Without God, all is permitted

[HabemusFrancis]

Is this the case?

Dosteovskys quote has been used many times, but is there any truth to it?

 

[hu324b]

Humankind has its own laws - you would be accountable for your actions while alive on the earth - what your suggesting is pure chaos and an unrealistic view of life.

 

[dshix]

Is this the case?

Dosteovskys quote has been used many times, but is there any truth to it?

In what respect do you mean “without God”?

Do you mean without Him existing? In that case, the answer is no, because without God nothing would exist at all.

In a sense, “all is permitted” in reality even with God, because God does not obstruct our free will in this world. He permits us to do whatever evil things we wish to, and we may not face our justice until the next world.

 

[edwest2]

“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.” Aleister Crowley

Ed

 

[Polycarp1]

Permitted by who?

 

[DaveBj]

Humankind has its own laws - you would be accountable for your actions while alive on the earth - what your suggesting is pure chaos and an unrealistic view of life.

However, those laws would be only of human origin, not divine origin. This means, basically, that they are enforceable only by whoever has the most political power, or sometimes by whoever has the biggest or most guns. This also means that the laws can be changed, if another group comes along with more political power. Or bigger/more guns. I’ve seen that in my own lifetime.

 

[edwest2]

However, those laws would be only of human origin, not divine origin. This means, basically, that they are enforceable only by whoever has the most political power, or sometimes by whoever has the biggest or most guns. This also means that the laws can be changed, if another group comes along with more political power. Or bigger/more guns. I’ve seen that in my own lifetime.

Very well put. Power and laws are sometimes acquired through money, and guns.

Bigger/more guns… sad, but true.

Ed

 

[fisherman_carl]

Is this the case?

Dosteovskys quote has been used many times, but is there any truth to it?

Without God we couldn’t know what is objectively good or evil. We would only have subjective opinion about what is good or evil. Thus, there is a sense in which the OP’s quote is true and that sense would be that everything that one considers to be good is permitted. What one considers to be bad would still not be permitted to be done. One for instance would not kill their own children if they considered that bad. Now, here in lies the problem. Without God giving us an absolute standard for good then we are using our own subjective standard of good. Someone for instance might consider it a good thing to kill unborn babies or have premarital sex or to kill Jews in concentration camps. If good and evil are up to us solely to determine then whatever we think is good is good. And thus we consider ourselves to be good people because we determine what is good based on what we like. We are our own gods. However, if there is an objective standard outside of ourselves that shows us what is good then we can actually have an objective way to determine goodness.

Even if we left the standard of goodness up to society that standard is still relative to the values that society has. The Nazis thought they were doing good by getting rid of Jews they deemed as bad and valueless. The point is we can not even rely on society as a whole to give us an absolute standard of moral truth. Only through God can we find this truth because to recognize God’s truth is to recognize reality as it is and how God created it to be. Just as he created us in his image he created reality to be based on who he is, his essence, his nature, his perfect goodness.

 

[Bradski]

Without God we couldn’t know what is objectively good or evil

So you know what is objectively good or evil.

If that’s true, then all we need to do if we have a moral problem is ask you. If that’s not true, then can you tell us who does know?

 

[tonyrey]

So you know what is objectively good or evil.

If that’s true, then all we need to do if we have a moral problem is ask you. If that’s not true, then can you tell us who does know?

Anyone who accepts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity knows what is objectively good or evil.

 

[Bradski]

Anyone who accepts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity knows what is objectively good or evil.

But you don’t need God to accept the UDHR. Many who do are atheist or Hindu or Buddhist etc. It’s a secular document. It wouldn’t be universally accepted if it wasn’t.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

A few remarks:

1. God permits everything. Allegedly in the name of “free will”, but that is simply nonsense. No one, who cares will refrain from stopping “evil” people.
2. The UDHR says absolutely nothing about sex outside marriage, or non-procreative sex, and whole lot of other issues which are considered “evil” by some people, while they are considered normal by others.
3. Even if the rules introduced by a certain society are not absolute (and many of you keep on confusing absolute and objective) at least they try to enforce those rules. The society attempts to educate and change the mindset of the psychopaths (with questionable success, but that is due to the insufficient technology). God could do it in a heartbeat, but he just sits above the clouds and does NOT CARE.

 

[fisherman_carl]

So you know what is objectively good or evil.

If that’s true, then all we need to do if we have a moral problem is ask you. If that’s not true, then can you tell us who does know?

Apart from God I could not know for sure. The only way to know is to know God and his way. it is a journey of transformation to become more like him. This is more than just keeping the commandments of God but also transforming one’s heart to one of love and service. Even if i did not myself know the answer to every question it still would not change the fact that only with God can we have objective moral values and duties. And he has let us know in many case what is good and evil. And he has written his law on our conscience.

 

[Hicks]

So you know what is objectively good or evil.

If that’s true, then all we need to do if we have a moral problem is ask you. If that’s not true, then can you tell us who does know?

God knows what is objectively good and evil. God has given us a Church which has the ability to teach in His Name with regards to good and evil. You may consult the Catholic Church on any point of the moral law, and can rest assured that Her answer will be sufficient for you.

 

[Hicks]

Anyone who accepts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity knows what is objectively good or evil.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a document written by human beings. It certainly has its merits, but as with any merely human document it will have definite flaws and limits. Why not use natural law as our basis or the teachings of the Bible?

Considering its history, it is more than a little odd to see a Catholic using the French Revolution’s principles of liberty, equality, and fraternity as being guiding lights for our moral behavior.

 

[hu324b]

However, those laws would be only of human origin, not divine origin. This means, basically, that they are enforceable only by whoever has the most political power, or sometimes by whoever has the biggest or most guns. This also means that the laws can be changed, if another group comes along with more political power. Or bigger/more guns. I’ve seen that in my own lifetime.

It just a hypothetical question - simply pointing out all would not be permitted.

 

[Vonsalza]

But you don’t need God to accept the UDHR. Many who do are atheist or Hindu or Buddhist etc. It’s a secular document. It wouldn’t be universally accepted if it wasn’t.

It’s only “universally accepted” by those with moral under-pinnings that are not conflicted by it. I read refutations of that “universal acceptance” every time I pull up BBC news.

Furthermore, it’s historical fact that it was drafted with a heavily western paradigm construed, largely, through Judeo-Christianity. Non-western societies have critiqued it en masse; particularly our Chinese and Muslim friends.

The UDHR is only followed when the values it identifies do not conflict with those you already hold. When it does, it is dismissed. “Universally”.

Yet another example of the absolute train-wreck of atheistic morality. There simply isn’t any. About half the time they’re willing to admit it. About half the time they aren’t (like when they feebly cite the UDHR).

Yet more evidence of their absolute (and non-functioning) relativism…

 

[fisherman_carl]

A few remarks:

1. God permits everything. Allegedly in the name of “free will”, but that is simply nonsense. No one, who cares will refrain from stopping “evil” people.
2. The UDHR says absolutely nothing about sex outside marriage, or non-procreative sex, and whole lot of other issues which are considered “evil” by some people, while they are considered normal by others.
3. Even if the rules introduced by a certain society are not absolute (and many of you keep on confusing absolute and objective) at least they try to enforce those rules. The society attempts to educate and change the mindset of the psychopaths (with questionable success, but that is due to the insufficient technology). God could do it in a heartbeat, but he just sits above the clouds and does NOT CARE.

A lot of assumptions you have about God. Do not mistake God’s permissable will with his desired will. God may allow certain evils to occur for a time in the world because he has given us free will. That doesn’t mean he wants those evils to occur or doesn’t care if they do happen. And that doesn’t mean that he won’t eventually stop those people from committing evil and bringing them to justice. Because he will eventually bring everyone to justice.

Even society’s justice which you hold so high allows a whole lot of evil to occur. The laws and the police are there but still there is much crime committed. There is no way to be able to control everyone unless you took away everyone’s freedom some how. But, if God did that then people would complain that they had no freedom. Even now there are people who complain that God doesn’t give us enough freedom. In other words they want to be free to do things that God knows is bad for them. Like premarital sex for instance. They know that doing such things are wrong but they choose to do them anyways. So God gives them over to the lusts of the flesh and they become addicted to their sin.

Societies will have to answer for the injustices they have committed. Our societal justice doesn’t seem to care about unborn babies for instance. If there was no one higher than society to answer to then society could commit many such evils and never have to answer to a higher justice than some corrupt human court.

God has given us the ability to govern ourselves to a certain degree under his guidance. The criminal justice system is one such system. So God holds us responsible for how we govern ourselves and others. He didn’t set it up so that he would do everything for us. He wants us to participate in his plan too, through our free choice.

 

[dshix]

1. God permits everything. Allegedly in the name of “free will”, but that is simply nonsense. No one, who cares will refrain from stopping “evil” people.

It is not nonsense. Let’s take an example:

Let’s say that your great-great-great-great grandfather raped your great-great-great-great grandmother. That resulted in a child, and that child is your ancestor.

If it weren’t for that act of evil, you wouldn’t exist. And several hundred other people who may be good or may be bad, wouldn’t exist.

The point is that God can see the whole picture, and we cannot. We cannot judge whether it is better or worse for something to be stopped or not, because we are blind to the whole truth.

 

[Bradski]

It is not nonsense. Let’s take an example:

Let’s say that your great-great-great-great grandfather raped your great-great-great-great grandmother. That resulted in a child, and that child is your ancestor.

If it weren’t for that act of evil, you wouldn’t exist. And several hundred other people who may be good or may be bad, wouldn’t exist.

The point is that God can see the whole picture, and we cannot. We cannot judge whether it is better or worse for something to be stopped or not, because we are blind to the whole truth.

In other words, you don’t know if rape might turn out to be a good thing. Except of course that you believe that nothing evil can be done so that good may come if it.

Something of a quandary there. How do you solve it?