Without Authority there is only Force

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mlchance

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Frequently we read protestations about how it is improper for the people to “impose beliefs” on others. Often, these warnings against imposing beliefs, legislating, morality, and using force to control others are wrapped in a red, white, and blue package. America, we are told to believe, is first and foremost about freedom, which seems to be defined as, “doing whatever one wants to do.”

Other times, these warnings are couched in more philosophical/theological terms, emphasizing “freedom of conscience,” which still means “doing whatever one wants to do.” Whatever the arguments, the goal is the same: to defend individual freedom against outside constraints.

These proponents of liberty (let’s call them liberals) base their arguments on a rejection of authority. The liberal’s argument against “imposing beliefs” stands on the idea that no person and no institution has the authority to dictate limits to the freely chosen actions of others. Unfortunately, this basis for the liberal’s argument is false.

Theologically, God is the supreme authority. God’s creative act makes him the author of reality. He has author’s rights, or authority, over all creation. God intervened decisively in history with the Incarnation. Prior to his Ascension, Jesus vested his authority and mission in the Church, the primary vehicle for communicating truth and grace to the world.

Philosophically, for any human action to be just, it must conform to natural law. Natural law is part of human nature. It is the same for all people everywhere. Human choice and conscience can change neither natural law nor divine truth.

Politically, governments may legislate morality. In fact, since justice (a moral concept) is the goal of all law, it is impossible to legislate anything except some version of morality. Governments enact laws against and stipulate punishments for crimes, such as murder or fraud. Reductio ad absurdum demonstrates clearly that the maxim “no person and no institution has the authority to dictate limits to the freely chosen actions of others” is false.

At all three levels of consideration, it is true that there is an authority which can legitimately set limits to freely chosen human actions. So how do liberals justify their support for immoral activity, such as abortion? Simple: They deny any authority to decide moral questions exists (and this takes place on more issues than just abortion).

Theologically, they deny the authority of God (or even his very existence) as well as the authority of the Church. This equally true for non-Catholics who are “pro-choice” as it is true for Catholics who are “pro-choice.” The Church authoritatively teaches abortion is always wrong. She teaches abortion can never be permitted. She teaches that laws that permit (or worse still compel) abortion are unjust and must be changed. She says that all consciences are bound by these teaches, and that anyone who denies these teaches is in error (if not actually committing a grave sin). The “pro-choice” liberal avoids these teachings not by refuting them, but rather by denying their authority.

The same holds true philosophically and politically. The “pro-choice” liberal denies the authority of natural law. He denies that the government has the authority to “trample woman’s fundamental right to choose.”

So, then, when a debate about abortion arises, any appeal to authority is dismissed a prior, not only as being illegitimate but also as being “oppressive” or “dictatorial.” Authority become synonymous in the liberal imagination with “imposing beliefs” and “using force to control others” and “legislating morality.” By extension, those who accept that there is an authority which can answer moral questions become “oppressors” or “tyrants” or “un-American” or (that favorite perjorative of the liberal) have “Nazi tendencies.”

And here is where liberalism collapses entirely. It starts trying to defend freedom, but does by denying authority. Without authority, the only thing that is left to shape public policy or answer moral questions is that very thing which liberals claim to hate: force. Questions of right and wrong are reduced to “might makes right.” At its heart, liberalism is, in the final wash, Nietzchean.

Which explains the great irony of the “pro-choice” liberal. No person and no institution can take away a woman’s “fundament right to choose” because it is immoral to use force to impose value judgments on others.

Except, of course, when a woman wants to impose a judgment about the value of her unborn child and then use lethal force to put that value judgment into effect.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Liberals do not ‘deny’ the existance of God, unless they are atheists. even then it is divided into strong atheism (disbelief) andweak atheism (no-belief). So at core your language is a mish-mash of labels.

Theistic liberals sport a number of view which may or may not be at variance with Catholic teaching. DIsagreeing with Catholic doctrine makes you apostate or heretical, not an atheist.

If you have no beliefs concerning God, or actively claim theist are talking rubbish, then there is no God to deny, and no authority for the ‘deluded’ who do believe, their books, etc.

This seems to me to be something theists just do not understand
 
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mlchance:
Frequently we read protestations about how it is improper for the people to “impose beliefs” on others. Often, these warnings against imposing beliefs, legislating, morality, and using force to control others are wrapped in a red, white, and blue package. America, we are told to believe, is first and foremost about freedom, which seems to be defined as, “doing whatever one wants to do.”
Freedom is not doing whatever one wants to do, no one will argue for the freedom to rape others, for example. Reducing modern ideas of freedom to doing whatever one wants to do is very unfair and misrepresents these principles.
These proponents of liberty (let’s call them liberals) base their arguments on a rejection of authority. The liberal’s argument against “imposing beliefs” stands on the idea that no person and no institution has the authority to dictate limits to the freely chosen actions of others. Unfortunately, this basis for the liberal’s argument is false.
People acknowledge the role of the government in placing limits on the freely chosen actions of others. Rape, theft, etc. are illegal and people go to jail for them. Reasonable people don’t argue that people should be free to do whatever they want.

If you want to know what living in a theocracy is like, check out life in a Muslim country. Authority has been abused by religious as well as secular people. Did you know that Catholics had ghettos for Jews and made them wear yellow caps to identify themselves long before the Nazis did? The very idea of prosecuting people for heresy is the principle of thought-crimes/political-prisoners in the Soviet Union. The Soviet system of keeping views orthodox i.e. consistent with Communist ideology is not really that much different from the Inquisition keeping heresy out.
 
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Digger71:
Liberals do not ‘deny’ the existance of God, unless they are atheists.
Never said they all did. Your objection is therefore a strawman.
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svoboda:
Freedom is not doing whatever one wants to do, no one will argue for the freedom to rape others, for example.
But liberals do argue there is a freedom to kill unborn children.

And, as is typical, we immediately see the ad hominem unleashed, to include the predicted comparisons to Nazis:
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svoboda:
If you want to know what living in a theocracy is like, check out life in a Muslim country. Authority has been abused by religious as well as secular people. Did you know that Catholics had ghettos for Jews and made them wear yellow caps to identify themselves long before the Nazis did? The very idea of prosecuting people for heresy is the principle of thought-crimes/political-prisoners in the Soviet Union. The Soviet system of keeping views orthodox i.e. consistent with Communist ideology is not really that much different from the Inquisition keeping heresy out.
How disappointingly, dully predictable.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Unfortunately, the political and philosophical terms liberal and conservative are fairly old, their exact definition changes not only from person to person, but over time and in geopolitical area. That makes a conversation on the ideas confused to begin with.
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mlchance:
These proponents of liberty (let’s call them liberals) base their arguments on a rejection of authority. The liberal’s argument against “imposing beliefs” stands on the idea that no person and no institution has the authority to dictate limits to the freely chosen actions of others.
Here I think you misspeak, at least in some cases. As a “proponent of liberty” I would say that no person and no institution has the authority to dictate limits to the freely chosen actions of others that do not harm or otherwise violate the freedom of anyone else.
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mlchance:
Theologically, God is the supreme authority. God’s creative act makes him the author of reality. He has author’s rights, or authority, over all creation. God intervened decisively in history with the Incarnation. Prior to his Ascension, Jesus vested his authority and mission in the Church, the primary vehicle for communicating truth and grace to the world.
Agreed, but please note that you said the Church communicates the truth, not enforces it. If the Church, instituted by Christ himself, does not have the authority to compel adherence to the Truth, how can a government instituted by mere men do so?

I approach it differently. A just government is a cooperative association of individuals who band together to mutually protect/defend their Natural Rights.A just government, then, is simply an agent authorized by the people to act on their behalf, individually and as a group. As an agent of the people, the government can not have any more authority or rights than the individuals do.
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mlchance:
Philosophically, for any human action to be just, it must conform to natural law. Natural law is part of human nature. It is the same for all people everywhere. Human choice and conscience can change neither natural law nor divine truth.
Agreed 100%
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mlchance:
Politically, governments may legislate morality. In fact, since justice (a moral concept) is the goal of all law, it is impossible to legislate anything except some version of morality. Governments enact laws against and stipulate punishments for crimes, such as murder or fraud. Reductio ad absurdum demonstrates clearly that the maxim “no person and no institution has the authority to dictate limits to the freely chosen actions of others” is false.
Again, imo, your idea of freedom is incomplete.
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mlchance:
At all three levels of consideration, it is true that there is an authority which can legitimately set limits to freely chosen human actions. So how do liberals justify their support for immoral activity, such as abortion? Simple: They deny any authority to decide moral questions exists (and this takes place on more issues than just abortion).
I would disagree in two places here.

First, even though I am a “proponent of liberty”, I oppose abortion becuase it violates my expanded definition of freedom, ie the woman/doctor is harming someone else, namely, the unborn child.

Second, many abortion supporters use the same definition I do, but simply deny the unborn is a person. In this way they, too, are not violating the rights of another person, because there is not, to them, another person. This takes the discussion in a different direction. I’ve always suspect they are lying to themselves - that they know it’s a person.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlchance
Politically, governments may legislate morality. In fact, since justice (a moral concept) is the goal of all law, it is impossible to legislate anything except some version of morality. Governments enact laws against and stipulate punishments for crimes, such as murder or fraud. Reductio ad absurdum demonstrates clearly that the maxim “no person and no institution has the authority to dictate limits to the freely chosen actions of others” is false.
It is impossible to legislate morality. Morality is a internal personal trait. Each person has an individual maturity of morality. Morality concerns not only outword behavior and internal virtue. Outward conformity of a moral code is not morality. Morality is an internal measure, a way of measuring possible actions, and acting to promote good. The pharisees followed the moral code of the Jewish, but it did not make them moral people.
 
So you want to make things like adultery a crime, is that it?

Abortion takes the life somebody else. But what people do in their own homes should have nothing to do with the criminal justice system.
 
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