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Mark1970
Guest
Has anybody watch the BBC TV series Wolf Hall? What did you think of it, apart from the obvious anti-Catholic bias?
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KevinAK
Guest
Haven’t seen the series yet. Waiting for the PBS screening starting April 5.
I am reading the novel though. The anti catholic bias isn’t really that strong so far.
I am reading the novel though. The anti catholic bias isn’t really that strong so far.
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Mintaka
Guest
The problem isn’t so much anti-Catholicism, as it is whitewashing the character of one of England’s most evil, repressive, nasty people ever.
It’s like writing a novel all about how Hitler and Goebbels and Himmler were nice to kids they knew, without mentioning that little matter of killing and torturing millions of people, or what happened to the close relatives of the kids, or how the kids were later forced to commit suicide down in the bunker.
I mean, it could be worse. It could be whitewashing Topcliffe by talking about how he was really nice to his cook, without mentioning all the cells and torture chambers in his murder house, or all the brutal ways he captured people, or dealing in any way with the whole “psychopath given free rein by the queen and her government” thing. But it’s a lot like that.
It’s like writing a novel all about how Hitler and Goebbels and Himmler were nice to kids they knew, without mentioning that little matter of killing and torturing millions of people, or what happened to the close relatives of the kids, or how the kids were later forced to commit suicide down in the bunker.
I mean, it could be worse. It could be whitewashing Topcliffe by talking about how he was really nice to his cook, without mentioning all the cells and torture chambers in his murder house, or all the brutal ways he captured people, or dealing in any way with the whole “psychopath given free rein by the queen and her government” thing. But it’s a lot like that.
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Mark1970
Guest
I’ve been watching it on the BBC, the one thing that came across was the way they portrayed Thomas More. Some of the English Catholic bishops have complained about the way he was presented, and there have been comments about “historical revisionism”. The series has now finished in the UK, the DVD is on sale and it has been rated as a 15.
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jinglebelle
Guest
just watch it without any preconceptions.it is a “tour de force” mark rylance as Crumwell is effortless this is matchless
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Mark1970
Guest
Personally, I think that as long as you accept it as a fictionalised version of historical events, there isn’t a problem with it historically. As Cromwell is being presented as the central character and “hero” it’s only to be expected that he will be presented in a good light, and his opponents (uncluding Thomas More) possibly less so.
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Nixbits
Guest
I watched the series and thoroughly enjoyed it. I agree with Mark1970 that it should be viewed as a fictionalised version of historical events. However, I don’t think that it showed Thomas Cromwell in a wholly ‘good light’. Certainly as the series progresses it shows more of his ruthlessness and ambition. I would say, rather, that it shows the events from Cromwell’s perspective, both the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’.
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jinglebelle
Guest
no,he isn,t being portrayed as a “hero”. just a man trapped in circumstances. perhaps you should all wait for endless plays with perfect catholics doing perfect things. of course its fiction
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Mark1970
Guest
I’m not sure how far you can take the argument about him being “trapped in circumstances”. His origins are so ambiguous we know very little about his early life except that he was “low-born” and possibly came from the Putney area of London, yet he rose to be one of the most powerful men in the country at the time. Of course there is the element of needing powerful sponsors but his own efforts probably played some part as well, so I doubt that his actions were purely the result of being trapped by his circumstances. For one thing he may have been very skilled in making himself useful to his superiors - he certainly did so for Hery VIII with the dissolution of the monasteries. With respect to e.g. his part in the downfall, of Anne Boleyn, there is no officially accepted version of how much of that was genuine and how much was “engineered” by her opponents - one of those potentially being Thomas Cromwell. Of course he may have been doing the King’s bidding but equally there may have been an element of him finding the evidence on his own accord which was later used by himself and others to bring her down. And of course we all realise that there’s no such thing as “perfect Catholics doing perfect things”, to expect to see a media presentation of this would be foolish.
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ladysherlockian
Guest
I have seen all episodes and did not find any strong anti-Catholic bias, perhaps if I found it too disturbing I would not continue to watch the series. I do not think the portrayal of More is anti-Catholic, to some extent it verges on the boundary, but never really crosses it - I have not read the books, so I am speaking only about the series, maybe it is worse in the book. He may be considered a bit ruthless but we must remember that he is shown from Cromwell’s POV and filtered through Crowmell’s consciousness so rather than being a true version of what he was really like, it is rather how Cromwell perceived him. Still, More is presented as unwavering in his beliefs in contrast to the bendable Cromwell. What I also liked was that there are no erotic scenes in the series, and this is actually why I started watching it, after reading in a review that there are no depiction of sex in this series. I am sick of gratuitous sexual scenes inserted even into war dramas.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
I read Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies so I am looking forward to the show on PBS in April.
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jinglebelle
Guest
well certainly the stuarts were drunkard and degenerates and in bred,perhaps you should imagine life at court,limited choices.I wasnt discussing it as a religious or moral context but as purely probably the best thing the bbc will churn out in 2015.watch it,dont watch it who cares.We here ,of course will continue to “enjoy” the endless american/canadian,violent garbage,that passes as entertainment.Feel free to watch and huff and piously puff.
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Mark1970
Guest
Can’t beat a bit of pious huffing and puffing, lol
that’s what CAF’s for!
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jinglebelle
Guest
get a life oh Bolton perhaps not
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Luvz2travel
Guest
Looking forward to it but you have to keep in mind the subject matter aside from that the brits to have a very anticatholic view.
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jinglebelle
Guest
why?
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Cailte
Guest
I have to say I disagree. I watched it and found it very anti-Catholic in a not so subtle way. There are conversations between Cromwell and others which depict the Reformation as a much needed event becasue of the ‘corruption’ in the Catholic church. Comments about the monasteries being corrupt and harbouring all kinds of sexual deviancy and young monks wanting to escape this life and to get out etc. etc. It was awful - I did stop watching.
Thomas More is especially played as a sour faced man full of hypocrisy and with blood on his hands. None of which is historically accurate. Historians came out against this egregious depiction and the author’s [Hilary Mantel] well known hated for the Catholic Church.
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Cailte
Guest
The Brits have a long history of being anti-Catholic going back to the Reformation. Historically they depict Catholics in a bad light and the Reformation in a good light i.e ‘bad’ Queen Mary and ‘good’ Queen Elizabeth is one typical example. . And the BBC has also got a reputation of being anti-Catholic - in news reports especially where the recent scandals were loudly highlighted. They produced many so called ‘documentaries’ which showed the Catholic Church as being pure evil and full of pedophile priests.
They were caught out however when many of their own staff members going back to the 1960s - some of them actually knighted but the Queen - were accused publicly of being pedophiles. That was played down by them even for a while covered up.
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rose_kelly
Guest
Well the author of Wolf Hall, Dame Hilary Mantel, is highly critical of Catholicism and Christianity in general. She’s a lapsed Catholic turned atheist
That doesn’t mean I entirely dismiss all her writings, she has some justification for her criticism of how the powerful and mighty behaved in that period. But if I watch the series I will keep in mind that they are historical novels based on her own imagined analysis of those characters she has read about in history books.
That doesn’t mean I entirely dismiss all her writings, she has some justification for her criticism of how the powerful and mighty behaved in that period. But if I watch the series I will keep in mind that they are historical novels based on her own imagined analysis of those characters she has read about in history books.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
Thank you for the info. I had read she was Catholic. I did not know if she was lapsed turned atheist. I wasn’t even sure if she was male or female.
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