With the pope against the homoheresy

[CopticChristian]

Answers:

1. Because homosexual priests are outnumbered by heterosexual priests. The homosexuals have neither the courage nor the numbers to directly challenge Church teachings on sexuality. Instead, they quietly undermine Church authority on these matters in their preaching, teaching, and counseling.
2. Because most Catholic priests are loving, forgiving, understanding people. They accepted gays into seminaries with the well-intentioned, optimistic belief that sexual orientation doesn’t matter because all priests must be celibate.

Are you sure you read the entire document? The author does an excellent job of explaining the dynamics that gave rise to the homosexual subculture in the priesthood. Many homosexuals are attracted to the priesthood for the wrong reasons (to hide from their sexuality, they don’t want a wife and children, etc.). They naturally reached out to each other for support. As their numbers grew, even more homosexuals started joining and heterosexuals started staying away. “Like attracts like.”

Fintastic,

And there are Catholics, some on these forum threads that argue in favor of The American Psychiatric Association propaganda as if it is true…pleading for understanding and contrast that with Church teaching undermining it to cause reflection that perhaps the Church is wrong and should be more in line with the times…

 

[fix]

Precision always lends credibility, as opposed to rhetoric. Consider the Godwin’s Law. Switching from nazi to mafia is no improvement.

I do not recognize Godwin’s law as reasonable or binding. The priest in the OP is making his case. If people cannot wait to yell they are offended then perhaps those folks can show there are no problems as the OP claims.

 

[JHow]

Precision always lends credibility, as opposed to rhetoric. Consider the Godwin’s Law. Switching from nazi to mafia is no improvement.

To be precise (as Thompson or Thomson might say), the article doesn’t get to “homosexual mafia” until quoting remarks made by a Polish prosecutor regarding the stonewalling he encountered when pursuing a case against a certain priest. (Todd Tamberg, your office is calling).

One of the hallmarks of the real mafia is something called “omertà”. If the boot fits…

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Certainly. A mafia is a criminal organization that employs violence and coercion to enrich itself at the expense of innocent victims.

No evidence exists for any such organization.

Is it your position that people can take it upon themselves to invest heresies?

It seems your definition and use of “mafia” is too narrow.

Time Magazine used gay mafia in this article to write about wealthy and influential gays to get gay-friendly candidates elected / appointed in government positions and anti-gay candidates defeated.

The Gay Mafia That’s Redefining Liberal Politics
By John Cloud/Beverly Hills Friday, Oct. 31, 2008

 

[adrift]

Slander: a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report.

There is no “heresy” of homosexuality, nor is there any evidence of a “mafia” consisting of homosexuals. Therefore, these remarks are false.

No one likes to be accused of “heresy” or of being in a “mafia” as it is insulting. Therefore, these remarks are malicious.

These remarks are false and malicious. Therefore, these remarks are slander.

You have made a mistake in your definition. Where you took it from was a poor definition. Slander is written so what you are probably trying to say is that it is libel. So you say there is no heresy of homosexual.

HERESYCommonly refers to a doctrinal belief held in opposition to the recognized standards of an established system of thought.
Today homosexuality is being presented as not a sin and that they should marry that is a heresy. You are wrong in saying that it is false. The defense against libel and slander is truth which is not on your side.

 

[speakttruth]

Anyone interested should catch Friday Feb. 22’ 2013 episode of The Vortex where Michael Voris discusses this very subject.

I have a subscription to his Vortex, I think he does a great job.
He discussed this a few months back about the underground homosexual mafia and now it coming out and I hope the new Pope gets rid of as many of these evils as he can. Poor Pope Benedict was not able to keep this up. But I think he had a plan for the next Pope.
God help us!

 

[speakttruth]

I am going to jump in here and I am not sure where this is at this point.

It is a fact that there is a homosexual agenda in the priest hood, we have other church’s accepting this behavior is factual. Gay bishops in the Episcopal Church’s we are not immune to the push for this.
We have the Pope talking about the homosexual lobbiest wanting to push for everything under the sun to push there agenda and that is a fact because he was talking about it in his own words. I am sure you can find his speech. I personally know of priests that have told me right out about the corruption in the church. Seminary’s were rampant with homosexuals and I see the bishops that will not even considered putting the Courage ministry in there Church’s and put homosexual accepting ministries. We have a Cardinal in the Vatican that just stepped down after being accused of blackmailing priests because he had sex with them. Why if he was so innocent? Now that hasn’t been proven, but the others are starting to spill there guts. What you see from the top of the iceberg is nothing to what is below. We did 't have the pedophile problems as bad as we have the homosexual problems now because you don’t go to jail for being a homosexual. I know of some that have molested teenagers and they haven’t told on them because they think it was there fault.
I found out after 30 years that I was married it was by an accused pedophile. I went to Rome and while in confession I was discussing my son with SSA and he told me God created him that way. I point blank ask him if he was some kind of liberal priest. When you know personally about homosexuality you have something we call GAY DAR and you get to know the behavior and I know right away if they have this problem… Conspiracy??? what do you think this church is falling apart from? We have disobedient clergy, bishops, cardinals, and the like not telling the truth about what is going on in there parishes. Look up some of the bulletins in some of the churches. If they have any ministries that have Always my children, Rainbow club, Fortunate Families and other type of ministries with the rainbow on it that are in the Catholic church they are really ministries that have the acceptance of homosexuality. Or if they say we have diversity and accept all people another bell should go off. They don’t even try and hide it in a lot of these bullitens.

I know for a fact that there is a priest promoting this in his parish and after being part of Courage and Encourage our own priest knows of these issues that are plaguing the church. My priest sent me the cannon law that says we can point out anything as a lay person that the church or priest is doing in parishes that is going directly against her teachings.

The Catholic Answers is sending emails to fight against DOMA and you think there is no homosexual problems in our church? We are in a mess and it is pretty clear from what I personal witness, so please if the words homo mafia or whatever offend you than think of how offended I am as a parent to have people who are suppose to represent Christ influencing young people in this horrible life style. Spare me the judgments of saying we are sinful because we use words that you do not like. We are saying it like it is. Homo mafia, describing how they are behaving. It is not a secret of how many homosexual have filtered into the church and now you will see that the Vatican is full of them. Do you remember the story of the priests that were going out at night to the gay clubs in Rome and they couldn’t deny it. Look at life sight news they have a priest that was complaining to the Pope that was in Miami about the homosexual agenda that was being allowed by the bishop who later was pulled out because of all the complaints. Over and over we are seeing this, so why is it hard to believe? So many men were walking the streets in Rome as well. I pray that we can find all these people and as our Pope called the filth in the church we should start cleaning up the mess. Look at how disrespected he is. We need purification. Sorry if I offend any of you, but you have no idea the suffering of the families because of all this acceptance.

God help us!

 

[pnewton]

. Or if they say we have diversity and accept all people another bell should go off.

These two points are pretty a pretty good synopsis of what St. Paul wrote in the 12th and 13th chapters of First Corinthians, respectively.

 

[NeedImprovement]

It seems your definition and use of “mafia” is too narrow.

Time Magazine used gay mafia in this article to write about wealthy and influential gays to get gay-friendly candidates elected / appointed in government positions and anti-gay candidates defeated.

The Gay Mafia That’s Redefining Liberal Politics
By John Cloud/Beverly Hills Friday, Oct. 31, 2008

Thanks for posting that link - a very informing read.

For anyone interested in viewing the subject from the perspective of His Eminence, Timothy Cardinal Dolan , this ZENIT interview Countering The Myth of the Gay Priesthood gives some balance.

The actual interview was conducted in the vicinity of 2001 , before “Monsignor” Dolan was appointed auxiliary bishop of St. Louis, Missouri. And we shouldn’t be misled by the title, as (now) His Eminenece, points out, he isn’t denying anything -

ZENIT: Media reports in the United States talk of the priesthood becoming a “gay profession.” How much truth is in this report?

Monsignor Dolan: Reports in the American media that the priesthood is becoming a “gay profession” are inaccurate and unfair.

Are there some homosexual priests? Of course. Priests are human beings, not angels, and reflect – for better or worse – the tendencies found in the rest of society. If, as polls tell us, a certain small percent of the male population are homosexuals, I suppose the same statistics would then apply to men who are priests.

Are there some actively homosexual priests? Of course, as there are some actively heterosexual ones. Sexual promiscuity among priests is sinful, scandalous and a violation, not only of purity, but also of integrity, as our people justly expect their priests to live out sincerely the principles they publicly preach.

To imply that a large number of priests are actively homosexual is sensationalistic. However, I must confess that I worry about the perception now unfortunately common that the priesthood is a “gay profession.” The headlines given to priests who are guilty of pedophilia, or who are promiscuous with other men, and the effeminate, “campy” behavior of some priests, is destructive. . .

Why he is worth reading , is that he has been involved in seminary work firsthand (also wrote an excellent book entitled *Priests For The Third Milennium * ) - so we get a balaced perspective while never losing sight of the truth - from someone who was on the inside instead of only comments from the perimeter.

If anyone can find a more recent interview/statement from His Eminence, Timothy Cardinal Dolan concerning this thread’s topic , I believe we would find that it could serve to enhance all that we’ve read so far.

 

[JHow]

Timothy Dolans 2001 assertions notwithstanding, I wonder if there have been any quantitative estimates of the proportion of priests who are homosexual? I realize that is a difficult question to answer, but it is relevant to the topic and could serve to refute the charge- or prompt deeper reflection on the part of those that see no problem, either way.

 

[epan]

Timothy Dolans 2001 assertions notwithstanding, I wonder if there have been any quantitative estimates of the proportion of priests who are homosexual? I realize that is a difficult question to answer, but it is relevant to the topic and could serve to refute the charge- or prompt deeper reflection on the part of those that see no problem, either way.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholic_priests

“A 2002 nationwide poll in America by the Los Angeles Times of 1,854 Roman Catholic priests reported that 80% of referred to themselves as “mostly” heterosexual, with 67% being exclusively heterosexual, 8% leaning toward heterosexual, 5% completely in the middle, and 6% leaning toward homosexual and 9% saying they are homosexual, for a combined figure of 15% on the homosexual side. Among younger priests (those ordained for 20 years or less) the figure was 23%. The same survey reported that 44% of the priests said “definitely” a “homosexual subculture”, defined as a “definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary”, exists in their diocese or religious order. A 2001 survey conducted by Dean Hoge for Catholic University of America found that 19% of priests said “clearly there is a subculture”, 36% said there probably is and 17% said there is not.”

 

[sw85]

Having read that document, all I can say is that I have concluded that I shouldn’t place much store by hysterical conspiracy theories.

If the Church is ‘riddled’ with powerful homosexual officials who quietly and effectively conspire to subvert the running of the organisation, how then can it be that the Church repeatedly makes public statements attacking that which this vast homosexual conspiracy would supposedly hold dear? You would think that the opposition to homosexual legal unions/marriage would have been muted at best, with only individual bishops coming out against it. But no, the entire Church organisation does so.

This is bizarre thinking. “There are some gays in the Church” does not mean “everyone in the Church is gay.” Likewise, “there are some subversive elements in the Church” does not mean “the Church has been subverted.”

Secondly, how did the conspiracy, should it exist at all, get to be so large? How did this minority sexual proclivity (let’s leave aside all other arguments about why homosexuality exists, since it clearly does exist) get to hold so much sway in the higher echelons of the Church?

I’d suggest reading the paper, he gets to it later on.

What has my age got to do with my understanding? Good grief, that’s a bit impertinent don’t you think?!

As it happens I’m not young any more, more’s the pity!

But you actually make my point for me with respect to the 1970s onwards… The gay ‘lobby’ only really began to make its presence felt in the mid to late 60s. That would simply not be enough time to indoctrinate a large number of priests of whom a number would go on to become bishops in time for the time-period you reference. That’s why I object to these conspiracy theories since they take no account of the practicality of what they propose!

This is more strange thinking. “Began to make its presence felt” does not mean “began to exist.”

And Bishop Joseph McCarthy was quoted as saying, “The State Department is infested with -]communists/-]homosexuals. I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the -]Communist Party/-]Homintern and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department.”

rossum

The American government was in fact riddled with communists, so McCarthy was only wrong on the particulars. There was a communist spy who was almost in the order of Presidential succession for Heaven’s sake!

 

[Elizabeth502]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholic_priests

“A 2002 nationwide poll in America by the Los Angeles Times of 1,854 Roman Catholic priests reported that 80% of referred to themselves as “mostly” heterosexual, with 67% being exclusively heterosexual, 8% leaning toward heterosexual, 5% completely in the middle, and 6% leaning toward homosexual and 9% saying they are homosexual, for a combined figure of 15% on the homosexual side. Among younger priests (those ordained for 20 years or less) the figure was 23%. The same survey reported that 44% of the priests said “definitely” a “homosexual subculture”, defined as a “definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary”, exists in their diocese or religious order. A 2001 survey conducted by Dean Hoge for Catholic University of America found that 19% of priests said “clearly there is a subculture”, 36% said there probably is and 17% said there is not.”

Again, readers of this forum need to understand that these figures represent a slightly ealrier time (10 years ago). Naturally, some of those surveyed would still be priests! But some of those surveyed in 2002 are not. The reason is that the homosexual subculture (esp. in seminaries) was addressed soon after that, and specifically by BXVI, who forbade those with a pronounced identification with homosexuality (“deep-seated tendencies”) from being admitted to seminaries.

In the '90’s, many homosexuals specifically entered seminaries and houses of formation for the express purpose of turning them into homosexual clubs. I know because many of these were my fellow theology students in the late '90s, and they were very Out and UpFront about it. I remember being very alarmed at the time at their boldness, and more alarmed that no one in authority was redirecting this trend, particularly because it was clear that these men had no intention --subculture or no-- of being celibate! . Yet many of those with such “hard-core” intents left seminary shortly thereafter, given that seminaries became unfriendly to “hostile takeovers” of non-religious purpose.

Long story short, I think the quoted figures are accurate for the time period indicated, but they do reflect a slightly earlier situation in time

 

[Gerry49]

Homosexuals in high places is not unusual, its not only in the catholic church it is also very prominent within the media especially tv. For such a small percentage of the population they have a vast percentage of people in high places. The homosexuals within the church are waiting their time. When their time is right they will no longer hide. This is an attack against God and his Church and until all believers (and I include here all pious homosexuals) accept this, the attack will continue. The attack is against Gods Commandments and the Catholic Church is the voice in the wilderness.
Our history has taught us that the way to overcome this attack is with The Rosary and until we turn to The Woman Clothed With The Sun who will stamp her heal on the head of satan the attack will continue. Jesus did say that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Homosexuals in high places is not unusual, its not only in the catholic church it is also very prominent within the media especially tv. For such a small percentage of the population they have a vast percentage of people in high places. The homosexuals within the church are waiting their time. When their time is right they will no longer hide. This is an attack against God and his Church and until all believers (and I include here all pious homosexuals) accept this, the attack will continue. The attack is against Gods Commandments and the Catholic Church is the voice in the wilderness.
Our history has taught us that the way to overcome this attack is with The Rosary and until we turn to The Woman Clothed With The Sun who will stamp her heal on the head of satan the attack will continue. Jesus did say that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.

The mainstream media has indeed served as a vehicle and great facilitator in the normalization of homosexuality and homosexual behavior. I rely less and less on tv and internet “news” as source of information, and forego entertainment from tv programs and films that capitalize on prurient themes (both heterosexual and homosexual). It is no wonder that members of the clergy are not immune from the constant barrage of conditioning by the immoral or amoral secular media.

The poison is pervasive. Teaching is not all about educating in the best interest of our children anymore. The law profession is not all about justice. The medical profession is not all about healing. To whom and where do men and women turn to for grace but to the Lord our God, our faith, and prayer?

 

[ephesians4]

The American government was in fact riddled with communists, so McCarthy was only wrong on the particulars. There was a communist spy who was almost in the order of Presidential succession for Heaven’s sake!

Indeed - I always giggle at the invocation of his name in this way - he has been pretty much vindicated by defectors and subsequent history, almost uniquely among conspiracy -]nu/-] - theorists. Some quite damning admissions and discoveries have confirmed some of (what everybody thought were) his wildest fancies, leaving this residue f other stuff that is either true or (justifiably it now seems) paranoid. The memo is taking a long time to get to some people though.

 

[epan]

Again, readers of this forum need to understand that these figures represent a slightly ealrier time (10 years ago). Naturally, some of those surveyed would still be priests! But some of those surveyed in 2002 are not. The reason is that the homosexual subculture (esp. in seminaries) was addressed soon after that, and specifically by BXVI, who forbade those with a pronounced identification with homosexuality (“deep-seated tendencies”) from being admitted to seminaries.

In the '90’s, many homosexuals specifically entered seminaries and houses of formation for the express purpose of turning them into homosexual clubs. I know because many of these were my fellow theology students in the late '90s, and they were very Out and UpFront about it. I remember being very alarmed at the time at their boldness, and more alarmed that no one in authority was redirecting this trend, particularly because it was clear that these men had no intention --subculture or no-- of being celibate! . Yet many of those with such “hard-core” intents left seminary shortly thereafter, given that seminaries became unfriendly to “hostile takeovers” of non-religious purpose.

Long story short, I think the quoted figures are accurate for the time period indicated, but they do reflect a slightly earlier situation in time

Do you think that the ratios have changed significantly? I mean, there are about 39,000 US priests, with about 500 new ordinants in 2012. That is something like 1-1.5% new priests per year.

 

[djames99]

Yes, there clearly are homosexuals in the Church. There are in every walk of life. It’s a basic fact of life. Homosexuals do jobs just like everyone else does and there have been some very good and holy priests who have also happened to be homosexual (one of which, indeed, to my certain knowledge has had a Cause for Sainthood proposed by many people).

This is an example to avoid, not inspire. The Church teaches that anyone in a state of vincible capital sin does not receive acknowledgment of the good they do while in that state. Resigned acceptance and reluctance to put into action the Word does not mitigate his circumstance. His seeking other groups for approval by consensus and appeal to this way of life rather than accept the truth in doctrine worsens his condition.

Basic Truths override basic facts.

Any discussion on this subject must always proceed from what we know is true concerning homosexuality.

1/God finds it an abomination, therefore, Divine reason suggests that the behavior is alien to man as well. Ages pass in scripture, and still the feeling concerning it remains the same in later passages of NT.
2/Many have benefited by a cure. A consistent procedure undertaken by sincere and devoted individuals always guarantees positive results, therefore, it is not a random occurrence or “miracle”, but instead goes into the remedial classification.

Any discussion or paper that does not proceed from these truths most likely has an ulterior motive.

 

[epan]

Yes, there clearly are homosexuals in the Church. There are in every walk of life. It’s a basic fact of life. Homosexuals do jobs just like everyone else does and there have been some very good and holy priests who have also happened to be homosexual (one of which, indeed, to my certain knowledge has had a Cause for Sainthood proposed by many people).

This is an example to avoid, not inspire. The Church teaches that anyone in a state of vincible capital sin does not receive acknowledgment of the good they do while in that state. Resigned acceptance and reluctance to put into action the Word does not mitigate his circumstance. His seeking other groups for approval by consensus and appeal to this way of life rather than accept the truth in doctrine worsens his condition.

Basic Truths override basic facts.

Any discussion on this subject must always proceed from what we know is true concerning homosexuality.

1/God finds it an abomination, therefore, Divine reason suggests that the behavior is alien to man as well. Ages pass in scripture, and still the feeling concerning it remains the same in later passages of NT.
2/Many have benefited by a cure. A consistent procedure undertaken by sincere and devoted individuals always guarantees positive results, therefore, it is not a random occurrence or “miracle”, but instead goes into the remedial classification.

Any discussion or paper that does not proceed from these truths most likely has an ulterior motive.

I think I missed something. Are you saying that being a homosexual is an abomination?

I was under the impression that it was the sex act that was abominable, and that priests are called to celibacy.

 

[JustaSinner]

Homosexuals do jobs just like everyone else does and there have been some very good and holy priests who have also happened to be homosexual (one of which, indeed, to my certain knowledge has had a Cause for Sainthood proposed by many people).

How well does this sentiment jive with St. Paul’s words–which condemn as sinful not only the homosexual act but even the homosexual desire:
Rom 1:26 “For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. 27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. 28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient;” (Douay-Rheims)

It appears from St. Paul that if someone is in bondage to homosexual desire (which is almost certainly the case if they self-identify as homosexual), then they have been given over to “shameful affections” and therefore are not “very good and holy priests.” That said, we’re all sinners and have many sins which we must continually repent of–but that’s no excuse for treating as indifferent what God has called evil. In fact, it’s the recent excusing of homosexual desires/orientation as a matter of indifference–as long as one doesn’t act on it–which has helped lead to the mess that the Church finds itself in (simply put, how can someone repent/find freedom from something if they think it’s not a sin).

I have a cousin who is in bondage to this particular sin. As a straight guy I can only imagine how hard it would be for him to put to death all his homosexual desires, but I’m certain that God is not weak to give him (or any other homosexual) full and lasting victory from this sin–just as He’s not too weak to give an alcoholic full and lasting deliverance from even the desire for the bottle. (Of course, “lasting victory” doesn’t mean a former-alchoholic should hang around the bar, and likewise I’m sure a delivered former-homosexual would be unwise to hang around a gay bar, for instance) .