a little bothered by Pagan as a religion, although I admit that it appears harmless and peaceful with good intentions, it just seems to me that those practicing a pagan religion do it as a reaction to mainstream religions. For example, my good friend from college admittidly worships “The goddess”, is militantly pro-abortion and belly dances as a main part of the worship… She’s angry, doesnt like to be told what to do, and that seems to be one common trait I’ve encountered with practicing pagans. Maybe I’m hanging out with the wrong pagans?

Witchcraft is a different story, the relationship with pagan religion may be unfortunate but it is unshakable. All I can say is that practicing witchcraft is inviting a power and knowledge that we have no business knowing or fooling around with. Whether you believe in the supernatural or not, witchcraft involves superstition, which itself is dangerous. Some Caribbean cultures are Christian and practice voodoo, and people die because of it. Something like Tarot cards might seem like a game, but it involves an influence that contradicts reality. Just my opinion.

 

[KarenNC]

I’ve always been a little bothered by Pagan as a religion, although I admit that it appears harmless and peaceful with good intentions, it just seems to me that those practicing a pagan religion do it as a reaction to mainstream religions. …She’s angry, doesnt like to be told what to do, and that seems to be one common trait I’ve encountered with practicing pagans. Maybe I’m hanging out with the wrong pagans?

Well, can’t speak for your friend, but I am practicing a Neopagan religion because it provides the best model I have found that matches my experience of spiritual reality. I’m not angry at other religions either.

You are right that a lot of folks get caught up in identifying themselves primarily as “not-Christian” rather than as what they do believe and don’t realize that, rather than distance themselves from Christianity, such an attitude actually ties them just as closely to it. Many of these folks have had extremely negative experiences with other religions and sometimes it takes a long time to “detox” from those experiences.

It’s also not uncommon for someone who is a convert to be very vehement in the rejection of their former affiliation initially as a way of separating and establishing a new identity, somewhat like a teenager separating from his or her parents. One hopes that they will heal and grow spiritually in time.

 

[Mr.Bee]

Well, can’t speak for your friend, but I am practicing a Neopagan religion because it provides the best model I have found that matches my experience of spiritual reality. I’m not angry at other religions either.

Thanks Karen,

I guess I’m a tad old-fashioned, but the way you describe your belief above sounds so… corporate, like a job description or mission statement.

Please don’t be offended by my comment, just an observation about the way things have changed.

I’m glad you’re not angry.

Mr.B

 

[KarenNC]

I guess I’m a tad old-fashioned, but the way you describe your belief above sounds so… corporate, like a job description or mission statement.

Please don’t be offended by my comment, just an observation about the way things have changed.

Yeah, guess it does . I’m afraid that that’s more of a function of the way I tend to write than anything else. I promise, my faith is a living, vital thing that brings me great comfort, peace and spiritual fulfillment in a way I never found within Christianity.

It’s interesting, in some strands of Judaism there is the idea of someone having a Jewish soul that was born in a Gentile body, and that conversion is simply that soul “coming home.” I know that I felt that in my religion and it is a common way one hears converts describe the experience of finding their spiritual home. I know that even as a 10 year old child, totally immersed in a very Christian family and culture and never having heard of the Greek Gods as anything outside of a mythology book treated as a fairy tale by everyone I knew, I found myself drawn to things that I now see as part of my Neopagan religion. Things like making offerings of flowers to the land spirits when our basement was being dug out and finished, placing them within the incomplete walls with prayers asking for protection for the family. Things that I instinctively knew my family would not understand in the context of our religion. In retrospect, I can see many things along those lines. Perhaps I have a Pagan soul that simply had to wait to find its home.

As for the anger, it helps that I made a break with the Christianity of my childhood long ago and actually experienced that there was a range of worship styles and dogma within the Christian Church as an adult. Everything was not colored by some of the negative experiences of my childhood. It was more of a gradual realization that I could no longer perform the mental gymnastics to try to convince myself that I could honestly stand in church each week and claim to believe something that I patently did not— in a monotheistic God, much less a Trinitarian one. At that point, it was simply hypocritical of me to try to stay any longer.

 

[cheddarsox]

I practice a faith that is considered by many to be pagan, pantheism. I do not practice witchcraft, magik, magic, spellcraft etc.

Also, in response to a latter poster, I practice my faith because it is true, not as a reaction to any other religion. I did not shop for a religion or a rebellion, but was called to faith by a conviction of the heart.

 

[Mr.Bee]

As for the anger, it helps that I made a break with the Christianity of my childhood long ago and actually experienced that there was a range of worship styles and dogma within the Christian Church as an adult. Everything was not colored by some of the negative experiences of my childhood. It was more of a gradual realization that I could no longer perform the mental gymnastics to try to convince myself that I could honestly stand in church each week and claim to believe something that I patently did not— in a monotheistic God, much less a Trinitarian one. At that point, it was simply hypocritical of me to try to stay any longer.

Thanks Karen for all the , It helps keeping an open mind when responding.

I understand and respect your position, I say this in reaction to my own doubts about Christianity, attitude of religious convictions from certain folks, and mainly why is all this dogma and claims so darn complicated when it really shouldn’t be? I don’t really have an answer. But, I will maintain I believe in a monotheistic God, there is only one. I say this because I believe all others are an invention out of our feeble understanding of things, and our reluctance to accept the unpleasant things about reality, those being: we are not in control of our lives, evil exists, we all are going to die. You can worship and celebrate life, which is good, I’m all for that! But we can’t ignore our mortality. Religion attempts to answer these questions. Jesus, and I guess Christianity tells us things we don’t like to hear. or we don’t understand. Too bad.

So in the mean time, lets all live in peace.

.
Also, in response to a latter poster, I practice my faith because it is true, not as a reaction to any other religion. I did not shop for a religion or a rebellion, but was called to faith by a conviction of the heart.

I find it difficult these days to seperate the statement from the religion, I believe you are sincere in your faith and conviction, but so is everybody else apparently. All religion these days seems to be annoingly vain, especially Christianity, which misses the point of the religion in the first place.

Maybe I’ve painted myself in a corner again