Without the reformation, what would our world be like?

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I am asking this provocative question: If there had been no reformation, what would the world, especially Europe and the Americas be like? Had there been no reformation, there would have been no religious dissenters (Catholic and Protestant) in England. Those dissenters would not have sought a haven in north America, and the religious freedom we all enjoy would likely not have happened. Would there have been independent states using a common document (the US Constitution) to frame governments and become a model for future governments around the world? Would a later movement break off from the Catholic Church in ways we can only speculate about?

Would anyone else care to comment on this hypothetical question?
 
I am asking this provocative question: If there had been no reformation, what would the world, especially Europe and the Americas be like? Had there been no reformation, there would have been no religious dissenters (Catholic and Protestant) in England. Those dissenters would not have sought a haven in north America, and the religious freedom we all enjoy would likely not have happened. Would there have been independent states using a common document (the US Constitution) to frame governments and become a model for future governments around the world? Would a later movement break off from the Catholic Church in ways we can only speculate about?

Would anyone else care to comment on this hypothetical question?
I suspect the unfair taxation issue had a large role to play in the US declaring independence from GB!

I don’t think the reformation created the US as you imply.

The real issue is what is the Truth, what did Jesus want us to do?

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
I am asking this provocative question: If there had been no reformation, what would the world, especially Europe and the Americas be like? Had there been no reformation, there would have been no religious dissenters (Catholic and Protestant) in England. Those dissenters would not have sought a haven in north America, and the religious freedom we all enjoy would likely not have happened. Would there have been independent states using a common document (the US Constitution) to frame governments and become a model for future governments around the world? Would a later movement break off from the Catholic Church in ways we can only speculate about?

Would anyone else care to comment on this hypothetical question?
Peace.

Adam and Eve had the right to turn on God and die but the serpant had no right to teach a lie. Another words. If you choose to worship a false god in private that is your right to choose. But you have no right what so ever to teach even a single lie. To lead even the littles one of these astray. The vary diverse nature of the protestant religion is proof by the fact itself that it is not from God.
 
I would like to point out that the US Constitution is based upon the Magna Carta, which is based upon the Rule of St. Benedict… Even without Protestantism, I would imagine that the Constitution would be perhaps still very similar, if not the same, since there probably would have been a revolution due to the taxes imposed up on colonial America.

I would like think that if there wasn’t the Protestant schism from the Church that the wide spread usage of birth control, abortion, and the breakdown of the family would have never have happened, at least not to the scale that it is currently occuring, but I’m not so sure about that, since there would still be people who don’t submit to the authority and the moral teachings of the Church.
 
If the reformation never happened?
  • Most of Europe and the Americas would still be Catholic Christian
  • Most of Europe and the Americas would still be run under an absolute monarchy
  • Separation of church and state would not exist
  • The government would help create laws requiring it’s citizens to attend mass and the such
Really, for a good indication of what life would be like without the reformation, just look at pre-lutheran Europe. It would be Monarchy, Compulsory Religion, and entanglement of church and state. (Ie: The government would make mass mandatory, the church would influence political heirs, cardinals and bishops would be very political)
 
I suspect the unfair taxation issue had a large role to play in the US declaring independence from GB!
Indeed. But English immigration to the colonies that would later form the US would not have taken place (at least not in the numbers it did) without the Reformation and the religious mess of the aftershock of it in Britain.
I don’t think the reformation created the US as you imply.
Not directly, no. But it is definitely a prerequisite for it.
The real issue is what is the Truth, what did Jesus want us to do?
We agree on this much 🙂
 
Let’s see, what did the reformation result in, or start:

Personal freedom and the freedom to follow one’s consciecne
Change in justice system
The start of women’s rights
public education
increase on representational governmen
beginning of end of fedual system

Without, most likely no: Thomas Paine, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson. Emerson, Thoreau, Ghandi, MLK,
 
If the reformation never happened?
  • Most of Europe and the Americas would still be Catholic Christian
  • Most of Europe and the Americas would still be run under an absolute monarchy
  • Separation of church and state would not exist
  • The government would help create laws requiring it’s citizens to attend mass and the such
Really, for a good indication of what life would be like without the reformation, just look at pre-lutheran Europe. It would be Monarchy, Compulsory Religion, and entanglement of church and state. (Ie: The government would make mass mandatory, the church would influence political heirs, cardinals and bishops would be very political)
Reformation was about church and doctrines, not government thus there is no guarantee that the system of government and people lives never changes, even without the reformation.

What does not change is the church and her doctrines.
 
I am asking this provocative question: If there had been no reformation, what would the world, especially Europe and the Americas be like? Had there been no reformation, there would have been no religious dissenters (Catholic and Protestant) in England. Those dissenters would not have sought a haven in north America, and the religious freedom we all enjoy would likely not have happened. Would there have been independent states using a common document (the US Constitution) to frame governments and become a model for future governments around the world? Would a later movement break off from the Catholic Church in ways we can only speculate about?

Would anyone else care to comment on this hypothetical question?
If the Reformation had not happened when it happened, there would still have been some kind of reaction against the obvious abuses that had infested the RC church at the time.
It could have been in one of these ways (or another!)

1: Leo X was not elected Bishop of Rome, and the See of Rome was instead occupied by…yeah, I don’t want to go into a name-debate, so let’s say a Reform Catholic of some kind
With one of those people in the Vatican, and not the power-hungry, money-grabbing Leo X, some of Luther’s concerns would have been dealt with. Not all at once, and some would probably not have been altered noticeably, but the initial reaction would have been a lot more pious than that of Leo, who felt his purse empty - and the Reformation would not have taken place. Karlstadt and the Radicals would probably not have gone away, but they’d have had no support from authorities, and with the peasants not believing Luther on their side in a revolt (which they did, however falsely), the peasant riot would probably not have taken place.

2: The Emperor betrayed his promise of safe passage for Luther to and from Worms.
If Luther had been executed, it would probably not have had the intended effect: To snuff out the Reformation in its infancy.
The Reformation would probably have taken a slightly less radical route, though.
By 1521, Philipp Melanchthon was already one of Luther’s close associates. And although he’d not have taken his mentor’s death (and the Emperor’s broken word) lightly, he did have less of a temper than Luther, and was also more of a realist and more willing to compromise in matters of adiaphora.

So we would probably have seen a Lutheran (if it had still come to be known by that name) church which was closer liturgically to the RC church, as well as more RC clergy joining, due to Melanchton’s better temper and more diplomatic attitude.
This could (although would not neccessarily!) have meant that the “Lutheran” church, in the view of the RC church, would have retained valid (although illicit) ordination, because Melanchton was, to my knowledge, a lot more conservative on changing for the sake of changing, than Luther was.

Who knows? Over time, when Leo X died, reunification might even have been possible…

Now, Karlstadt and his bunch would not have gone away either, but they would, at best, probably be no better or worse off than they were in the real timeline. In fact, since the RC church and the “Lutheran” was even closer than they were RL, the Radical Reformers might have found themselves even further isolated, and their movements gaining less momentum.

There are probably a lot of other possible scenarios, but I’m tired, it’s 2.60 AM, and I have classes tomorrow, so I should really get to bed. 🙂

Now, to those that say “We’d still be in darkness, mysticism and theocratic tyranny”, I say: Baloney.
The Renaissance was coming, and had been coming from the 14th century in Northern Italy. The Renaissance and the birth of humanism was more of a breeding ground for the coming liberalizations than the Reformation. The Reformation was partly a consequence of the Renaissance and of humanism.
2:
 
Protestants invented what has evolved into moral relativism. They said, interpret the Bible the way you’d like, not for what it says. Thus we have people disregarding certain aspects of the Bible in order to justify what they are doing in life. And so basically we get to the point that you can explain away anything the bible says by saying, well that’s your interpretation.

So moral relativism has gotten us to a place where we can justify the killing of a child in the womb, where politicians who do the most atrocious things can invoke the name of God in their speeches and people cheer, regardless of the atrocities they have committed. We have people like Hitler who have used their own personal interpretations of religion to justify their actions. We have things like the Salem Witch murders that are based off of a few individuals’ wacky religious beliefs. And all of these people derive their authority from that one action of Luther, whereby he disregarded the authority of the Church Our Lord established, the authority of God Himself, and placed that authority on the individual’s shoulders, where they can believe anything they wish and still think they’re going to heaven.

So then not only do we have the destructive forces of relativism and individualism, but we have an unclear way for people to follow God. So their eternal lives are at stake, in the millions.

Protestantism initiated all of the isms that are tearing western society apart!
 
It would be in some ways much better.

Instead of Martin Luther’s followers splintering off, I think that SAINT Martin Luther would have (in choosing to remain in the Church and to work for reform from within) been a great force for (wait for it) the reunification of the Catholic and Orthodox. For on seeing that St.Martin Luther was able to remain firmly with the Church, many Orthodox would have likewise been inspired to speak with the Church on their issues, then (the 16th century) and I think that both groups would have been inspired by St. Luther and would have been able to reunite.

Since the Catholic Church was responsible already for such things as universities and hospitals as well as increased opportunities for the poor and an advocate (already) for the ending of slavery and for the rights of women, those would have come about more quickly, without the agonies of years of religious civil wars and doctrinal abuses and splinterings.

A united Christendom would likewise have probably seen an end to the Muslim threat. Either the issue would have come to a head in a military way with the Muslims risking a ‘do-or-die’ centuries earlier, and the Christians with the manpower to resist and overcome, or the simple example of a united Christendom would have led to a decrease and final dying out of the Muslims in time.

The Jewish people would also have been spared the Holocaust. For a united Christendom, seeing already the miseries that would have arisen from a fractured Christendom, would likewise see that only cooperation and true Christian behavior had saved them. . .and they would thus rather than focus on ‘opposition’ of the Jews, have treated them with respect, kindness and true ‘tolerance’.

Instead of people coming to the Americas not because they wished ‘religious freedom’ but rather because they wished to impose their own personal ‘stamp’ on everybody else, we’d have had a united Christendom which (see above) would have treated the indigenous peoples in the same way they’d learned to treat each other. . .not as adversaries but as the true ‘neighbors’. The Christendom of the Americas would have been less 'de bella" and more 'de jura" (not that I am saying it was mainly, or even largely, the former. Very likely St. Martin Luther and the Virgin would be copatrons of the (united) Americas. Europe would still be a beacon of Christianity.

The Far East would (as we have seen in Japan) embraced Christianity to a much greater extent if they had seen a ‘unified Christianity’ as unity and conformity is prized by them (as well it should be.)

Africa, rather than being used for ‘chattel labor’ to foster the nationalistic fervor often a part of religious war, would have been seen as an opportunity not to get ‘bodies’ but to win souls. . .to bring to that world universities and hospitals and for us to see from Africa stewardship and resilience and humor and adaptability. . .

We could have seen this. We chose otherwise. We could still see this but it will take much greater effort now.
 
I am asking this provocative question: If there had been no reformation, what would the world, especially Europe and the Americas be like? Had there been no reformation, there would have been no religious dissenters (Catholic and Protestant) in England. Those dissenters would not have sought a haven in north America, and the religious freedom we all enjoy would likely not have happened. Would there have been independent states using a common document (the US Constitution) to frame governments and become a model for future governments around the world? Would a later movement break off from the Catholic Church in ways we can only speculate about?

Would anyone else care to comment on this hypothetical question?
Sure. People would have settled in the New World just the same because exploration and curiosity are also part of the the human dimension.
The Church recognizes freedom of conscience; therefore, I don’t think it would have stood in the way of freedom, or the framing of the Constitution which is based on the inalienable rights of human beings, given to us by our Creator, as the Declaration of Independence declares.
However, I think that the movements of secularism would have come about just the same and would have still been a threat to the Faith. We still would have had modernism in all of its insidious forms; we just wouldn’t have had a rupture in Faith beliefs as we had with the Reformation.
 
I am asking this provocative question: If there had been no reformation, what would the world, especially Europe and the Americas be like? Had there been no reformation, there would have been no religious dissenters (Catholic and Protestant) in England. Those dissenters would not have sought a haven in north America, and the religious freedom we all enjoy would likely not have happened. Would there have been independent states using a common document (the US Constitution) to frame governments and become a model for future governments around the world? Would a later movement break off from the Catholic Church in ways we can only speculate about?

Would anyone else care to comment on this hypothetical question?
Without the reformation, the RCC leaders would not realized our own mistakes.
 
Protestantism initiated all of the isms that are tearing western society apart!
Let me translate what you’re saying for everyone else:
“blah blah blah blah changing subject blah blah blah blah trolling blah blah blah strawman blah blah blah…”
:rolleyes:
 
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