Withholding absolution

[Jesness]

Isn’t most crimes breaking God’s law? Is stoning God’s justice or man’s justice? If I forged a cheque, isn’t it against the Eighth Commandment?

Stoning is God’s justice, He tells the Israelites that any man or animal that touches Mount Sinai while Moses is getting the ten commandments must be stoned to death, in Exodus. Stoning is commanded by God for many things in the old covenant.

Edit: Lol, I don’t know which is the eighth commandment is off the top of my head, but judging from the context of the question, I’m going to assume ‘Thou shalt not murder?’ Murder is the taking of innocent life. This is different from the Israelites stoning a person based on God’s justice.

Does earthly law hold God in any way? Once we’re forgiven by God, what good does earthly restitution do us?

Again, what interest in our salvation does going into an earthly prison serve us? If we have trully repented and have gained God’s mercy and forgiveness, what purpose does the prison serve us? Confession was established as a Sacrament by Christ for the salvation of our souls. What role does prison play in our salvation when we’ve already reformed?

Let me ask you this. Say someone purposely comes and burns your house down. Afterwards they see how they’ve sinned against God and you. They are truly sorry for their sins, and repent in confession. Now they’re forgiven by God and are completely free and clear. However, should you now be stuck with the cost of building a new house or should the person who burned it down be made to make restitution for it?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Because of the chronic nature of that condition, surely the priest would assume that it was a grave risk? Might he compel the person to seek therapy or move away to a remote place?

Again this is a “but what if…” and it has been answered.

A priest can not compel anything outside the confessional be done. A priest can not assume anything. If a person comes to confession repentant and says that they will amend their life to not sin again (though we all sin and can not really stop hence our need to continue to use the sacrament of penance) he must grant absolution.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Stoning is God’s justice, He tells the Israelites that any man or animal that touches Mount Sinai while Moses is getting the ten commandments must be stoned to death, in Exodus. Stoning is commanded by God for many things in the old covenant.

The 10 Commandments were God’s laws. The rest were interpretations of the 10 by Moses. Didn’t Jesus clarify that when he clarified divorce? There was a provision for divorce on Levitical Law but Jesus clarified Moses put it there because of the hardness of their hearts.

Edit: Lol, I don’t know which is the eighth commandment is off the top of my head, but judging from the context of the question, I’m going to assume ‘Thou shalt not murder?’ Murder is the taking of innocent life. This is different from the Israelites stoning a person based on God’s justice.

Forging a cheque is not murder
Eight Commandment is “Thou shalt not bear false witness”, which forgery falls on. But forgery is also a civil crime.

Let me ask you this. Say someone purposely comes and burns your house down. Afterwards they see how they’ve sinned against God and you. They are truly sorry for their sins, and repent in confession. Now they’re forgiven by God and are completely free and clear. However, should you now be stuck with the cost of building a new house or should the person who burned it down be made to make restitution for it?

I paid insurance on my home. My perception of justice is that he pay for my home plus damages. But that’s not God’s view on justice. The man has repented and He has forgiven. That is that.

 

[Jesness]

The 10 Commandments were God’s laws. The rest were interpretations of the 10 by Moses. Didn’t Jesus clarify that when he clarified divorce? There was a provision for divorce on Levitical Law but Jesus clarified Moses put it there because of the hardness of their hearts.

Forging a cheque is not murder
Eight Commandment is “Thou shalt not bear false witness”, which forgery falls on. But forgery is also a civil crime.

And if caught that person will be punished to whatever the extent of the law is for that crime.

I paid insurance on my home. My perception of justice is that he pay for my home plus damages. But that’s not God’s view on justice. The man has repented and He has forgiven. That is that.

David was forgiven for the sin he committed Uriah the Hittite, but God still took the first born child of that sinful union. Without restitution repentance becomes a worthless. This is the whole point of penance. Restitution.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

David was forgiven for the sin he committed Uriah the Hittite, but God still took the first born child of that sinful union. Without restitution repentance becomes a worthless. This is the whole point of penance. Restitution.

Yet penance is not required to recieve absolution. Absolution is given before any penance is done.

 

[bobolink]

Yet penance is not required to recieve absolution. Absolution is given before any penance is done.

What if a man confesses murder, but knows that an innocent suspect is to be executed in the morning. Might absolution be withheld? Need the innocent man die? can the guilty man be absolved and then allow the innocent man to be killed? Can the priest do anything here at all?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

What if a man confesses murder, but knows that an innocent suspect is to be executed in the morning. Might absolution be withheld? Need the innocent man die? can the guilty man be absolved and then allow the innocent man to be killed? Can the priest do anything here at all?

“But what if…”

 

[bobolink]

“But what if…”

Surely letting a man be killed for your crime is a mortal sin in itself?

Surely that would invalidate the confession since while you’re being absolved you have an intention to commit this further sin?

 

[FrDavid96]

but…but…

but what if its part of the penance? I’ve heard of priests saying to return something that was stolen (or donate the equivalent amount in money to the poor) as part of the penance. Could a priest subscribe “turning oneself in” as penance?

No.

 

[FrDavid96]

Because of the chronic nature of that condition, surely the priest would assume that it was a grave risk? Might he compel the person to seek therapy or move away to a remote place?

No.

The priest cannot “compel” the penitent to do anything that even remotely might reveal the sin. He can counsel that; but he cannot compel it.

 

[FrDavid96]

This is a “but what if…” scenario as described above.

If the person is confessing how does a priest know they are still abusing children?

I guess the priest could ask if they plan on doing it again and if the answer is yes then he can withhold absolution but I believe that is the only way it could happen.

In a situation like that, the priest is delaying absolution because the penitent is not contrite (intends to do it again), but that’s not the same thing as making the revelation of the sin a condition for absolution.

 

[Evan]

Surely letting a man be killed for your crime is a mortal sin in itself?

Surely that would invalidate the confession since while you’re being absolved you have an intention to commit this further sin?

It might be a sin, but ‘mortal’? Does the person INTEND that this innocent die? Did not the state use due process? The priest is not there to judge the person, that is God’s role and his ministers of justice on the court. The sacrament is to offer reconciliation, not justice.

How do we know this person is correct in confessing he killed the man. Have you not watched enough mysteries with a twist where the obvious perpetrator only thought he killed the man but someone later showed up and performed the act?

Perhaps the court is right and the man is wrong. Let justice do it’s job and reconciliation do it’s job. And don’t mix the two.

What would you have the poor priest do if a man confesses and another has already been condemned? We are all guilty and all will be judged at the end of time.

 

[FrDavid96]

What if a man confesses murder, but knows that an innocent suspect is to be executed in the morning. Might absolution be withheld? Need the innocent man die? can the guilty man be absolved and then allow the innocent man to be killed? Can the priest do anything here at all?

The priest still cannot compel the guilty one to reveal his guilt. He can’t make revelation of the sin a condition for absolution. However…

Neither can the guilty one be absolved, though, because he is still in the midst of committing the sin of murder (by allowing the innocent one to be killed by the state–essentially acting as an unwitting agent of the guilty one). So, while he cannot be absolved, the priest still cannot make absolution conditional upon revealing the guilty party.

 

[Jesness]

Yet penance is not required to recieve absolution. Absolution is given before any penance is done.

But it is given. The confessing person knows they’re going to likely get a penance going in. I’m not Catholic; what is the Church’s teaching on refusing to do one’s penance?

 

[FrDavid96]

“But what if…”

No !



Too bad I couldn’t place any bets on this happening.

 

[FrDavid96]

But it is given. The confessing person knows they’re going to likely get a penance going in. I’m not happens, but what is the Church’s teaching on refusing to do one’s penance?

And that is one of the reasons why the Church forbids a priest to enjoin any penance that would require the penitent to reveal his guilt. Otherwise, people (regardless of the severity of the sin) would never feel free to confess their sins openly in Confession. Only secure in the knowlege that they will never be forced to reveal their guilt can penitents be free to confess.

 

[Evan]

But it is given. The confessing person knows they’re going to likely get a penance going in. I’m not Catholic; what is the Church’s teaching on refusing to do one’s penance?

The purpose of penance is to draw you closer to God, not to bring justice to the world.

 

[Elizium23]

God’s justice is different from man’s justice. Why do you still need to go to the police if God has already forgiven your sins? Isn’t God the higher authority? (Highest in fact)

EDIT:

To add, didn’t Jesus do the same? When he forgave the adultrous woman who was about to be stoned, did Jesus still subject her to earthly authority? Which means she is still to be stoned? So why do we need to go to prison after God has forgiven us?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

Therefore it is healthy for someone who is guilty of a crime to turn himself in and endure the punishment for it. This might also include restitution to victims. All of this can be highly encouraged by the confessor. If the penitent wants to do the right thing then he should definitely consider turning himself in. It could have the effect of preventing worse crimes by this person in the future.

 

[advent_carol]

Yes, I am aware of that “No. Never. Ain’t Gonna Happen” reply to the “what-ifs” re. conditional absolution.

Which made me wonder if any pedophile priests confessed their sin, were given absolution and then confessed doing it again. And again. And again…saying mass, receiving communion all the while in a state of mortal sin. So the confessor gives absolution every time. Or perhaps he begins to question the sincerity of the sinner, and refuses absolution on that grounds. But never can the victims be protected by the confessor offering a conditional absolution that the pedophile-“penitent” turn himself in to civil authorities.

I get it. I get it. (I guess).