With no consummation requirement, wouldn't SS"M" potentially include friends who have a non-sexual relationship?

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I don’t know that many “traditional” marriage folks would actually be willing to return to a system of arranged marriages, dowries, and all of the socio-cultural changes and challenges (particularly with regard to a woman’s role/place in society) that a true return to tradition would necessarily entail.
I do not think defense of traditional marriage would be mandated to roll back to the period you mention of arranged marriage, any more that it mandates going back even further to marriage by kidnapping or clubbing over the head, to use the caveman imagery. Marriage can come to exist by a variety of methods and still remain true traditional marriage.
 
Grace & Peace!
I do not think defense of traditional marriage would be mandated to roll back to the period you mention of arranged marriage, any more that it mandates going back even further to marriage by kidnapping or clubbing over the head, to use the caveman imagery. Marriage can come to exist by a variety of methods and still remain true traditional marriage.
But that’s precisely the problem, pnewton: the definition of marriage that “traditional” marriage defenders have and the one which same-sex marriage advocates have is essentially the same–marriage is making a life-long commitment and building a household with someone you romantically love. It’s a definition that is ordered to the good of the couple, not to the good of the society in which the couple is embedded.

Because this is the point that livingwordunity is also missing: saying that marriage means a man and a woman refers not to marriage’s function, but to its form. And yes, the form of marriage for a very long time in the West has been a man and a woman. Generally, though not always, an institution’s form will follow its function, not the other way around–and indeed, the form of marriage was well-suited to it’s function, which had to do with uniting families for favorable political/economic reasons, establishing legacies and inheritance rights, etc. Children were never the actual point of marriage–they were a means by which the social purposes of marriage (family alliance, legacy, inheritance, etc.) could be realized. It’s only since the Victorian sentimentalization of childhood that we’ve begun to think differently–until then, children were always near the bottom of the ladder in terms of social value. Parenting in mommy-daddy units was also never actually the point of marriage–childcare was generally the social task of mothers and other women, not of fathers; and in households that could afford it, childcare was often farmed out to nannies, tutors and other caregivers (in other Western cultures, fosterage was an important system of child-rearing, while in other cultures entirely, childcare tends to be more communal). Parents were important in terms of name and honor, but not necessarily important in terms of care. Until recently, that is.

So the traditional function of marriage is entirely socially ordered–families come together, children are produced in order to cement familial ties and establish legacies, etc. And the man-woman form of marriage is well-suited to such an idea of marriage.

In our day, though (and for the last couple centuries in which the enlightenment value of individual self-determination has been increasingly on the rise) marriage is entirely couple-oriented–two people who romantically love each other come together to make a home, children may or may not be produced, the state doesn’t care what they get up to as long as it’s legal. In this understanding of marriage, a specifically man-woman form is immaterial to accomplishing the purposes of marriage…which are entirely couple-dependent.

If you want the man-woman form of marriage to be essential again, you need to change marriage’s function back to something more socially oriented. And that means making a number of changes to the society and the culture which, unfortunately at this point, are unworkable. Because marriage, whether it is socially oriented or couple oriented receives its function/orientation from the culture/society in which it plays a part. If society/culture changes then marriage changes.

To argue for “traditional” marriage without taking all of this into consideration is to basically admit to being a fantasist–which is to say, in the end, that “tradition” becomes divorced from the traditional and is reduced to being just another identity-marker in a cultural sea of ego-centrism. It is, in short, to unconsciously betray tradition to the zeitgeist–you get the trappings of tradition, but not the essence; you find yourself advocating for the form of a thing, but ignore its actual function or substance.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
To argue for “traditional” marriage without taking all of this into consideration is to basically admit to being a fantasist–which is to say, in the end, that “tradition” becomes divorced from the traditional and is reduced to being just another identity-marker in a cultural sea of ego-centrism.
I understand what you are saying, but do not agree. I do not hold to the same distinction between tradition and traditional (something that makes Catholicism confusing as well). In fact, I think the Mass might be a good analogy. They are both Sacraments after all. The world attempts to make marriage non-sacramental. When I argue for traditional, it is precisely the substance of the Sacramental that I want to see. I consider trappings those things others consider traditional. Latin, chant, form are not what makes a Mass Sacramental. Likewise, in marriage, the way the two come to the point of marriage is not what makes marriage a Sacrament. I need only to point to the Catholic Church which bestow Holy Matrimony on those couples who have met, fallen in love and choose marriage. Thus, the substance of traditional marriage remains in a romantic marriage. The grace of the Sacrament remains, along with the real markers that are needed, desire for fidelity, permanence and fecundity.

We do not have to agree, but please to not imply that any disagreement is the result of any sort of ignorance or ego-centrist cultural influence. That says nothing about anyone but the one who states it.
 
I found some quotes in the Catechism that express this:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family. (2363)

The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring (1601)

The consent must be an act of the will of each of the contracting parties, free of coercion or grave external fear. No human power can substitute for this consent. If this freedom is lacking the marriage is invalid. (1628)
 
Grace & Peace!
We do not have to agree, but please to not imply that any disagreement is the result of any sort of ignorance or ego-centrist cultural influence. That says nothing about anyone but the one who states it.
I wasn’t implying that reasoned disagreement with what I (or anyone) might have to say implies ignorance, but there are a lot of moving parts to the marriage debate–issues of history, of tradition, of socio-cultural change, of politics. We’re all bound to be ignorant of some very important pieces to the puzzle. So the challenge is not to get too comfortable either in our assumptions or in our sense of certainty. Regarding ego-centrist cultural influence, I don’t think any of us is immune to that influence–in the U.S. at least, we live in a culture/state that is predicated on individual self-actualization, the “virtue” of enlightened self-interest, and the laws of the market in which anything (including ideas) can be bought and sold for personal gain of some sort. It is inevitable that ego-centrism will creep into our discourse. We therefore need to be that much more vigilant regarding its influence.
I understand what you are saying, but do not agree. I do not hold to the same distinction between tradition and traditional (something that makes Catholicism confusing as well). In fact, I think the Mass might be a good analogy. They are both Sacraments after all. The world attempts to make marriage non-sacramental. When I argue for traditional, it is precisely the substance of the Sacramental that I want to see. I consider trappings those things others consider traditional. Latin, chant, form are not what makes a Mass Sacramental. Likewise, in marriage, the way the two come to the point of marriage is not what makes marriage a Sacrament. I need only to point to the Catholic Church which bestow Holy Matrimony on those couples who have met, fallen in love and choose marriage. Thus, the substance of traditional marriage remains in a romantic marriage. The grace of the Sacrament remains, along with the real markers that are needed, desire for fidelity, permanence and fecundity.
I hope you’re not assuming that a Roman Catholic sacramental understanding of marriage has ever been a (barely) Protestant state’s understanding of marriage. Because at least in the U.S., civil marriage has never been understood by the state to be a sacrament.

Re: the substance of traditional marriage remaining in romantic marriage, I’m not quite sure what you mean. Romantic feelings are immaterial to a traditional understanding of marriage. They can be there or not, it doesn’t really matter. What matters is consent. The point, though, is that the contemporary notion of marriage makes romance completely necessary, because regardless of what rite is performed or what sacramental understanding one might have, marriage today is about the couple, not about the society in which the couple is embedded. That’s a huge change. That the traditional forms of the rite and a sacramental understanding of marriage can appear to accommodate this change does not mean that the change is traditional, that the accommodation is natural or comfortable, or that this change does not have wide-reaching cultural effects that–outside the church–effectively render a sacramental understanding of marriage irrelevant, obsolete or simply optional to marriage’s purposes (since, after all, it’s all about the couple and whatever they may want or think). Indeed, one of these wide-reaching cultural effects is same-sex marriage. Another is high divorce rates: no romance=no marriage in the contemporary understanding of what marriage means. Which is to say: given the contemporary understanding of marriage, the substance of traditional marriage subsists in romantic marriage only if the couple wants it to.

But if the tradition is only traditioned on a whim or only relative to any particular couple’s desires…and if that’s the situation that everyone seems to take for granted, since the fundamental understanding of contemporary marriage (that it is romantically oriented and couple-centric) remains unchallenged even by the “traditional” marriage advocates, how is it possible to speak of tradition anymore without irony? Is it possible to speak of traditions that are no longer observed (or that have become optional) as actual traditions that are binding on anyone apart from those who now choose to observe them?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
The designation “traditional” marriage is just as useless a designation as “SSM”.
It’s a shame that supporters of marriage have been pigeonholed into it, as if they are defending one type of marriage among many.

Marriage simply is. It is an objective reality that cannot be anything else, regardless of how cultures have expressed it over the centuries. There are not different types of it.

To protect marriage is not to protect a tradition, it is to recognize an objective reality that is fundamental to human existence: human existence and flourishing require a man and woman living in a relationship of sacrificial love, just as Christ loves the Church. Nothing else cooperates in the creation of human life, nothing else nurtures it in the same way. Can anyone argue these realities?

Regardless of dowrys and men working outside the home etc…all cultural things that have changed over the centuries, marriage is rooted in all those fundamental things that St Paul lays out for us. Marriage is something that has existed, from God, from the very beginning, unchanged (romantic period aside).

Why this is not obvious to humanity is a symptom of an underlying sickness.
 
The designation “traditional” marriage is just as useless a designation as “SSM”.
It’s a shame that supporters of marriage have been pigeonholed into it, as if they are defending one type of marriage among many.

Marriage simply is. It is an objective reality that cannot be anything else, regardless of how cultures have expressed it over the centuries. There are not different types of it.

To protect marriage is not to protect a tradition, it is to recognize an objective reality that is fundamental to human existence: human existence and flourishing require a man and woman living in a relationship of sacrificial love, just as Christ loves the Church. Nothing else cooperates in the creation of human life, nothing else nurtures it in the same way. Can anyone argue these realities?

Regardless of dowrys and men working outside the home etc…all cultural things that have changed over the centuries, marriage is rooted in all those fundamental things that St Paul lays out for us. Marriage is something that has existed, from God, from the very beginning, unchanged (romantic period aside).

Why this is not obvious to humanity is a symptom of an underlying sickness.
By that rule the VAST majority of marriages have been invalid. Marriages being about love at all is a fairly newish thing and came long after Catholic marriages.
 
By that rule the VAST majority of marriages have been invalid. Marriages being about love at all is a fairly newish thing and came long after Catholic marriages.
🤷

How do you come to the conclusion that love as the basis for marriage is a modern invention? Or do you mean to say “romance” instead of love?
 
🤷

How do you come to the conclusion that love as the basis for marriage is a modern invention? Or do you mean to say “romance” instead of love?
I think love like - falling in love - love is relatively new to marriage. In some places running water is relatively new, but that doesn’t make it out of place.
 
Indeed, one of these wide-reaching cultural effects is same-sex marriage. Another is high divorce rates: no romance=no marriage in the contemporary understanding of what marriage means. Which is to say: given the contemporary understanding of marriage, the substance of traditional marriage subsists in romantic marriage only if the couple wants it to.

But if the tradition is only traditioned on a whim or only relative to any particular couple’s desires…and if that’s the situation that everyone seems to take for granted, since the fundamental understanding of contemporary marriage (that it is romantically oriented and couple-centric) remains unchallenged even by the “traditional” marriage advocates, how is it possible to speak of tradition anymore without irony? Is it possible to speak of traditions that are no longer observed (or that have become optional) as actual traditions that are binding on anyone apart from those who now choose to observe them?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
I just want to make sure I’m following what you are saying.

The bulk of current traditional marriage advocates take for granted, along with SSM advocates, that romantic feelings are necessary to the meaning of marriage? And that this is ironic because the traditional understanding of marriage is based on consent between parties?

Is this another way of saying that since marriage hasn’t been lived according to the “natural law” way for some time, SSM is just the natural outcome?

Thanks!
 
LivingWord, it’s a ridiculous question because the question itself cheapens and denigrates marriage. Friends do not just marry each other without love or for tax benefits. That is the most narcissistic thing I’ve heard in a long time.
People have been using marriage to cross borders for centuries. Why do people act as though we have no worries about relying in man’s fallen nature to avoid escaping the tenets of a law? Especially in the economic quagmire we’ve found ourselves mired in? People use the tax code for loopholes ever since the laws were codified. Do we think that having rendered marriage nothing more than a secular contract it will not be the same?

Heck, it was that long ago that a wealthy millionaire attempted to adopt his girlfriend to ensure his estate was protected from his biological children.

Nature’s natural state is one of entropy, tending towards chaos, not order. Laws allow us the framework to preserve order against the tendency towards chaos. A common example is our daily lives. It take order and structure to keep a house clean. It takes nothing to allow it to clutter and become messy.
 
There is a saying “the sacraments effect what they signify” or something like that.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb22.htm

2. …
We know what questions concerning marriage and the family were addressed to the last Council, to Pope Paul VI, and are continually formulated in the post-conciliar period, day after day, in the most varied circumstances. They are addressed by single persons, married couples, fiancés and young people. But they are also addressed by writers, journalists, politicians, economists and demographers, in a word, by contemporary culture and civilization.
I think that among the answers that Christ would give to the people of our time and to their questions, often so impatient, the one he gave to the Pharisees would still be fundamental. Answering those questions, Christ would refer above all to the “beginning”. Perhaps he would do so all the more resolutely and essentially in that the interior and at the same time the cultural situation of modern man seems to be moving away from that beginning. It is assuming forms and dimensions which diverge from the biblical image of the beginning into points that are clearly more and more distant.

5. The questions raised by modern man are also those of Christians—those who are preparing for the sacrament of marriage or those who are already living in marriage, which is the sacrament of the Church. These are not only the questions of science, but even more, the questions of human life. So many men and so many Christians seek the accomplishment of their vocation in marriage. So many people wish to find in it the way to salvation and holiness.
The answer Christ gave to the Pharisees, zealots of the Old Testament, is especially important for them. Those who seek the accomplishment of their own human and Christian vocation in marriage are called, first of all, to make this theology of the body, whose beginning we find in the first chapters of Genesis, the content of their life and behavior. How indispensable is a thorough knowledge of the meaning of the body, in its masculinity and femininity, along the way of this vocation! A precise awareness of the nuptial meaning of the body, of its generating meaning, is necessary. This is so since all that forms the content of the life of married couples must constantly find its full and personal dimension in life together, in behavior, in feelings! This is all the more so against the background of a civilization which remains under the pressure of a materialistic and utilitarian way of thinking and evaluating. Modern bio-physiology can supply a great deal of precise information about human sexuality. However, knowledge of the personal dignity of the human body and of sex must still be drawn from other sources. A special source is the Word of God himself, which contains the revelation of the body, going back to the beginning.
How significant it is that Christ, in the answer to all these questions, orders man to return, in a way, to the threshold of his theological history! He orders him to put himself at the border between original innocence, happiness and the inheritance of the first fall. Does he not perhaps mean to tell him that the path along which he leads man, male and female, in the sacrament of marriage, the path of the “redemption of the body”, must consist in regaining this dignity, in which there is accomplished, simultaneously, the real meaning of the human body, its personal meaning and its meaning "of communion".
 
🤷

How do you come to the conclusion that love as the basis for marriage is a modern invention? Or do you mean to say “romance” instead of love?
Because history

I mean at the start of the marriage, it used to mostly be just duty.
I just want to make sure I’m following what you are saying.

The bulk of current traditional marriage advocates take for granted, along with SSM advocates, that romantic feelings are necessary to the meaning of marriage? And that this is ironic because the traditional understanding of marriage is based on consent between parties?

Is this another way of saying that since marriage hasn’t been lived according to the “natural law” way for some time, SSM is just the natural outcome?

Thanks!
Consent doesn’t require love at all.

I think the irony is people are claiming that marriage requiring love is natural law despite it being modern relativism.
 
I think the irony is people are claiming that marriage requiring love is natural law despite it being modern relativism.
The elevation of feelings of love as a prerequisite to marriage may be a modern development. But those marriages that most people, even people of ancient times, would have declared to be “good” marriages are those where love did develop through the course of the marriage. Even ancient people would have thought it very anomalous for two people to be married and yet only tolerating each other because of a binding commitment they had made.
 
Consent doesn’t require love at all.

I think the irony is people are claiming that marriage requiring love is natural law despite it being modern relativism.
If this is strictly what Deo Volente is saying, I’m totally missing the point. I understood the point more as calling out what is perceived as a hypocrisy on the part of marriage defenders between one man and one woman. I need clarification.
 
The elevation of feelings of love as a prerequisite to marriage may be a modern development. But those marriages that most people, even people of ancient times, would have declared to be “good” marriages are those where love did develop through the course of the marriage. Even ancient people would have thought it very anomalous for two people to be married and yet only tolerating each other because of a binding commitment they had made.
Love is not required of marriage under the natural law.

And yes, when marriage has been changed to be (just) about love then gay marriage becomes a logical result of that shift. If you want to carve into someone over gay marriage being a modern issue carve into heterosexuals and their selfishness.
 
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