Women altar "servers" in the Extraordinary Form

[JimR-OCDS]

I never saw nuns serve at the TLM Mass when I was growing up, and not today in the NO, even at the Benedictine Monastery I’ve been to.

They did serve as sanctuariens,

Jim

 

[Maximilian75]

Is that monastery cloistered? Were there normal altar servers?

Again,

(This is utter recollection from a TLM seminarian/deacon in my Diocese from a few years ago, so I have no source, but I’m pretty sure…)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, it’s a cloistered Benedictine Monastery.

Jim

 

[MockSock]

Men perhaps are scared to step up

Men are “scared to step up”, because women will accuse them of perpetuating some kind of sexism that never existed in the first place.

 

[Brendan]

My mother went to an all girls convent school in Ireland. The common way of Daily Mass in the school chapel was for some of the girls to kneel at the altar rail and give the responses that the altar boys would normally give.

For Sunday Mass, the girls and sister would go to the town parish.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

That’s pretty much exactly what I observed, although this was an older woman and she was sitting in a chair in front of the side altar. The priest did everything by himself, she made the responses from afar, and we communicants passed the paten to each other when it was our turn to receive.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

I’m a girl. :girl:t2:

A few years ago I attended an EF low Mass where there was no one there except me and the priest and therefore no one but me to say the responses. So I did. I’m sure if it weren’t allowed that the priest (who knows me) would have told me to shut up.

He did not say anything to me about it afterward, either, or since.

I realize that this is merely anecdotal. However, that priest is not one to allow things to happen that shouldn’t be happening. If I should not have been articulating the servers’ responses, he would have stopped me.

 

[Augustinian]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be permitted for women to do altar service at a Latin Mass They are allowed elsewhere, it isn’t a problem.

However, this kind of thing really doesn’t sit well with the TLM Faithful, as females didn’t serve in this capacity during traditional days. Latin Masses are celebrated for these folks, who are really sensitive to any breach of tradition and what they remember or have been taught about the spirituality of the 1950’s and 1960’s.

Its probably just as well that only men serve at the altar at Extraordinary Masses.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

“The TLM Faithful” covers a broad stripe of the Church’s members, so the specific reasons for any objection may depend upon each individual’s affiliation.

Though most of my Mass attendance occurs in my territorial parish that offers the OF exclusively, I occasionally attend EF Mass with the community in the care of the ICRSS. All altar servers are male and it is not possible for girls or women to assume this role.

The local ordinary allows female altar servers in the diocesan parishes, with the assent of the pastor and the priest celebrating the Mass in question of course. The local ordinary also allows the ICRSS to function in the Archdiocese; his permission is necessary for them to do so. However, as a Society of Apostolic Life of pontifical right, the ICRSS can elect to exclude girls and women from altar service even though the Archbishop allows them to serve in this way in diocesan parishes. The ICRSS answers directly to the Holy See and not to the Archbishop. The Holy See allows them to operate according to the pre-Conciliar rubrics. The pre-Conciliar rubrics forbid girls and women to serve at the altar. So unlike the diocesan parishes whose pastors reserve altar service to males out of preference, it’s not simply a matter of the Canons not wanting to allow this or preferring not to. They can’t. To do so would violate the rubrics they function by.

This is my understanding of things, in any case, and it may not apply to all communities where the EF is celebrated. I could also be in error in my reasoning—again, I am not strictly speaking a member of the ICRSS parish, my presence among them is episodic and my knowledge of how and why they behave as they do is rather superficial. If I am wrong, I hope someone will correct me. God bless.

 

[Augustinian]

, I occasionally attend EF Mass with the community in the care of the ICRSS. All altar servers are male and it is not possible for girls or women to assume this role.

I can appreciate this, in regards to Latin Mass celebrated under the auspices of the ICRSS.

But the OP didn’t specify this, and the vast majority of TLM’s celebrated are done under the auspices of the diocese in question instead of under ICRSS or FSSP.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

My bad, I thought we were speaking in general terms and didn’t realize there was a specific diocese in question. Where I live, there is no EF Mass celebrated under the auspices of the Archdiocese. Carry on…

 

[Brendan]

Bishop gives a yes or now, then the pastor decides from there. I do not read any “except in the EF”.

Each of the Forms has it’s own set of Rubriucs. For the Ordinary form, it is the General Instruction of the Roman Missal typica 2010

For the Extraordinary Form, it is was mandated by Pope Benedict that the Missal of 1962 be used exclusively.

A bishop is not permitted to develop their own set of rubrics for either Form, if fact they are tasked with enforcing the approved rubrics at each Mass said within their jurisdiction

The Missal of 1962 uses the masculine for the altar servers. It is not within the power of a local bishop to change that.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Romans 16:1-2

Phoebe Commended.

1 * I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is [also] a minister* of the church at Cenchreae, 2 that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the holy ones, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a benefactor to many and to me as well.

 

[dochawk]

I mean, there’s no one else to serve but them. It’s a dang cloistered convent.

In the East, only subdeacons and major clergy enter the Holy Place (i.e., East of the iconostasis). Men substituting for those hard-to-find subdeacons also enter. Women do not (they could not be ordained as subdeacons).

Nonetheless, behind the cloisters, it has always been the case that a pair of nuns were set aside to serve.

(I think it is modern practice for the priest to cary the newly baptized and lead the just-crowenedd couple three times around the Holy Table).

I cannot image the West not doing the same, so the practice has a (very narrow) ancient practice . . .

 

[adgloriam]

Happened to me…A terrifying perspective to carry out those functions without previous preparation. I did get prompted several times to begin formation for Acolyte but work and circumstances hardly permitted.

 

[ProVobis]

If the nuns or anyone else know the beautiful Latin responses I don’t see a problem reciting from the pews.

 

[dochawk]

That’s pretty much exactly what I observed, although this was an older woman and she was sitting in a chair in front of the side altar. The priest did everything by himself, she made the responses from afar, and we communicants passed the paten to each other when it was our turn to receive.

I believe that the Tridentine liturgy’s altar boy responses are remnants of the people’s responses in the ancient Mass.

Older versions are known to have had more “back and forth” between the priest and people, as in Byzantine liturgy–but which parts were priest, and which people, was lost by that time. Accordingly, anything in doubt went to the priest to insure “validity”.

It’s a pity that there aren’t enough records to be able to go back to the ancient Mass of Rome . . . (OK, even then people would be complaining about using the traditional greek rather than the Roman vernacular ).

hawk

 

[PeterT]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t be permitted for women to do altar service at a Latin Mass They are allowed elsewhere, it isn’t a problem.

However, this kind of thing really doesn’t sit well with the TLM Faithful, as females didn’t serve in this capacity during traditional days. Latin Masses are celebrated for these folks, who are really sensitive to any breach of tradition and what they remember or have been taught about the spirituality of the 1950’s and 1960’s.

Its probably just as well that only men serve at the altar at Extraordinary Masses.

The only chink in this logic is that many who prefer EF Masses today were born AFTER the VII reforms. But ministers are ministers. If someone is allowed to be an altar server at an OF Mass, as long as they are properly trained, there should be no reason why they can’t serve the same function (altar server) at an EF Mass.

 

[Maximilian75]

Other than the fact that the Holy See allows parishes and dioceses to limit the ministry to men if they so choose.

 

[PeterT]

Other than the fact that the Holy See allows parishes and dioceses to limit the ministry to men if they so choose.

Yes, I understand that limitation. But if a diocese or parish does allow women to participate the ministry, I see no problems with the diocese (or parish) allowing the women altar servers to serve in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass too.