Woman clothed with the Sun

[spauline]

I would say the utlimate and most important meaning of the Woman is the Church because that is the primary function of apocalyptic data. That is, Fundamentalists see the woman as literal Israel at the very end of the world, and preterists see it as Mary at the beginning of Church history. But neither futurism nor preterism really address the ultimate apocalyptic questions. The ultimate apocalyptic questions have little to do with temporal details of either Early Church history or late Church history. Ultimately, the questions rather involve the contemplating the meaning and purpose of the Redemption of all humanity, and, when speaking of this historical process, obviously the Church itself, as the ultimate fulfillment of the People of God, is the central issue. hence, I would say Tom is really the right one here. Mary is a secondary meaning. The Church is the primary meaning, IMHO ( ).

 

[Tom317]

I would say the utlimate and most important meaning of the Woman is the Church because that is the primary function of apocalyptic data. That is, Fundamentalists see the woman as literal Israel at the very end of the world, and preterists see it as Mary at the beginning of Church history. But neither futurism nor preterism really address the ultimate apocalyptic questions. The ultimate apocalyptic questions have little to do with petty details of either Early Church history or late Church history. Ultimately, the questions rather involve the contemplating the meaning and purpose of the Redemption of all humanity, and, when speaking of this historical process, obviously the Church itself, as the ultimate fulfillment of the People of God, is the central issue. hence, I would say Tom is really the right one here. Mary is a secondary meaning. The Church is the primary meaning, IMHO ( ).

Happy Easter!

 

[spauline]

Happy Easter!

Thank you, Tom! And same to you!

 

[Angainor]

Angainor:

This is something I have wondered about. I may be showing my ignorance.

“Clothed with the Sun” sounds like a poetic euphemism, as in sunlight is her clothing, as in sunlight is her only

clothing, as in (to avoid all misunderstanding) she has no clothing on.

I feel dumb bringing this up because I don’t know if that is just obvious to everyone or what.:blush:My first thought on “clothed with the Sun” is that she is “wrapped in the Light of Christ”.

It is? I wouldn’t think anyone would have this as their first thought unless they were predisposed to think of the sun as some sort of holy object. John the Revelator may have had such predispositions, but I doubt it.

To me, the sun is a giant fiery gas-ball. I know the Pope has an obelisk on his front porch, and the Jesuits have a big sunball on their seal, but in this day and age, isn’t it a little… primitive to immediately think of “the light of Christ” when you hear “the sun”?

I still think “clothed with the sun” is pretty obviously an artful way of saying “unclothed,” like the pre-fall Eve.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

When was Mary first refered to as the “Woman clothed with the Sun” in Revelation 12?

Was it a Church Father or is it a more recent development?

Blessings,
Subrosa

Some Catholic theologians suggest the “Woman Clothed With the Sun” is really the Church. The 12 stars are the symbol of the apostles. Since the Church is the Bride of Christ the feminine gender fits very well.

She is travailing in birth, etc. is suggested that the Church is going through a most trying time in naming a pope. Also, the passage says that the Woman will be given refuge for a time…this is thought to mean the Church will go “underground” in a sort of way.

Something to ponder, IMO.

 

[spauline]

Some Catholic theologians suggest the “Woman Clothed With the Sun” is really the Church. The 12 stars are the symbol of the apostles. Since the Church is the Bride of Christ the feminine gender fits very well.

She is travailing in birth, etc. is suggested that the Church is going through a most trying time in naming a pope. Also, the passage says that the Woman will be given refuge for a time…this is thought to mean the Church will go “underground” in a sort of way.

Something to ponder, IMO.

but that would be futurism, which is less important. Far greater meaning is to see the scenes of the woman and then the dragon as an image of the greater spiritual ages of the Church across the whole of her history.

 

[BeyondDoubt]

I don’t know who first referred to the Woman of Revelation as mary, but I think Fatima clinches it, don’t you?

I used to be SO pro-Fatima, for years and years and years…

…until I discovered that the Church (in particular Canon Formiago who was in charge of the inquiry) got the children to change their stories about the appearance of the Lady.

They originally said she wore a short dress that stopped at the knees. This bothered Canon Formiago who couldn’t believe that Our Lady would appear in immodest dress. So with a little pressure on the children he got them to say things like ‘the dress seemed a little longer’ in later accounts of what they saw.

From the beginning of the promulgation of the cult of Our Lady of fatima you NEVER see a statue of Our Lady of Fatima with a short dress, you NEVER hear about it in a Catholic pro-Fatima book.

It took some Portuguese UFO researchers (yes really) to actually dig throught the archives at the Sanctuary at Fatima to find the records of the original interviews between Canon Formiago and the children to unearth these descriptions.

Note: (I don’t agree with the UFO researchers conclusions, however the evidence they present for the childrens interviews is solid).

So these days I have Fatima filed under “very interesting but what really happened there”?

You can’t trust the Church version.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

All of the above is nothing but HEARSAY and probably much worse: PURE FICTION.

Not a single word of this is believable.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

but that would be futurism, which is less important. Far greater meaning is to see the scenes of the woman and then the dragon as an image of the greater spiritual ages of the Church across the whole of her history.

The “Woman Clothed With the Sun” is open to interpretation. Rather than “futurism” it could very well be prophesy.

The Apocalypse is a conundrum for all of us.

 

[BeyondDoubt]

All of the above is nothing but HEARSAY and probably much worse: PURE FICTION.

Not a single word of this is believable.

I presume you are refering to my Fatima post.

You will find that none of it is fiction.

Did you google ‘Fatima’ and ‘short dress’?

These are Canon Formiago’s own words…

---

In the Documentação Crítica de Fátima, Doc. 2, pp. 11–12 Cónego Formigão, who also participated in the inquiries, said:

"Jacinta declares that Our Lady’s dress goes down only to her knees. Our Lady can only appear dressed, obviously, in the most decent and modest way. The dress would have to come down to her feet. Any other way constitutes the most serious obstacle to the supernaturalism of the apparition and makes us think that it is a mystification prepared by the Spirit of Darkness. But how can we explain the belief of so many thousands of people, their living faith and burning piety, the modesty and the composure they show in all their acts, the silence and behavior of the crowd, the numerous and astonishing conversions caused by the events, the appearance of extraordinary signs in the sky and on the earth, verified by thousands of witnesses? How can we explain, I repeat, all these facts and conciliate them with divine providence and the laws that rule the supernatural world, above all after the establishment of Christianity, if the Demon is the cause of such events? (Documentação, Doc. 7, pp. 66–67, cited in Armada and Fernandes, p. 190)​

Canon Formiago chose to suppress the short dress description. Canon Formiago was a witness to the last two apparations, he was Lucia’s first spiritual director and he led the official church enquiry.

What else happened that he didn’t like?

You can’t trust the official church version of Fatima.

Why else was Lucia locked away all her life!

 

[spauline]

The “Woman Clothed With the Sun” is open to interpretation. Rather than “futurism” it could very well be prophesy.

The Apocalypse is a conundrum for all of us.

well, yeah, i should say, “in my opinion”, admittedly.

but also, spiritual historicism is prophecy, just spread over a greater area.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

I presume you are refering to my Fatima post.

You will find that none of it is fiction.

Did you google ‘Fatima’ and ‘short dress’?

These are Canon Formiago’s own words…

---

In the Documentação Crítica de Fátima, Doc. 2, pp. 11–12 Cónego Formigão, who also participated in the inquiries, said:

"Jacinta declares that Our Lady’s dress goes down only to her knees. Our Lady can only appear dressed, obviously, in the most decent and modest way. The dress would have to come down to her feet. Any other way constitutes the most serious obstacle to the supernaturalism of the apparition and makes us think that it is a mystification prepared by the Spirit of Darkness. But how can we explain the belief of so many thousands of people, their living faith and burning piety, the modesty and the composure they show in all their acts, the silence and behavior of the crowd, the numerous and astonishing conversions caused by the events, the appearance of extraordinary signs in the sky and on the earth, verified by thousands of witnesses? How can we explain, I repeat, all these facts and conciliate them with divine providence and the laws that rule the supernatural world, above all after the establishment of Christianity, if the Demon is the cause of such events? (Documentação, Doc. 7, pp. 66–67, cited in Armada and Fernandes, p. 190)​

Canon Formiago chose to suppress the short dress description. Canon Formiago was a witness to the last two apparations, he was Lucia’s first spiritual director and he led the official church enquiry.

What else happened that he didn’t like?

You can’t trust the official church version of Fatima.

Why else was Lucia locked away all her life!

And from here it’s a short hop, skip and jump away from “You can’t trust the Church, period.”

Fatima is an apparition worthy of belief, but it is not required to believe in it. And the message of repentance and sacrifice espoused by the Lady of Fatima is still in line with what Jesus taught, so believe if you will, don’t if you don’t. But if you can’t trust the “official church version of Fatima”, what will you trust?

 

[BeyondDoubt]

Ok someone deleted my post about Fatima and the short dress.

Hmm.

 

[NotWorthy]

It is? I wouldn’t think anyone would have this as their first thought unless they were predisposed to think of the sun as some sort of holy object. John the Revelator may have had such predispositions, but I doubt it.

To me, the sun is a giant fiery gas-ball. I know the Pope has an obelisk on his front porch, and the Jesuits have a big sunball on their seal, but in this day and age, isn’t it a little… primitive to immediately think of “the light of Christ” when you hear “the sun”?

I still think “clothed with the sun” is pretty obviously an artful way of saying “unclothed,” like the pre-fall Eve.

No, I just feel that Christ is the Light of the World. What lights are physical world? The Sun.

So the sun could easily be a physical representation of the spiritual light of my world - Christ.

But again, that’s just my thinking.

I haven’t been worshipping the sun since… well, never.

 

[solitaryblue]

There is a famous catholic shrine in Vailankanni, India, where there is a statue of Our Lady of Good Health Vailakanni. Mary is shown holding the Child Jesus and whats more, she is clothed in a golden sari, standing on a moon and wearing a crown of twelve stars.

Here are web sites with some pictures
Our Lady of Good Health Vailankanni:
vailankannichurch.org/

Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, Washington DC:
nationalshrine.com/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=etITK6OTG&b=309286&ct=160559

Some pictures of the basilica and the statue of Our Lady of Good Health Vailankanni:
vailankannidevotees.org/vdo/23701.html

I hope i’ve helped.