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Cathryn
Guest
From the Epistle reading for this last Sunday:
Any thoughts?
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Leopard
Guest
Sounds like a recipe for a happy family, if everyone lived their roles as God intends.
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DJgang
Guest
The key word here is … IF
The Priest where I attended Mass went on to talk about Peace in the family requires Obedience, which would be in the means of this passage.
Another thought he had:
Masculinity without gentleness, is abuse. (I’ve seen this in marriages, thus ending in divorce, when the woman is subordinate, however, the man has no gentleness)
My notes on the Homily are in the car (Yes, still can’t resist taking notes in church, flashback to Protestant days!)
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benedictgal
Guest
In a previous post I indicated that the father is the head of his family (household) much as Christ is the Head of his Body (and spouse) the Church. Therefore, while husbands and wives make joint decisions regarding the family, it is ultimately the husband, as head of the family, who takes on the final responsibility (at least that is how it is at home).
This line also seems to mirror the ordinary life of the Holy Family. God chose to be born into a family. The Author of Life, who with one line uttered the words of creation, chose to be subordinate to his creatures (the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph), allowing them to teach Him how to be human. If God, who is the Amighty and Eternal, submitted Himself to the authority of two mortals, why should we question the line stating that “wives should be submissive to their husbands”? Evidently, Mary had no problems with Joseph’s role in the household.
Jesus perfectly obeyed his Mother and his foster father in all things. After the 12-year-old’s adventure into Jerusalem, He humbly submitted Himself to the parental authority of Mary and Joseph.
We need to look at the deeper meaning of things and not be so quick to place everything into politically correct compartments. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is something that is beyond our ordinary lives. It is the extraordinary gift that the Father gives us through His Son, Jesus Christ. We shouldn’t have to tinker with things simply because a couple of phrases in the readings give our particular sensitivities a rash.
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DJgang
Guest
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Seatuck
Guest
Of course they didn’t read that part at my parish. Can’t offend the women or give the men the wrong idea.
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dulcissima
Guest
I think that this is the way that it should be, and the only thing that prevents us from living to this ideal is not being obedient to God first, starting from before we even marry. Having previously attempted marriage with someone who had no intetion of living by God’s rules, I can say that when you marry someone you need to be keeping this all in mind. I think if the man you are considering marrying is not someone that you can be subordinate to, then you shouldn’t be marrying him.
On a somewhat humorous note, my priest traditionally calls it “Black and Blue Sunday” because as that epistle is being read he sees wives elbowing their husbands, husbands elbowing their wives, and children elbowing their parents.
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benedictgal
Guest
The first “we” means all of us. The second “we” means those of us (bishops, priests, deacons, liturgists, lectors, etc) who have a hand in planning Masses. This second “we” is the group that does the most damage when it decides to “tinker” with the liturgy and carve it to their collective liking.
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Just_1_hr_a_wk
Guest
Or to keep some from going off on tangents and playing dumb regarding the required part(s).Of course they didn’t read that part at my parish. Can’t offend the women or give the men the wrong idea.
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DJgang
Guest
Really! What gives someone the right to tinker with the liturgy?
This was the Epsitle for Sunday. Now, I’m really confused. Please don’t tell me that this is happening in the Church. I’m leaving one of the most liberal churches around (TEC, ya know, gay bishop and all!)…
Oh, now I’m concerned.
This scripture fitted really well with the Feast of the Holy Family…don’t you think.
Another thing my Priest said…Civilization depends on the Catholic Response to the Family.
Wow … how’s that for telling us to live according to this scripture?
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Cathryn
Guest
I noticed that when the Angel wanted the Holy Family to go to Egypt to be safe from Herod, he didn’t go to both Joseph and Mary and give them both the plan. The angel didn’t treat them as having equal rank. He told Joseph to take her and the baby. Mary had already given her consent to God’s will when she spoke with the Angel Gabriel. In God’s plan the wife is subordinate in rank, but equal in human dignity.
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benedictgal
Guest
There are some folks who, unfortunately, take it upon themselves to “get creative” with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Some examples include priests changing the words of the consecration and liturgists having panic attacks whenever the word “Father” is used (that’s why they would rather refer to God as Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifyer, so that they won’t have to say, Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Unfortunately, this trend has been going on for quite some time in this country.
Thank God, however, that we have a strong Holy Father who is putting his red shoe-clad foot down.
Don’t be too concerned if you haven’t witnessed any of it. Consider yourself blessed. Just latch on to a good, orthodox parish that has a solid, reverent priest who won’t tolerate the “creativity”.
If you want to read the Holy Father’s thoughts on the Liturgy, get hold of “Spirit of the Liturgy”, “Feast of Faith” and “A New Song for the Lord”. This will give you a blue print and road map as to where Pope Benedict is heading towards when it comes to the Mass.
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Cathryn
Guest
I 2nd your thought about being careful who we marry and choose to be our spouse and father of our children. I heard a few groans from folks around me in Church this last Sunday.
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DJgang
Guest
Oh, yes, I thought the same.
Don’t you just love the readings, how they all fit together.
Something I sincerely do NOT miss from my Protestant days.
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ChristIsTheWay
Guest
This is an interesting passage and there are several more passages in Scripture that are almost identical to it. Reading all these passages together gives me the impression of a mutual submission. We are all to love and submit to one another as we do Christ. I think Paul explains this rather well. Wives are to submit to their husbands as they would Christ. I think that means to love him and be loyal to him. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves us, by caring for them and sacrificing for them. I find that last part especially interesting. In the ancient world, marriage wasn’t really based on love. By calling on husbands to love their wives, I think that turned the misogyny of the ancient world upside down.
I am curious though, how does all this establish the wife as being of a lower rank?
I am curious though, how does all this establish the wife as being of a lower rank?
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Cathryn
Guest
It’s not mutual submission. The husband is the head of the wife as Christ also is the head of the Church. He is over her, as Christ is the Church. The husband represents Christ, and wife represents the Church.
Holy Scripture through St. Paul says:
- Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26. so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27. that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29. for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30. because we are members of His body. 31. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
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ChristIsTheWay
Guest
Ephesians 5:21 tells us to submit to another. Just because we do so in different manner based on gender does not mean our submission is not mutual or that women are of an inferior or secondary rank. You still have not answered my question about why women are supposedly of inferior or secondary rank because the role of men and women differ.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
I say move back a verse where it says for spouses to “submit to one another”, basically there is a submission 100 percent form both spouses, not a one way street.
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Cathryn
Guest
That is the definition of “subordinate”. St. Paul explains as I posted that husbands are over, or head, of their wives. Wives are not the head of or over their husbands. Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper to the Lord. Husbands have their role as head of the family as our Lord is head of His Church. The head and the body don’t have the same rank. Wives are not inferior, they are of equal human dignity.
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ChristIsTheWay
Guest
Yes, that is the modern definition and context of the English word. However, Paul didn’t write this in modern English, with our contexts in mind. I think much can be said of trying to understand this in the ancient language and contexts in which it was written. I still don’t think you’ve made your case that wives are of a secondary rank. My reading of Scripture tells me that we are supposed to submit to another, as we do to Christ. Paul stated this in Ephesians. I could be wrong. I believe only the Church has the authority to definitely state what Scripture teaches.
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