Woman forced to marry father-in-law

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One, this is something Munawar wrote that I copy and paste
Two, This is what is to happen hypothetically in an Islamic land, and you are correct, there are no real Islamic lands so it can’t be carried out.
Three, if you re-read the post you will see that it states that you cannot really stone a person for adultery because of all the rules. People who are stoning adulteries have crossed the line of their religion.
This was meant as a learning experience for those of you who believe what extremists do id correct Islam. This post shows that even thought they say they are doing Islamic things, in reality they are not.

wa salam
 
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fatuma:
One, this is something Munawar wrote that I copy and paste
Two, This is what is to happen hypothetically in an Islamic land, and you are correct, there are no real Islamic lands so it can’t be carried out.
Three, if you re-read the post you will see that it states that you cannot really stone a person for adultery because of all the rules. People who are stoning adulteries have crossed the line of their religion.
This was meant as a learning experience for those of you who believe what extremists do id correct Islam. This post shows that even thought they say they are doing Islamic things, in reality they are not.

wa salam
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I did not state that there are no Islamic lands. That is your statement. I believe there ARE Islamic lands.

I re-read the post and do not see where you cannot stone a person. Didn’t Mohammed stone that woman?

Tell me, is stoning in the Qur’an?
 
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iamrefreshed:
Tell me, is stoning in the Qur’an?
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it used to be. then the verse’s recitation got abrogated by Allah and it was removed from the text. this is proven by authentic hadeeths, which also state that the ruling remained even though the verse did not.
 
This is an extreme case, where the woman knew she committed a sin, and she wanted to reach her lord sinless. When she first came to the prophet telling him she sinned, (has sex out side of marriage and was pregnant) he told her to go way and have the baby. He told no one and she had the perfect opportunity to escapes, but she came back 9 months later to have her punishment. The prophet (saw) then told her to breastfeed the child for two year and to basically go way. He still told no one, so her sin was between the two of them and nobody had to find out. Two years later, the woman came back again to seek out her punishment because she wanted to be cleansed before she meant her Lord. When she came to the prophet (saw) he ignored her and tried to convince her to change her mind but she still wanted her punishment.
Now you need to understand that this woman was special, nobody else in their right mind would come back repeatedly for punishment, if this is the way that you handle someone who wants to be punished how do you think we should handle someone who doesn’t want to be punished?
And then when the stoning began and she escaped and ran way from pain the prophet(saw) asked her if she wanted to take back her statement and he would have let her but she still wanted the punishment and it was continued.
*If you examine the above, you’ll see that Islam is not really concerned with the private affairs of individuals. If people commit adultery in their homes, in private, go ahead, Allah will deal with those people. *

wa salam
 
In the name of Allah

Well said sister Fatuma, May Allah bless you with more strength…
 
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RyanL:
You don’t understand! A couple of centuries ago 9 was completely mature! If you go back a couple thousand years, 2 was the customary matrimonial age! *Four centuries before that, little girls were being impregnated while still in their mothers’ wombs! *It’s your silly “Western Culture” that’s making this seem strange…:whacky:
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How can anyone be mature at 9 years of age! Two year olds are ready for marriage??? But the one I’ve highlighted is the most bizarre of all! How can that be?

You may call our Western culture silly, but I can’t believe you can be so gullible as to accept all that!:bigyikes:
 
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fatuma:
This is an extreme case, where the woman knew she committed a sin, and she wanted to reach her lord sinless. When she first came to the prophet telling him she sinned, (has sex out side of marriage and was pregnant) he told her to go way and have the baby. He told no one and she had the perfect opportunity to escapes, but she came back 9 months later to have her punishment. The prophet (saw) then told her to breastfeed the child for two year and to basically go way. He still told no one, so her sin was between the two of them and nobody had to find out. Two years later, the woman came back again to seek out her punishment because she wanted to be cleansed before she meant her Lord. When she came to the prophet (saw) he ignored her and tried to convince her to change her mind but she still wanted her punishment.
Now you need to understand that this woman was special, nobody else in their right mind would come back repeatedly for punishment, if this is the way that you handle someone who wants to be punished how do you think we should handle someone who doesn’t want to be punished?
And then when the stoning began and she escaped and ran way from pain the prophet(saw) asked her if she wanted to take back her statement and he would have let her but she still wanted the punishment and it was continued.
*If you examine the above, you’ll see that Islam is not really concerned with the private affairs of individuals. If people commit adultery in their homes, in private, go ahead, Allah will deal with those people. *

wa salam
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Repeating the statement does not help Fatuma. So Mohammed did stone this woman? Yes?
 
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fatuma:
This is an extreme case, where the woman knew she committed a sin, and she wanted to reach her lord sinless. When she first came to the prophet telling him she sinned, (has sex out side of marriage and was pregnant) he told her to go way and have the baby. He told no one and she had the perfect opportunity to escapes, but she came back 9 months later to have her punishment. The prophet (saw) then told her to breastfeed the child for two year and to basically go way. He still told no one, so her sin was between the two of them and nobody had to find out. Two years later, the woman came back again to seek out her punishment because she wanted to be cleansed before she meant her Lord. When she came to the prophet (saw) he ignored her and tried to convince her to change her mind but she still wanted her punishment.
Now you need to understand that this woman was special, nobody else in their right mind would come back repeatedly for punishment, if this is the way that you handle someone who wants to be punished how do you think we should handle someone who doesn’t want to be punished?
And then when the stoning began and she escaped and ran way from pain the prophet(saw) asked her if she wanted to take back her statement and he would have let her but she still wanted the punishment and it was continued.
*If you examine the above, you’ll see that Islam is not really concerned with the private affairs of individuals. If people commit adultery in their homes, in private, go ahead, Allah will deal with those people. *

wa salam
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Can we assist people in their death, then? If you asked me to kill you and I did, would I then not be committing murder?

Regardless of the circumstances, I would argue that killing someone who desired it is wrong. You act against human life either way and you intend their death. That to me is murder.
 
Ok
SIN: MURDER
SIN: SUICIDE
SIN: ASSITED SUCIDE
SIN: ABORTION

**Islam is not really concerned with the private affairs of individuals. If people commit adultery in their homes, in private, go ahead, Allah will deal with those people.

But it’s when you enter the social sphere the punishment must be carried out. When it becomes aparrent to the people in society that adultery has occurred, this is when the capital punishment happens.

Capital Punishment is a bad word. It is not punishment. This is social justice, and is simply the amputation of a bad segment of society. You dont punish a cancer in your leg, you remove it. And public adultery is just that. **

wa salam
 
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r.gonzales:
thanks for the tip… :rolleyes: .

how’s it feel? what? is it supposed to hurt or am i supposed to feel insulted or something?

gladly. if the girl has been raised to be an upright and responsible individual and her parents readied her for parenthood and family responsibilites, and she has begun to mentstruate, then yes, she’s ready. from what i know of personal accounts, girls marrying and having children at young ages is something quite normal in places like africa.

of course i looked at the site, otherwise i wouldn’t have posted its url.

as for what it shows, it lists that puberty begins internally anywhere from 8-11 yrs old. outward signs begin to appear between 8-14 yrs of age. and that some girls begin menstrual periods late in the 3rd stage, which is from 9-15. that isn’t to say that they might get it sooner. in fact, there was a news article of a 9 yr old giving birth somewhere in asia - so girls reaching this stage at that young of an age is not impossible.
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It seems to me that you are trying to rationally justify something your heart tells you is unethical. You are saying that it is okay to have sex with a nine year old if she is mature, but not okay if she is not mature. That says to me you have trouble with the idea of having sex with a nine year old CHILD (and rightly so).

It sounds to me like an internal struggle. Let’s rationalize something that is unethical. Tell me, if you had a child that was nine years old, would you allow a man to have sex with her? Or, would you send a nine year old out on her own into the world without any economic help? If she’s not mature enough to survive on her own, she is not mature enough to have sex with a man 40-50 years her senior. Do you not find this idea disgusting? A middle aged man with a child? My heart tells me that is wrong, and I believe yours does too (and hence, the rationalizing process of something that is truly despicable.)
 
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fatuma:
Ok
SIN: MURDER
SIN: SUICIDE
SIN: ASSITED SUCIDE
SIN: ABORTION

**Islam is not really concerned with the private affairs of individuals. If people commit adultery in their homes, in private, go ahead, Allah will deal with those people. **

**But it’s when you enter the social sphere the punishment must be carried out. When it becomes aparrent to the people in society that adultery has occurred, this is when the capital punishment happens. **

**Capital Punishment is a bad word. It is not punishment. This is social justice, and is simply the amputation of a bad segment of society. You dont punish a cancer in your leg, you remove it. And public adultery is just that. **

wa salam
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I’m trying to understand this Fatuma. Are you saying “don’t ask, don’t tell” applies to adultery?

Does Allah want humans to stone adulterers or are humans doing it for their own benefit to society?
 
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fatuma:
Ok
SIN: MURDER
SIN: SUICIDE
SIN: ASSITED SUCIDE
SIN: ABORTION

**Islam is not really concerned with the private affairs of individuals. If people commit adultery in their homes, in private, go ahead, Allah will deal with those people. **

**But it’s when you enter the social sphere the punishment must be carried out. When it becomes aparrent to the people in society that adultery has occurred, this is when the capital punishment happens. **

**Capital Punishment is a bad word. It is not punishment. This is social justice, and is simply the amputation of a bad segment of society. You dont punish a cancer in your leg, you remove it. And public adultery is just that. **

wa salam
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State sanctioned murder is not murder because society is aware of someones misdeeds?

I understand incarceration, and capital punishment as a means to deter further crimes. For instance, if you have a serial murderer that the only means you have to keep him from killing again is to have him killed, then so be it.

However, in the case of adultery, where the woman confesses, I do not see her as a threat to society. She actually feels indebted for her misdeeds. Killing her is the equivalent of killing an innocent person. That to me is still murder.

Why must punishment be carried out if people become aware of it? I don’t understand the distinction between public awareness and privacy? I think what you are trying to get at is that Islam is reluctant to stone people, but that still doesn’t justify the act of stoning when the crime becomes “public?” I think you, in your heart, realize the punishment is extreme and are trying to rationalize it. In the end, though, stoning someone for adultery is a crime as well. (I realize the Jews had the same precepts under the Levitical law, but thanks to fuller revelation in Christ, we know human dignity and forgiveness trump the violation of that human dignity.)

Why must someone be killed for succumbing to human weakness? Afterall, aren’t we all subject to that weakness? (As Christ says, “those without sin may cast the first stone.”)
 
Think very very hard about free sex and the state society is in right now because of it. The family is the backbone of society, when the family goes, society goes with it. This is in order to keep people from destroying their families, homes, and their society.

wa salam

ps. if you don’t believe this, then it is ok. You have your belief and I have mine.
 
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fatuma:
Think very very hard about free sex and the state society is in right now because of it. The family is the backbone of society, when the family goes, society goes with it. This is in order to keep people from destroying their families, homes, and their society.

wa salam

ps. if you don’t believe this, then it is ok. You have your belief and I have mine.
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Fatima,

I understand your convictions about the state of the family, as I feel the same way. However, stoning someone to death for adultery is still extreme.

As a Muslim, you endorse the idea of polygamy, right? If you are concerned about the family, then I would also be critical of polygamy, as it is a prescription for the domination of women.

Tell me, which is a worse crime, murder or adultery? Also, I agree the family must be protected, but it’s a bit Machiavellian to suggest we kill those who commit such crimes.

We should outlaw contraception and get rid of no fault divorce laws to save the family, but we shouldn’t kill those who succumb to human weakness, because we are all subject to it.
 
Ok, you don’t really seem to get what I am saying. The punishment for adultery is stoning. Are you with me so far? What I wrote below is explaining under what circumstances stoning is allowed. Are you still there? I also posted an example of what to do with someone who wants to be stoned because she want her sins erased when she meet her Lord. Did you read the way the prophet (saw) dealt with her? Are you still there because this is the important part? If somebody wanted to stone somebody for adultery, they would have to follow the rules stated below. When these rules are followed, it insures that you can never stone somebody for adultery. It’s close to impossible. Shocker is it not. The reason why I posted this was to show that the people in this world who are stoning people in the name of Islam are not really doing it in the name of Islam. This is to make a distinction. I pray that you get the point that I am making because I will not be repeating myself again. Anything I had to say was already said and anything after this will be a debate.

wa salam
 
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fatuma:
Ok, you don’t really seem to get what I am saying. The punishment for adultery is stoning. Are you with me so far? What I wrote below is explaining under what circumstances stoning is allowed. Are you still there? I also posted an example of what to do with someone who wants to be stoned because she want her sins erased when she meet her Lord. Did you read the way the prophet (saw) dealt with her? Are you still there because this is the important part? If somebody wanted to stone somebody for adultery, they would have to follow the rules stated below. When these rules are followed, it insures that you can never stone somebody for adultery. It’s close to impossible. Shocker is it not. The reason why I posted this was to show that the people in this world who are stoning people in the name of Islam are not really doing it in the name of Islam. This is to make a distinction. I pray that you get the point that I am making because I will not be repeating myself again. Anything I had to say was already said and anything after this will be a debate.

wa salam
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This seems to be a contradiction. Before you were arguing for the legitimacy of stoning someone, i.e. what you said the prophet did. Even though he did it after a long deliberated process, he still did it.

So are you saying it is legitimate to stone someone for adultery or not? It is not very clear to me. It sounds as though you are saying it is legitimate and it’s not legitimate. Which is it?

If you say that it is legitimate, then assisted suicide is not immoral, because it comes under the same auspice as the stoning situation you describe for the prophet. Someone wanted to die and the prophet acquiesced.

How is one moral (stoning) and the other (assisted suicide) immoral? You sound as though you want to admit stoning someone for adultery is wrong because you are saying that it hard for it to happen, almost that it shouldn’t happen and that it doesn’t represent Islam. That says to me you think it is wrong, so why legitimize it?

Is stoning for adultery morally right? If so, why the need to defend it by saying, “it rarely happens and doesn’t represent true Islam?” If it was moral, you wouldn’t need to defend it in such a fashion. I think you know it is immoral.
 
I have already replied to this. I would only be repeating myself, re-read my pervious post and you will get my answer. BTW, what I said to iamrefreshed in ’ woman and honor killing’ also stands here.

wa salam
 
I reread your previous posts, and I think you are arguing, at least from the prophets perspective, that it is okay to kill someone who desires it as payment for their sins.

However, in a later post you call assisted suicide a sin (I completely agree.)

Can you explain to me the difference between the woman who was stoned by the prophet and assisted suicide? Why is one a sin and the other not?

Let’s say, for instance, that I am an old man. In my youth, I was a petty thief, picking people’s pockets, stealing from their cars, etc. I gave it up because I found that it was immoral and I wished to repent for my deeds. I tell this to my doctor, and say, “kill me, for I deserve to die for my sins.” Would the doctor be justified in fulfilling my wish?

If it were anyone else in that story about the prophet, besides Muhammad, would you consider the killing of this woman immoral? Replace in that story Muhammad, and put in “doctor” or “friend,” does that make any difference to you whether it is a moral action or not?
 
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Faith101:
May Allah guide you and then forgive you for your ignorance.
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Hi Fatima,

Being a budding Catholic Apologist I understand that there are many “experts” in Catholicism who are anything but Catholic in nature, religion or heart. I can imagine the same is true for Islam.

While I am Catholic in every sense and hope someday you will be too, I can appreciate that you are deep into your faith as it is now. This is no insult. You seem truly reverent to God. My Faith just tells me more is needed.

Anyway, I welcome your corrections. Please read a thread I started on Islam having ONE Teaching Authority. I would welcome youre insight, opinions etc.
 
Corporal punishment is on the books even if you don’t agree with it. Stoning is a corporal punishment. In Islam if you commit a sin, you repent to God and leave it at that. If somebody commits a crime and they are guilt ridden with it, you either A) let them go and forget about it because it is between them and God or B) punish them using the law. I am not a scholar but on the whole it would be best to just forgive and forget if the person is sorry. I don’t know under what circumstances where you wouldn’t forgive but punish. The one with the woman being stone was an extreme; it was meant to be an extreme because this extreme can not fit into ordinary life, so we as ordinary people should not be stoning people. Those who do are in wrong.

wa salam
 
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