Without contraception there'll be more abortions

[LotusCarsLtd]

I’m having a back-and-forth debate over whether contraception leads to abortion. I argued that it does but the other person in the debate is arguing that contraception does not lead to abortion. Unfortunately I have hit a wall and I cannot counter her arguments.

Here is what she has said recently which I am struggling to find an answer for:

*Without contraceptions we would have more abortions! I know that for a fact because people who do not agree with sex within marriage are going to have sex anyway. I respect everyone’s beliefs. I don’t believe it the best thing in the world to do but everyone is entitled to there own beliefs. Sex is a very strong biological pull that is hard to ignore. We are built to want to have sex. You can’t ignore that no matter how much you try. At least with contraception there are fewer chances of abortions and spread disease.

I sorry but I don’t agree with you on natural family planning either. Natural family planning is contraception. There or no physical means that prevents pregency but it is the same idea as contraception. Having sex without getting pregenant. You can put whatever dogma and beliefs you want behind it but it is still that same idea as contraception. Any contraception can fail and allow for God’s infulence just like natural family planning. Natural family planning dictates as much to God as contraception.

I also hate to brake it too you but abortion happens weither someone is married or not.

I have a more practical few of procreation and how people should live there lives. I know you keep giving me articles to read but I’d rather hear your views and thoughts but if all your going to do is recycle what you have heard the church said then this is not a debate.

As for my last comment on NFP. If it is only for grave reasons they why do they teach it to every couple that is going through marriage counseling?*

How do I counter this? She is a mother and has obviously had sex before, whereas I (as an unmarried man) have no experience with sex, marriage, and children.

 

[LittleOne1]

She may be a married women with kids, but she is wrong on this one. As Pope Paul VI acurrately predicted in Humanae Vitae and JPII linked the two together in Evangelium Vitae:
lifenews.com/int604.html

It is the same idea of we should control our bodies that has lead from Contraception to abortion. In fact that is why American College of Gynecology changed their definition of pregnancy from conception to implantation to allow the pill to be legal (since it can act as an abortifacient) before Roe v Wade. It was the language used in Griswold vs Conneticut that made a right to privacy (in this case using contraception), which was used to defend Roe v Wade and Doe v Bolton. Contraceptive mentality paved the way for abortion.

When we have solid foundation in the Truth and a society that supports this amazing things can happen. Unfortunately society brainwashes youth with a self centered lifestyle and says its okay to do it.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

The claim seems to be that by replacing one wrong, abortion, with another wrong, contraception, things are made better. The basis of the claim is flimsy, because even if one wrong replaces a presumed greater wrong, the right choice is neither.

And it flies in the face of human nature, as history indicates it to be. Committing a first wrong does help in avoiding future wrongs. It makes committing future wrongs that much less of a departure from an established behaviour pattern. And in the case of contraception and abortion, that is a rather short step. Contraception is not 100% effective, and should a pregnancy occur, then the established behaviour pattern is consistent with not wanting the child in the first place, and taking active steps to not have it come into being. So an abortion would be a continuation of an established behaviour pattern, which is a shorter step than embarking on a new pattern.

So there is a strong argument that contraception can lead to an environment that favours abortion.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ask her to explain how, in the 40 years that contraceptives have become widely available, the rate of abortions has skyrocketed as compared to the rate of abortions before the widespread availability of contraception.

I was a teen when they tried to pull that line on us women, about how abortions were to be ‘rare’ and how education and contraception would ensure that the only children born would be ‘wanted’ children.

Hmmm, you could also ask her to explain the skyrocketing rates of child abuse, neglect, abandonment etc. in the last 40 years. With the availability of contraception and abortion, you’d have thought child abuse would be less than it was ‘before’ these ‘gifts’. . .

 

[Orchanian]

All good comments. Also, I think she may have a mistaken understanding of NFP. NFP is not contraception. Contraception is blocking conception during the sexual act. NFP is abstaining from sex during fertile periods. God created women with fertile and infertile times of the month. We can morally use those times to abstain if we want to avoid pregnancy. Families who practice NFP have very low divorce rates (under 1%) - for many reasons related to NFP.

Her argument that you should not repeat what the church teaches is a false one. Why should we not repeat an argument that we support? We don’t have to be the originator of an idea or position in order for it to be valid. I can understand the comment if you had simply said, “That’s what the church teaches” without explaining the reasons why. But if you gave the reasons and she still gave this response, she’s trying to avoid discussing the actual points of your position (probably because she doesn’t have a good counter argument). It’s kind of like telling someone - That’s a stupid idea because you have green eyes. The color of my eyes is irrelevant to the idea I propose.

 

[MercyMia]

I’m having a back-and-forth debate over whether contraception leads to abortion. I argued that it does but the other person in the debate is arguing that contraception does not lead to abortion. Unfortunately I have hit a wall and I cannot counter her arguments.

Here is what she has said recently which I am struggling to find an answer for:

*Without contraceptions we would have more abortions! I know that for a fact because people who do not agree with sex within marriage are going to have sex anyway. I respect everyone’s beliefs. I don’t believe it the best thing in the world to do but everyone is entitled to there own beliefs. Sex is a very strong biological pull that is hard to ignore. We are built to want to have sex. You can’t ignore that no matter how much you try. At least with contraception there are fewer chances of abortions and spread disease.

I sorry but I don’t agree with you on natural family planning either. Natural family planning is contraception. **There or no physical means that prevents pregency but it is the same idea as contraception. ***Having sex without getting pregenant. You can put whatever dogma and beliefs you want behind it but it is still that same idea as contraception. Any contraception can fail and allow for God’s infulence just like natural family planning. Natural family planning dictates as much to God as contraception.

I also hate to brake it too you but abortion happens weither someone is married or not.

I have a more practical few of procreation and how people should live there lives. I know you keep giving me articles to read but I’d rather hear your views and thoughts but if all your going to do is recycle what you have heard the church said then this is not a debate.

As for my last comment on NFP. If it is only for grave reasons they why do they teach it to every couple that is going through marriage counseling?

How do I counter this? She is a mother and has obviously had sex before, whereas I (as an unmarried man) have no experience with sex, marriage, and children.

red = what contraception is basically by defintion so if NFP is not that, it is cleary not contraception. She is basically saying contracepton is X but nfp is not X but it is still exactly the same as contraception

 

[rep140]

Ask her to explain how, in the 40 years that contraceptives have become widely available, the rate of abortions has skyrocketed as compared to the rate of abortions before the widespread availability of contraception.

I’m not so sure that it’s so easy to make this point. I think that the abortion rate has skyrocketed because it’s now legal and readily available.

I do think, however, that the widespread use of contraceptives in combination with easily obtained abortions have contributed to the moral decline in society.

 

[tjm190]

Ask her to explain how, in the 40 years that contraceptives have become widely available, the rate of abortions has skyrocketed as compared to the rate of abortions before the widespread availability of contraception.

I was a teen when they tried to pull that line on us women, about how abortions were to be ‘rare’ and how education and contraception would ensure that the only children born would be ‘wanted’ children.

Hmmm, you could also ask her to explain the skyrocketing rates of child abuse, neglect, abandonment etc. in the last 40 years. With the availability of contraception and abortion, you’d have thought child abuse would be less than it was ‘before’ these ‘gifts’. . .

Correlation does not equal causation- can you explain how, in the 50 years that color television has become widely available, that abortion rates have skyrocketed?

 

[tjm190]

Families who practice NFP have very low divorce rates (under 1%) - for many reasons related to NFP.

Care to find a properly conducted study that proves this?

 

[Alindawyl]

How do I counter this?

You will have an incredibly difficult time countering her on this as long as she thinks there’s nothing wrong with contraception. She’s not likely to change her mind on that with how deeply she’s bought into relativism and how badly she misunderstands NFP. You’re better off dropping this topic and picking something else to discuss first, such as contraception and how artificial birth control differs from NFP.

 

[LittleOne1]

Remember that actions are judged based upon the act itself, hoped for benefits, and the situation in which the act happens.
Will give a generic situation for both NFP and Contraception.
Married couple with 4 kids and bread winner lost job, wants to wait until more financially secure before another child.
Action:
Contraception: An act that is seperate from intercourse and has as its design to frusterate the natural union of sperm and egg thus attempting to make the act not open to life (the possibility that this act of intercourse could result in conception).
NFP: A couple learning the fertile and infertile periods of a woman’s body and working in harmony to decide when they have intercourse, in this case to have intercourse on days the woman is not fertile. They act in such a way not to frusterate the actual act of intercourse from the possibility to be open to life; merely having intercourse on days less likely to lead to a pregnancy.
Ends: In this case both have similar ends though other problems arise from the use of abortifacient contraception (including pill, iud).

Remember that contraception by a couple is the rejection by one or both of the couple’s inherent gift of sexuality that should be the center of the embrace. This rejection ultimately turns the embrace from an act of giving oneself merely into an act of mutual use by one another- hence it becomes selfish in the act itself and degrades the sacredness because now its a twisting of what the embrace should reflect; the trinity.

I think Christopher West explained it well with thsi analogy. Say you have an Aunt Millie from Europe who not fun to be around, ruins family gatherings, and who you wish would not attend your wedding. Now you have two options to hope this does not happen. Either you can not send an invitation at all (NFP) or send a “dis-invitation” stating in no uncertain terms is she welcomed (contraception).
Lets say Aunt Millie shows up anyways… who will be more willing to welcome Aunt Millie; the couple who did not send anything or the couple who tried to tell her do not come? This has what happened with the contraceptive mentality- Children come on our terms when we want them how we want them ect (Burger King for kids). This is why abortion rates are less with couples who use NFP vs those who use contraception (even ones who might have been against abortion beforehand) and why marriage rates are better between couples who use NFP vs those who contracept. Contraception turns one towards oneself everytime.

 

[OraLabora]

Correlation does not equal causation- can you explain how, in the 50 years that color television has become widely available, that abortion rates have skyrocketed?

I would suggest that this is because it brought lewdness, live, in living colour, into every household of the nation, and as such contributed to the corruption of the morals of the public.

Lewdness that may have started out quite mild, but got quite explicit as time goes on to the point where you can now find porn on TV. But it certainly isn’t the sole cause.

This is incidentally, a subjective opinion and not based on any analysis of facts and data.

IOW, I may be wrong. It won’t be the first time. Ask my wife

 

[camerong]

Care to find a properly conducted study that proves this?

In multiple studies where they went back, 20 years later, and surveyed people who received NFP instruction, less than one percent had obtained divorces. Other studies, however, are conducted by disinterested parties. For example, one study, conducted by an independent statistician, found 0.2% divorce rate among couples. It is discussed here: physiciansforlife.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=193

 

[tjm190]

In multiple studies where they went back, 20 years later, and surveyed people who received NFP instruction, less than one percent had obtained divorces. Other studies, however, are conducted by disinterested parties. For example, one study, conducted by an independent statistician, found 0.2% divorce rate among couples. It is discussed here: physiciansforlife.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=193

A- A properly conducted survey includes at-least 1000 respondents.
B- This survey is taken from the wrong population- they decided who to survey based on who had taken certain classes. Therefore, the survey’s results can only speak to the effects that class had
C- Mail in survey’s are completely 100% invalid. They epitomize non-response bias. (25% nonresponse is not acceptable)
D- The questionnaire they sent out needs to be presented
E- The agenda of the organization or individual that published the results is apparent

I can say with no exaggeration that I have never seen a more poorly conducted and invalid survey.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…

Without contraception we would have more abortions! I know that for a fact because people who do not agree with sex within marriage are going to have sex anyway. I respect everyone’s beliefs. I don’t believe it the best thing in the world to do but everyone is entitled to there own beliefs. Sex is a very strong biological pull that is hard to ignore. We are built to want to have sex. You can’t ignore that no matter how much you try. At least with contraception there are fewer chances of abortions and spread disease.

maybe, maybe not. PPVI discussed that (summarizing) that sex would move from a shared responsible action between married people to generally lewd behavior (anybody, anywhere, anytime, anything)

I sorry but I don’t agree with you on natural family planning either. Natural family planning is contraception. There or no physical means that prevents pregnancy but it is the same idea as contraception. Having sex without getting pregnant. You can put whatever dogma and beliefs you want behind it but it is still that same idea as contraception. Any contraception can fail and allow for God’s influence just like natural family planning. Natural family planning dictates as much to God as contraception.

There is some mixing here some of this is correct, however the short version is NFP is a natural form to be used by married couples maintains natural responsibilities. Artificial means require no knowledge of the “partner”

I also hate to brake it too you but abortion happens whether someone is married or not.

I have a more practical few of procreation and how people should live their lives. I know you keep giving me articles to read but I’d rather hear your views and thoughts but if all your going to do is recycle what you have heard the church said then this is not a debate.

As for my last comment on NFP. If it is only for grave reasons they why do they teach it to every couple that is going through marriage counseling?

because a real marriage goes through a multitude of phases through many years.

In summary the church continues to teach sins as abortion, and lewd behavior are unnecessary, a man and a woman can marry and live a fully happy life without lewd actions, abortions, venereal diseases, lying to get “partners”, running from pregnant unmarried woman, etc., etc…

hope that helps

 

[puzzleannie]

I will not post a link to Planned Parenthood here but go to their sources, according to their own numbers, half the abortions are sought because the artificial contraception method has failed. Tell your friend to come up with a better argument. They fail moreover because methods highly promoted are actually relatively ineffective compared with NFP properly practiced, and those who talk teens and young adults into using them are not honest about their effectiveness, not to mention the health risks.

 

[jmcrae]

*Without contraceptions we would have more abortions! I know that for a fact because people who do not agree with sex within marriage are going to have sex anyway. I respect everyone’s beliefs. I don’t believe it the best thing in the world to do but everyone is entitled to there own beliefs. Sex is a very strong biological pull that is hard to ignore. We are built to want to have sex. *

People discover that they have self-control when they see that they have a good reason for it. For example, you should see how fast a boy can pull his pants up and assume a non-chalant pose on the couch several inches away from her (and how fast she gets her blouse buttoned up), when his girlfriend’s father is pulling in to the driveway.

Also, girls who are sensitive about their reputations don’t have all that much difficulty saying “no” to sex.

My strong feeling is that a lack of readily available contraception would result in a higher rate of abstinence from sex. Probably not no sex, since there are always those who don’t believe that anything bad could ever possibly happen to them, but it would be vastly reduced, I think.

 

[EmeraldWings]

people will have abortions just the same, contraception or not, the reason there are so many abortions is not because people can’t get contraception or any other means of birth control, people get abortions because they have no respect for life, no value for the gift of life, no sense of responsibility, the reasons are all in our morals and values, people wouldn’t be getting abortions so much or at all if they were just raised the proper way, which i know is a near impossibly far off idea today, but that is the reason anyways,
no matter what the reason for an abortion, all it takes to stop is good morals and values, i’ve heard of woman who died for their unborn baby to live, that is true love, when woman choose their life and lifestyle over the life of their child, that is not love at all, it’s complete selfishness,

God says to us - “I will call you by name. You are mine. I will give up nations for you. You are precious to Me. Even if a mother forgets her child, I will not forget you”

such deep moving love God has for us, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”
God knew us and loved us before we were conceived, even the least of us, those who were conceived by rape, those who were deformed or mentally challenged, how can we take any life which God has created, who He loves so tenderly, and just destroy that life…anyone who truly loves God would never hurt Him that way, He suffers for the death of our unborn more than anyone, and yet He still loves us, and wishes for us to be happy…how can we be so cruel to a God like that?

although this doesn’t help you with the whole contraception thing…i thought it might give a new light to the subject anyways,
the problem i think is, most people just don’t know what contraception really does, if you want to fight contraception and other means of birth control, read up on what it does and how it all works, because if people won’t listen to the moral side of things, they just may listen to the scientific side…if they don’t listen however, then it’s best to just let it drop, it’s not a good idea to push anything to much, cause it might just make things worse.

 

[camerong]

A- A properly conducted survey includes at-least 1000 respondents.
B- This survey is taken from the wrong population- they decided who to survey based on who had taken certain classes. Therefore, the survey’s results can only speak to the effects that class had
C- Mail in survey’s are completely 100% invalid. They epitomize non-response bias. (25% nonresponse is not acceptable)
D- The questionnaire they sent out needs to be presented
E- The agenda of the organization or individual that published the results is apparent

I can say with no exaggeration that I have never seen a more poorly conducted and invalid survey.

Give me a break. What is your source as to what is a properly conducted survey? Gallup consistently gauges the pulse of the whole nation using only a few thousand responses. Given the tiny population which consistently practices NFP, 505 couples is quite persuasive.

Let me adjust the underlying assertion slightly. Among those who receive training in NFP methods (and training is often/usually necessary for successful practice), a very small percentage later obtain divorces. See, additional discussion of the survey at physiciansforlife.org/content/view/193/36/.

In that study, even if EVERY couple who failed to mail back in a questionnaire had obtained a divorce (an obviously unlikely scenario), the rate of divorce among those who had received NFP training is something like 25%, still remarkably lower than average (even among Catholics).

And while one should certainly consider an organization’s mission and agenda in evaluating studies it conducts, this is certainly not dispositive. It is unlikely that the organization is fabricating their results outright. This is not a situation where responses could be exaggerated, where subjects could be cued by the survey conductors, etc. This is not an experiment, its a survey, not about opinions, but about facts.

And where in the world do you get this idea that the survey questionnaire needs to be presented? I once conducted surveys for Gallup. Even a simple presidential poll was at least 15 questions long. Have you ever heard each question given when evaluating the poll? And surely “Are you divorced or not” is a question much less subject to bias than asking which president a person prefers, intends to vote for, identifies with, etc.

Further still, the findings of the above study are entirely plausible and expected. NFP increases cooperation and communication between spouse. Secular psychologists and sex therapists would overwhelmingly agree that this would make divorces less likely. Is there iron-clad, statistical proof that NFP reduces divorces? Perhaps not, but I would assert that there are neither sufficient people practicing NFP nor institutions sufficiently disinterested to yield the kind of proof you demand.

This study may not be perfect, but you cannot deny that it provides evidence for the assertion that couples who practice, and receive training in, NFP are less likely to be divorced. A rational person believes things most based upon evidence, no? If you wish to dispute that above assertion, the real question is, where is your evidence to the contrary?

 

[Rence]

I’m having a back-and-forth debate over whether contraception leads to abortion. I argued that it does but the other person in the debate is arguing that contraception does not lead to abortion. Unfortunately I have hit a wall and I cannot counter her arguments.

I don’t know in what context you guys are debating contraception and it’s relationship to abortion, BUT, I agree that without contraception there will be more abortions. There are a plethora of abortions now and there is free access to contraception. I’m not sure why some people think the situation will get better by increasing unwanted pregnancies.

Why? Because people are going to have sex, despite the teachings of the CC. People who are having sex outside of marriage are going to continue having sex. It’s not going to stop just because they don’t have contraception. They’ll just have abortions, legally or illegally. Which will create injuries and infections and drive up the costs related to such activity. Which was part of the reason why abortions were legalized in the first place.

You’re basing your beliefs on the beliefs of the CC, however, not everyone is Catholic or even Christian, and truth be told, MANY Catholics don’t adhere to these teachings. Yes, the majority ont his forum do, but IRL, I find that MOST Catholics and Christians alike don’t follow those teachings.

I don’t think it will force people to have sex more responsibly, I think they’ll just have abortions more. As it is, the abortion rate is as high as it is because people either aren’t using contraception at all or aren’t using concraception correctly. If they’re not being more responsible now when it’s right there in front of them, why would they be more responsible if it wasn’t available? If contraception wasn’t available, the abortion rate would absolutely skyrocket because those who are doing it correctly aren’t likely to abstain. In order for people to abstain (especially if they’re already sexually active) they’d have to conform to spiritual beliefs to which they already don’t conform. You can’t force piety or spirituality on people. That’s something they need to find themselves. So I’m not sure how restricting one’s option based on someone else’s religious beliefs is going to make something better.