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James82
Guest
Very interesting!
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James82
Guest
This parallel passage seems to sidle up with John passage quite nicely!
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James82
Guest
Hi Della,Others have given you some good resources/replies. I would only add that not having the original sense of the expression in either Aramiac or Greek does hinder our full appreciation of Jesus’ words when we try to interpret such passages for ourselves. This is why Christ established his Church–to interpret his words and to teach the truth.Absolutely
So, what do we know about Mary as taught by the Church? Well we know what the CCC teaches. Do you find in that teaching anything that would show her to be less than faithful? Nope And where did she do anything wrong? Nowhere that I know of. If you can point out such examples you might have some reason to be concerned, but there aren’t any. There are misinterpretations of Mary’s actions and words from those who wish to downplay or ignore her part in God’s ongoing plan of salvation of mankind. But in reality we don’t honor her enough for all she did and still does as the faithful “handmaid of the Lord.”
To my knowledge I have not expressed anything that is questioning the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite, I believe in unity with the spirit of Sensus Fidei I am attempting to enrich my biblical reading.
Obviously with the exception of Church Dogma and right interpretations concerning the seven sacraments the Church Fathers themselves were all over the map as regards typological, allegorical and literal readings. Often in stark contrast.
Now, I am not all attempting to say I am an ‘authority’, but I do wish to learn more.
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Della
Guest
Of course, the Church Fathers are not the Magisterium. They are allowed to have differing opinions regarding typology, which is not a matter of doctrine or dogma. So, it hardly matters, is what I’m saying.
Indeed, for Catholics we embrace all the various ways a verse can be read. For us it is “both/and” not the more Protestant idea of “either/or.” 
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Vico
Guest
We have some Biblical information on Mary:Others have given you some good resources/replies. I would only add that not having the original sense of the expression in either Aramiac or Greek does hinder our full appreciation of Jesus’ words when we try to interpret such passages for ourselves. This is why Christ established his Church–to interpret his words and to teach the truth.
So, what do we know about Mary as taught by the Church? Do you find in that teaching anything that would show her to be less than faithful? And where did she do anything wrong? If you can point out such examples you might have some reason to be concerned, but there aren’t any. There are misinterpretations of Mary’s actions and words from those who wish to downplay or ignore her part in God’s ongoing plan of salvation of mankind. But in reality we don’t honor her enough for all she did and still does as the faithful “handmaid of the Lord.”
Most Pure (Mt. 1:18, 20, 23; Lk 1:27,34)
18 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.
23 Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?
Most Prudent (Lk 2:19, 51)
19 But Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart.
Most Humble (Lk 1:48)
48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Most Faithful (Lk 1:45; Jn 2:5)
45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.
5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
Most Devout (Lk 1:46-7; Acts 1:14)
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Most Obedient (Lk 1:38; 2:21-2, 27)
38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
21 And after eight days were accomplished, that the child should be circumcised, his name was called JESUS, which was called by the angel, before he was conceived in the womb.
22 And after the days of her purification, according to the law of Moses, were accomplished, they carried him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord:
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law,
Most Poor (Lk 2:7)
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him up in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Most Patient (Jn 19:25)
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.
Most Merciful (Lk 1:39, 56)
39 And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda.
56 And Mary abode with her about three months; and she returned to her own house.
Most Sorrowful (Lk 2:35)
35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.
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Della
Guest
All this is a part of Sacred Tradition, as are the Church Fathers, yes? There are references to Mary in the OT, as well. The Church derives it’s teachings about her from all these sources–that’s my point. :tiphat:
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DaveBj
Guest
I have some questions that are an off-shoot of this topic, based on the above comments, but rather than hijack this thread I’m going to start a new one.
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Mintaka
Guest
Re: “My hour has not yet come” —
Most commentators seem to think that this means, “My hour to announce I’m the Messiah has not yet come.”
This tied in with “I’m going to do this miracle, but I’m not going to announce I’m the Messiah or God,” which is another common interpretation.
Scott Hahn and Brent Pitre and such folks talk about how one of the Messiah’s jobs when he showed up conquering and being glorious, in traditional Jewish belief, was to give the people a big Messianic banquet where everybody would eat and drink as much as they liked, and God Himself would attend. So in this case, it means “My hour to hold the Messianic banquet and do all kinds of awesome eschatological judgment and rule things? Not yet, Mom.”
However, given the association of wine with blood, and the way Jesus usually talks about His hour, and the association of the Genesis story with Sarah’s tomb – it probably means, “Okay, I’ll help out with this wedding, but My hour to drink wine, and then suffer and die and be buried for My Bride the Church, has not yet come.” Because Jesus is always saying this, until the Passion comes along. Sometimes He says He longs for it, and then in Gethsemane, not so much. Then when they come to arrest Him, He says that His hour has come.
Most commentators seem to think that this means, “My hour to announce I’m the Messiah has not yet come.”
This tied in with “I’m going to do this miracle, but I’m not going to announce I’m the Messiah or God,” which is another common interpretation.
Scott Hahn and Brent Pitre and such folks talk about how one of the Messiah’s jobs when he showed up conquering and being glorious, in traditional Jewish belief, was to give the people a big Messianic banquet where everybody would eat and drink as much as they liked, and God Himself would attend. So in this case, it means “My hour to hold the Messianic banquet and do all kinds of awesome eschatological judgment and rule things? Not yet, Mom.”
However, given the association of wine with blood, and the way Jesus usually talks about His hour, and the association of the Genesis story with Sarah’s tomb – it probably means, “Okay, I’ll help out with this wedding, but My hour to drink wine, and then suffer and die and be buried for My Bride the Church, has not yet come.” Because Jesus is always saying this, until the Passion comes along. Sometimes He says He longs for it, and then in Gethsemane, not so much. Then when they come to arrest Him, He says that His hour has come.
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James82
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Thank you Vico!
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tp3192000
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Thank you for explaining exactly what you were saying. I don’t believe I have ever heard anyone say that Mary is essential to our salvation, although she certainly assists in that regards.Sure
What I meant is that if a translator at some point in time, out of zealous passion for Our Lady meant to suggest that the BVM was integral(Merriam-Webster: Integral -a : essential to completeness)
to our salvation.
Note that I’m not saying she is not integral to our pilgrimage here on earth; she very much is. This is only a valid concern if the ‘hour’ that Christ refers to in the next sentence is the same ‘hour’ of His Death and Passion on the Cross. But even I admit that is not really a valid concern considering the fullness of the relationship with his mother. However it can lead the reader confused.
I was not concerned solely with the literal translation and syntax itself, but the meaning behind the statement of Christ. Does that make more sense?
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Della
Guest
Essential in that God chose her from the foundations of the world to be the Mother of God. All of us have been chosen to do God’s will, of course. Most of us will not be known by others nor have such an essential mission, but God looks on our faithfulness in his plan more than on the position he has chosen for us. This is why Jesus said that it is better to be faithful than chosen. For although all are chosen, not all are faithful. Of course, Mary was faithful in every way–this is why she was honored by St. Elisabeth: “Blessed are you who believed what the Lord said would be accomplished in you…” Believing here means more than mental consent–it means embracing and accepting the mission God appointed for Mary.Thank you for explaining exactly what you were saying. I don’t believe I have ever heard anyone say that Mary is essential to our salvation, although she certainly assists in that regards.
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