With the pope against the homoheresy

[CopticChristian]

You mean the sex abuse crisis- where America learned that hundreds of children were raped and their priest-abusers were systematically moved from place to place to cover-up said abuse and place the pedophile priests where they could rape other children?

I have never heard of this “homosexual priest scandal”, of which you write.

Maybe it is found in the same realm as this “homomafia” and the “homoheretics” .

Ringil,

I imagine that the Pedophelia scandal may be the tip of the iceberg. Shall we wait and hold judgement as things unravel.

 

[fix]

It doesn’t matter what religion or ideology you (or they) subscribe to.

These are hyperbolic (i.e., false and exaggerated)* statements intended to demean others. You don’t get a waiver to mistreat others based on your opinion of them.

*e…g, “homomafia”

That is your assertion. The person using those terms, in the OP, was coining terms to describe a reality he finds. They do not apply to every homosexual person. He is applying them to an ideology he found.

 

[pnewton]

Pnewton,

Ignoring something does not make it go away.

Discussion should be oriented towards understanding.

This assumes that something is. You are correct and perhaps I was not clear. It is not the discussion that bothers me as much as two thing.

1. The presumption of truth without facts.
2. The use of explosive rhetoric to reinforce something as truth in absences of evidence. I used to use a signature line that read, “Truth needs no exaggeration.” It also needs no bolstering rhetoric. What we have then is propaganda, not discussion. Catholic discussion when properly done is not about ratings, ad space or fund-raising, as is the secular media, and some religious media.

 

[pnewton]

You mean the sex abuse crisis- where America learned that hundreds of children were raped and their priest-abusers were systematically moved from place to place to cover-up said abuse and place the pedophile priests where they could rape other children? .

Read the John Jay Study for yourself. You will see that the majority was adult males preying on post pubescent males.

Without the media’s hard work on this subject, the Church may have continued to defend the pedophilia ring.

The purpose of the media is to sell ads and make money. They did only partially report the story for this purpose. The fact that we still use terms like “children” shows that they succeded in imparting the limited understanding of the problem that they wanted.

Fortunately, the Catholic Church choose to suffer for its sins in the public eye to a greater extent to actually fix the real problem and not just follow secular politics. For all the bishops that made bad decision, this one decision across the Church actually worked to shut down almost all abuse. In addition to solid accountability practices, the Church instituted a ban on homosexually-inclined men from entering seminary. Even with a vow of chastity, they saw this was the only solution to address the most dominant problem.

When I read here of someone who struggles with this and desired the priesthood, I see this as a young man who is being forced to suffer for the sins of a previous generation. It isn’t fair, but it is the only way the Church can reform. Such suffering does not go in vain.

 

[CopticChristian]

This assumes that something is. You are correct and perhaps I was not clear. It is not the discussion that bothers me as much as two thing.

 

[fix]

Explosive Rhetoric. This is telling. If Rhetoric is the art of discourse, in explanation, persuasion, informing, etc…then you see explosive use of this art.

You believe that this powerful modality is to reinforce ideas that are not as yet known to be true.

Propaganda. The explosive art of discourse to persuade. I don’t see that in my thinking or many others. I see a report, distaste for the report and words in the report, personal offense that has nothing to do with the report and an attempt to understand what is and is not true with elements of bias on both sides of the discussion. I am not sure I would label all of the dialogue propaganda, if anything your position is a propaganda against discourse and you appeal to a higher authority of belief.

Do you believe that in Council through time, there was no discourse, no propaganda, no bias, no this side, that side…do you believe that the Church Councils came together and just talked about what was true, accepted it and then formulated their results?

I posted this on another thread:

Let Us Flee for the Enemy of Truth Is Inside:

Irenaeus (d. 202), in his Against Heresies, recounts a story told by Polycarp (d. 156), who had studied under John. One day the apostle was in the public baths when Cerinthus entered. John stood up and told his companions, “Let us flee, lest the building fall upon us, for the enemy of truth, Cerinthus, is inside.” An ancient tradition holds that John wrote his first two epistles as a counter to the errors of Cerinthus.

If the Apostle were here today and posted something like this what would posters say?

 

[CopticChristian]

I posted this on another thread:

Let Us Flee for the Enemy of Truth Is Inside:

If the Apostle were here today and posted something like this what would posters say?

Fix,

I would venture to say that you are in agreement.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

What you say is consistent with a paradigm I believe in and was offered by other than a Christian writer, Alfred Korzybski…author of Science and Sanity…

Humans “bind time”…in other words information from the past is translated, orally and in writing to future generations so that what we know from the past is known today by this characterestic…ie the Church Oral Tradition…

well then if this is true, knowing that the godless did not just up and die and leave the face of the earth, they had families, they had lives that did the same thing…

The truth transcends time through this process of “time binding”

and is safe to say

Those that offer opposition in time did the same so it stands to reason that those thoughts from the past are seen today through the same process…as those thoughts were passed down through this process…

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

Amen, amen…

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

The purpose of the media is to sell ads and make money. They did only partially report the story for this purpose. The fact that we still use terms like “children” shows that they succeded in imparting the limited understanding of the problem that they wanted.

They sexually assaulted minors. PERIOD.

Without the work of the media, they would have continued sexually assaulting minors.

If for you, the real villain in this case is the media or homosexuality writ large, rather than those who ACTUALLY sexually assaulted minors and those who covered it up then you need to get your priorities in order my friend.

Fortunately, the Catholic Church choose to suffer for its sins in the public eye to a greater extent to actually fix the real problem and not just follow secular politics. For all the bishops that made bad decision, this one decision across the Church actually worked to shut down almost all abuse. In addition to solid accountability practices, the Church instituted a ban on homosexually-inclined men from entering seminary. Even with a vow of chastity, they saw this was the only solution to address the most dominant problem.

When I read here of someone who struggles with this and desired the priesthood, I see this as a young man who is being forced to suffer for the sins of a previous generation. It isn’t fair, but it is the only way the Church can reform. Such suffering does not go in vain.

This is funny talk right here. If I, as a man, decide to rape a woman today, will you blame it on my heterosexuality? Not bloody likely.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is funny talk right here. If I, as a man, decide to rape a woman today, will you blame it on my heterosexuality? Not bloody likely.

Veritas,

What is it you saw in what Pnewton wrote that caused you formulate that thought?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Veritas,

What is it you saw in what Pnewton wrote that caused you formulate that thought?

This part:

In addition to solid accountability practices, the Church instituted a ban on homosexually-inclined men from entering seminary. Even with a vow of chastity, they saw this was the only solution to address the most dominant problem.

 

[CopticChristian]

This part:

Veritas,

Tell me what it is this means to you…

In addition to solid accountability practices, the Church instituted a ban on homosexually-inclined men from entering seminary. Even with a vow of chastity, they saw this was the only solution to address the most dominant problem.

 

[buffalo]

They sexually assaulted minors. PERIOD.

Without the work of the media, they would have continued sexually assaulting minors.

If for you, the real villain in this case is the media or homosexuality writ large, rather than those who ACTUALLY sexually assaulted minors and those who covered it up then you need to get your priorities in order my friend.

This is funny talk right here. If I, as a man, decide to rape a woman today, will you blame it on my heterosexuality? Not bloody likely.

Catholic teaching has always been to try to resolve your differences before going the legal route. It still is. Again, you might well look at the John Jay stats to see the facts. You will also note that many actually did serve jail time. You will see that pop psychology was ruling the day. Consider, when a bishop sends a priest for counseling and the report comes back he is fit to serve. There is way more to this than meets the eye.

Some Bishops were enabling and may or may have not even known it. Woe to those that did.

In any case, do not construe any of the above as being OK. We just need to work with the facts.

 

[fix]

This is funny talk right here. If I, as a man, decide to rape a woman today, will you blame it on my heterosexuality? Not bloody likely.

Let’s be honest. First if you did such an act you would not be called a pedophile. Secondly, you would still be barred most likely. The problem is rape is a deviation and should be seen as such. Are you claiming that homosexual inclination is equivalent to heterosexuality and should be treated as such?

 

[CopticChristian]

Catholic teaching has always been to try to resolve your differences before going the legal route. It still is. Again, you might well look at the John Jay stats to see the facts. You will also note that many actually did serve jail time. You will see that pop psychology was ruling the day. Consider, when a bishop sends a priest for counseling and the report comes back he is fit to serve. There is way more to this than meets the eye.

Some Bishops were enabling and may or may have not even known it. Woe to those that did.

In any case, do not construe any of the above as being OK. We just need to work with the facts.

Buffalo,

This is not the case today. My personal experience in this regard is this.

My daughter received a text/picture from a boy that was explicit, distasteful and I was angry.

I called the Police and they told me what would happen if I reported it. They gave me the option to report it.

I called the Church and told them about the boy asking for advice. I did not get any. What I got was a phone call from the Bishops office telling me that it had been reported and I was going to meet with the Police. Zero Tolerance.

I had several discussions with the diocese, the Police, they spoke to the boy and it was resolved.

Once the Church these days gets involved…it is not covered up, not advised, it is reported.

 

[fix]

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

It is true.

 

[Jessie5000]

Throughout history the church has had to refine their teachings in response to new realities or new understandings of reality. For instance, we once believed the earth was the centre of the universe. At one time epileptics were even subject to exorcism. We even debated slavery. Social Justice teachings have also evolved due to new understandings of geopolitics and global economies.

Today, it seems that many denominations are trying to come to a deeper understanding of homosexuality because gays and lesbians are demanding to be treated with dignity and be granted a variety of rights. Also, science is bringing new understandings to the topic. The basic argument is: Is homosexuality an innate biological/genetetic reality or is homosexuality merely a choice. Science seems to be leaning towards concluding it is natural but the debate is not yet proven or decided. Time will tell which side is right about this issue as further scientific study will eventually settle the debate.

What is true is that societies and many denominations are trying to grapple with the issue of homosexuality because it is evident that this group of people have been treated poorly, and been systemically abused… For example, homosexuals also suffered in the holocaust, and today many are attacked on the streets… basically, the homosexuals have been victims of abuse and exclusion. For instance, Uganda is considering the death penalty for homosexuality.

In addition, many theologians (both Catholic and protestant) are debating this issue with many calling for significant changes to christian understandings and teachings with respect to homosexuality. This is due deeper understandings of scripture and the subsequent exegesis and the newer finding of science. In essence, we will just have to see where this brings our church knowing the holy spirit will enlighten and guide us toward truth.

I know the the debate is beginning and not over. Whatever the outcome of this debate we know that all good christians want to be on the side of truth, even if the truth is contrary to current teaching or if the truth just confirms present teaching. Whatever, the outcome, our current understandings of love dictate that we must love and be inclusive to all people as in their present state. I know that God accepts just as we are and not as we should be given we all fall short…this is why “all” need a saviour, both straight and gay. Like Christ said to Peter…"I have much more to tell you but you can not bear it…thus, I shall send a paraclete (Holy Spiritit). Thought history, we have, as a church adapted our understandings because the kingdom of God is unfolding and the Holy Spirit guides us and brings us to new and deeper understandings of truth. Ultimately, it is the truth that sets us free.

 

[buffalo]

Buffalo,

This is not the case today. My personal experience in this regard is this.

My daughter received a text/picture from a boy that was explicit, distasteful and I was angry.

I called the Police and they told me what would happen if I reported it. They gave me the option to report it.

I called the Church and told them about the boy asking for advice. I did not get any. What I got was a phone call from the Bishops office telling me that it had been reported and I was going to meet with the Police. Zero Tolerance.

I had several discussions with the diocese, the Police, they spoke to the boy and it was resolved.

Once the Church these days gets involved…it is not covered up, not advised, it is reported.

I understand.

I must question the wisdom of all of this. We live in a culture that is infected. Even children that are well disciplined will be immature. A kid comes into school and makes a gun sign with his fingers and he is arrested? Should this kid get a police record for his offense against your daughter? I would be angry too. If it was my son I would make sure he paid big time, but I would not want him to get a police record. I have mixed feelings on all of this. One part tells me we are getting ridiculous and losing all common sense, another part tells me that we are putting band aids on the problem.

 

[buffalo]

Today, it seems that many denominations are trying to come to a deeper understanding of homosexuality because gays and lesbians are demanding to be treated with dignity and be granted a variety of rights. Also, science is bringing new understandings to the topic. The basic argument is: Is homosexuality an innate biological/genetetic reality or is homosexuality merely a choice. Science seems to be leaning towards concluding it is natural but the debate is not yet proven or decided. Time will tell which side is right about this issue as further scientific study will eventually settle the debate.

What is true is that societies and many denominations are trying to grapple with the issue of homosexuality because it is evident that this group of people have been treated poorly, and been systemically abused… For example, homosexuals also suffered in the holocaust, and today many are attacked on the streets… basically, the homosexuals have been victims of abuse and exclusion. For instance, Uganda is considering the death penalty for homosexuality.

In addition, many theologians (both Catholic and protestant) are debating this issue with many calling for significant changes to christian understandings and teachings with respect to homosexuality. This is due deeper understandings of scripture and the subsequent exegesis and the newer finding of science. In essence, we will just have to see where this brings our church knowing the holy spirit will enlighten and guide us toward truth.

I know the the debate is beginning and not over. Whatever the outcome of this debate we know that all good christians want to be on the side of truth, even if the truth is contrary to current teaching or if the truth just confirms present teaching. Whatever, the outcome, our current understandings of love dictate that we must love and be inclusive to all people as in their present state. I know that God accepts just as we are and not as we should be given we all fall short…this is why “all” need a saviour, both straight and gay. Like Christ said to Peter…"I have much more to tell you but you can not bear it…thus, I shall send a paraclete (Holy Spiritit). Thought history, we have, as a church adapted our understandings because the kingdom of God is unfolding and the Holy Spirit guides us and brings us to new and deeper understandings of truth. Ultimately, it is the truth that sets us free.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Old people are being attacked on the streets.

Politically motivated science may be leaning that way. It does not make it true.

You really think theologians debating are going to change what the church considers intrinsically disordered? Very few sins rise to that level.

 

[CopticChristian]

Throughout history the church has had to refine their teachings in response to new realities or new understandings of reality.

Today, it seems that many denominations are trying to come to a deeper understanding of homosexuality because gays and lesbians are demanding to be treated with dignity and be granted a variety of rights.

What is true is that societies and many denominations are trying to grapple with the issue of homosexuality because it is evident that this group of people have been treated poorly, and been systemically abused…

In addition, many theologians (both Catholic and protestant) are debating this issue with many calling for significant changes to christian understandings and teachings with respect to homosexuality. In essence, we will just have to see where this brings our church knowing the holy spirit will enlighten and guide us toward truth.

I know the the debate is beginning and not over. Whatever the outcome of this debate we know that all good christians want to be on the side of truth, even if the truth is contrary to current teaching or if the truth just confirms present teaching. Whatever, the outcome, our current understandings of love dictate that we must love and be inclusive to all people as in their present state. I know that God accepts just as we are and not as we should be given we all fall short…this is why “all” need a saviour, both straight and gay. Like Christ said to Peter…"I have much more to tell you but you can not bear it…thus, I shall send a paraclete (Holy Spiritit). Thought history, we have, as a church adapted our understandings because the kingdom of God is unfolding and the Holy Spirit guides us and brings us to new and deeper understandings of truth. Ultimately, it is the truth that sets us free.

Jessie,

You have thoughts. This statement from the Catechism will never change…

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

and when you consider that the OHCAC is Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Catholic Latin/East…understand that the above is mild when compare to what the Eastern Orthodox have to say…

Recall we are looking for unity with the Eastern Orthodox in mind/spirit…

holy-trinity.org/morality/homosexuality.html

The Orthodox Church believes that homosexuality should be treated by society as an immoral and dangerous perversion and by religion as a sinful failure. In both cases, correction is called for. Homosexuals should be accorded the confidential medical and psychiatric facilities by which they can be helped to restore themselves to a self-respecting sexual identity that belongs to them by God’s ordinance.

In full confidentiality, the Orthodox Church cares and provides pastorally for homosexuals in the belief that no sinner who has failed himself and God should be allowed to deteriorate morally and spiritually.

Psychiatric restoration, without religious direction and reconciliation with God, is bound to prove short lived.

A healthy society and various religions do not recognize perversions. Rather, they work to restore the homosexual to the status of a self-esteemed individual and thus to a valued instrument of their own survival and wellbeing under God.

So, you will need to be deep in prayer to understand that to have consensus on this issue is going to take some time…

This is due deeper understandings of scripture and the subsequent exegesis and the newer finding of science.

Explain this in light of the following…

We base our beliefs on Scripture/Tradition…how is a deeper understanding of Scripture going to change anything…?

Church teaching says nothing about Scripture alone…

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”

Have you not noticed that science is stifled in regards to understanding Homosexuality…see the videos that were noted as it regards the stifling of research…science is being stifled…those that have an agenda want acceptance not study…

Explain your understanding of Scripture exegesis…where is this documented?

Explain where you see science as it regards this issue is being promoted?

 

[fix]

Throughout history the church has had to refine their teachings in response to new realities or new understandings of reality. For instance, we once believed the earth was the centre of the universe. At one time epileptics were even subject to exorcism. We even debated slavery. Social Justice teachings have also evolved due to new understandings of geopolitics and global economies.

Today, it seems that many denominations are trying to come to a deeper understanding of homosexuality because gays and lesbians are demanding to be treated with dignity and be granted a variety of rights. Also, science is bringing new understandings to the topic. The basic argument is: Is homosexuality an innate biological/genetetic reality or is homosexuality merely a choice. Science seems to be leaning towards concluding it is natural but the debate is not yet proven or decided. Time will tell which side is right about this issue as further scientific study will eventually settle the debate.

What is true is that societies and many denominations are trying to grapple with the issue of homosexuality because it is evident that this group of people have been treated poorly, and been systemically abused… For example, homosexuals also suffered in the holocaust, and today many are attacked on the streets… basically, the homosexuals have been victims of abuse and exclusion. For instance, Uganda is considering the death penalty for homosexuality.

In addition, many theologians (both Catholic and protestant) are debating this issue with many calling for significant changes to christian understandings and teachings with respect to homosexuality. This is due deeper understandings of scripture and the subsequent exegesis and the newer finding of science. In essence, we will just have to see where this brings our church knowing the holy spirit will enlighten and guide us toward truth.

I know the the debate is beginning and not over. Whatever the outcome of this debate we know that all good christians want to be on the side of truth, even if the truth is contrary to current teaching or if the truth just confirms present teaching. Whatever, the outcome, our current understandings of love dictate that we must love and be inclusive to all people as in their present state. I know that God accepts just as we are and not as we should be given we all fall short…this is why “all” need a saviour, both straight and gay. Like Christ said to Peter…"I have much more to tell you but you can not bear it…thus, I shall send a paraclete (Holy Spiritit). Thought history, we have, as a church adapted our understandings because the kingdom of God is unfolding and the Holy Spirit guides us and brings us to new and deeper understandings of truth. Ultimately, it is the truth that sets us free.

I am sorry but you present the usual canards. The Church cannot change Her teaching on faith and morals. It has never happened and will never happen. Any true example of development of doctrine never reverses itself.