Women altar servers....

[EddieArent]

Exporter:

Up to this point in time I have not seen any “girl altar boys”.

Who would have the audacity to put a girl up by the altar during Mass?

The day I see that is the day I get up and walk out. I’d let the Pastor know why I walked out too.

Ha, you’ve never been to Orlando I see…

 

[Nota_Bene]

Catholic2003:

Look at this post in the old thread. The idea that Rome “caved in” to female altar servers is a complete rewriting of history worthy of George Orwell.

Before 1983, female altar servers were not permitted. Not coincidentally, the Vatican responded quite forcefully to the few parishes where this rule was being ignored:

Inaestimabile Donum (1980) - There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful.Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.

Liturgicae Instaurationes (1970) - In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

After 1983, the Vatican did not issue any documents condemning female altar servers, despite their now widespread use resulting from the approval given from canon lawyers. I don’t think this is a coincidence either.

The records of the 1978 meeting of pontifical committee that voted on canon 230 §2 indicate that the removal of the “male only” requirement had everything to do with the understanding that women were no longer prohibited from being in the sanctuary, and nothing at all to do with the desire to “roll over and play dead” in response to combating liturgical abuse.

And that is pure sewage. Canon lawyers don’t have the authority to give such approval. Pure sewage indeed.

 

[Timidity]

Exporter:

The day I see that is the day I get up and walk out. I’d let the Pastor know why I walked out too.

So your personal interpretation of the way things should be is more important than your duty to assist at Mass?

I’m always amazed at people who think that obedience to the Church means “doing only what I agree with”.

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

Look at this post in the old thread. The idea that Rome “caved in” to female altar servers is a complete rewriting of history worthy of George Orwell.

Yes, take a peek at the left wing spin. The agitators with an eye toward novelty did as they pleased and Rome allowed it as they often do to appease the rebellious teens.

Rome has said they may be allowed, but it has never been encouraged and each priest has the yes or no as to their use. That says it all.

As I have said before it is like kids cutting a path over someone’s lawn. Instead of correcting the selfish, they just pave the path and call it progress.

Make no mistake, it is an agenda.

 

[Annunciata]

IsaacSheen:

Throwing this one out there…

…Lastly, anyone who’d just like to give their thoughts/opinions I’d really appreciate it. Like I said, I missed the debate over it.

I have to say that I was among the first to think that it was appalling to see a girl altar server in my parish over 15 years ago and she became one quite by accident…her name was Jami and when she showed up to be trained they didn’t have the guts tell her to leave…

That said, let’s fast forward to 2005…My dear granddaughter is in training now… Not because she is trying to be a boy or wants to be a “priestess” someday, but because she is encouraging her younger brother. She is performing an act of charity as brother is a little reluctant…unsure of himself…

Am I going to discourage her??? NOT! This is a different world we live in and sometimes we have to make adjustments in our thinking… :yup:
I watched the interview w/ Cardinal Arinze on Worldover on EWTN the other day and he did not say that girls should not serve …He is not afraid to say the truth and had every opportunity to because he was asked directly. That said, he did stress that boy altar servers could/should be encouraged to become priests by emulating “Good, Holy Priests”… He also said it was up to the bishops to decide in their own dioceses on girl altar servers.

BTW, Her father and uncle were altar servers till they were 16 and we had hoped for a vocation or two…

Just maybe her act of kindness will encourage a vocation in her younger brother…

 

[mommy]

We used to have them a lot at our church. Now I think we only have girls, when Father can’t schedule any boys. And I’d say the girls time on the altar is limited. We got a new priest last spring, and he’s made a LOT of change, (for the better) and I think he’s been smart about them, slowly you see things getting tighter, more formal, more traditional. Had he done everything the first week it wouldn’t have worked. But I’d say by his year and a half anniversary you won’t recognize things at our church. But it is great.

 

[fix]

Annunciata:

Am I going to discourage her??? NOT! This is a different world we live in and sometimes we have to make adjustments in our thinking… :yup:

That is what the libs count on.

 

[Annunciata]

fix:

That is what the libs count on.

And…nothing is all black or all white anymore…there is the color grey…:yup:
And, in my isolated case, I will totally support my granddaughter for her charity, not only toward her brother, but to her service for the Lord… Who knows, maybe it will inspire her to become a nun.
She is a very fine young lady of almost 13 and a leader amongst her
classmates.
How many 13 year old’s do you know who even want to go to church anymore…let alone serve on the altar!!! I taught that age level in CCD and trust me… there are very few.

 

[fix]

Annunciata:

And…nothing is all black or all white anymore…there is the color grey…:yup:
And, in my isolated case, I will totally support my granddaughter for her charity, not only toward her brother, but to her service for the Lord… Who knows, maybe it will inspire her to become a nun.
She is a very fine young lady of almost 13 and a leader amongst her
classmates.
How many 13 year old’s do you know who even want to go to church anymore…let alone serve on the altar!!! I taught that age level in CCD and trust me… there are very few.

I am not against your granddaughter serving mass. I am against the mindset that initiated female servers and I am against the mindset that accepts compromise at every turn.

These small changes have an affect. They are particularly insidious when they are started by private initiative and are foisted on the community as if the mass were one’s private property.

They know most are pew potatoes and will say and do nothing to thwart novelty and abuse.

If your granddaugther is mature as you say, then she may be open to learning that the Church has many factions and some factions are rebellious and want to place their will above the Church.

 

[Catholic2003]

Nota Bene:

And that is pure sewage. Canon lawyers don’t have the authority to give such approval. Pure sewage indeed.

Well, I guess technically it was the bishops who had the authority, even though they relied upon the canon lawyers for their interpretation of the new canon law.

There is no justification at all for the theory that, when Pope John Paul II promulgated the 1983 Code of Canon Law allowing female altar servers, the bishops were obliged to ask him if he really meant it before they started following the new code.

From EWTN’s article A PROFILE OF AMERICAN CANONISTS by Duane L.C.M. Galles:

A canonist or canon lawyer is usually described as someone who has studied canon law and has a degree in the field. Under canon 1421 #3 of the Code of Canon Law the minimum qualification for the office of judge of a canonical tribunal is the pontifical degree of Licentiate in Canon Law (abbreviated J.C.L.). “Pontifical” simply means that the institution is authorized by the Holy See to grant ecclesiastical degrees and the licentiate is a two-year graduate degree program in canon law. To canon law it is what the Juris Doctor or Bachelor of Laws degree is to civil law. The Doctorate in Canon Law (J.C.D.) is a further graduate degree and usually requires another year of study and a thesis.

From EWTN’s article CANON LAW AND ITS INTERPRETATION by Duane L.C.M. Galles:

Other types of interpretation are not binding. Interpretation is called doctrinal or private if given by those skilled in canon law. “Doctrinal” here has nothing to do with theology. In civil or Roman law countries one distinguishes “la doctrine,” the opinion of jurists or law professors, from “la jurisprudence,” judicial opinions or case law. Doctrinal interpretation derives its authority from the cogency of its legal reasoning and the clarity of its exposition.

 

[Annunciata]

fix:

I am not against your granddaughter serving mass. I am against the mindset that initiated female servers and I am against the mindset that accepts compromise at every turn.

These small changes have an affect. They are particularly insidious when they are started by private initiative and are foisted on the community as if the mass were one’s private property.

They know most are pew potatoes and will say and do nothing to thwart novelty and abuse.

If your granddaugther is mature as you say, then she may be open to learning that the Church has many factions and some factions are rebellious and want to place their will above the Church.

I can assure you that we BOTH want what God wants as I’m sure you do…
I admire your zeal for Holy Mother Church and am right there beside you in protecting Her from abuse of any kind …
We do have to be ever vigilant…

 

[Nota_Bene]

fix:

Yes, take a peek at the left wing spin. The agitators with an eye toward novelty did as they pleased and Rome allowed it as they often do to appease the rebellious teens.

Rome has said they may be allowed, but it has never been encouraged and each priest has the yes or no as to their use. That says it all.

As I have said before it is like kids cutting a path over someone’s lawn. Instead of correcting the selfish, they just pave the path and call it progress.

Make no mistake, it is an agenda.

The Dutch bishops are trying this exact same tactic right now – Announce to the press that lay preachers are already giving homilies in Catholic parishes in the Netherlands, just before meeting with Pope JPII for an ad limina visit. Make it a done deal before ever discussing it.

In this case however, I think JPII is going to cut the legs out from under these boorish bishops…

 

[pazdziernik]

If boys are never close to priests and around priests and get to know priests then they will never consider being priests. I know many boys (ages 8- 12) who do not want to serve because girls are serving. Today we say “It’s their choice let them decide.” In the past the pastor or father of a family would say " you serve" and the boys would hapily serve even if reluctant at first.

 

[Nota_Bene]

And…nothing is all black or all white anymore…there is the color grey…:yup:
And, in my isolated case, I will totally support my granddaughter for her charity, not only toward her brother, but to her service for the Lord… Who knows, maybe it will inspire her to become a nun.
She is a very fine young lady of almost 13 and a leader amongst her
classmates.
How many 13 year old’s do you know who even want to go to church anymore…let alone serve on the altar!!! I taught that age level in CCD and trust me… there are very few.

Sounds like some sort of euphemism for proclaiming that one will follow their own desires rather than what the Church actually instructs…

 

[fix]

Nota Bene:

The Dutch bishops are trying this exact same tactic right now – Announce to the press that lay preachers are already giving homilies in Catholic parishes in the Netherlands, just before meeting with Pope JPII for an ad limina visit. Make it a done deal before ever discussing it.

In this case however, I think JPII is going to cut the legs out from under these boorish bishops…

Indeed. C2003 always wants to spin this situation. The truth is it started by some leftists with an agenda. The “lawyers” can spin anything. Rome gave in and it was several years before they gave the official “blessing” on the proper interpretation of the law. Novelty won out that time.

 

[Catholic2003]

fix:

Indeed. C2003 always wants to spin this situation.

Consider:

Authentic Interpretation: The diocesan bishop is not able to allow a layperson to give a homily (c. 767.1)

The doubt: Whether the diocesan bishop is able to dispense from the prescription of c. 767.1, by which the homily is reserved to priests and deacons.

The response: Negative.

June 20, 1987
AAS 79 (1987) 1249.

So much for the theory that Rome always “caves in” to liturgical abuse.

 

[Nota_Bene]

Catholic2003:

Consider:

So much for the theory that Rome always “caves in” to liturgical abuse.

It’s still not stopping the ULTA-heterodox Dutch bishops from trying to force the issue with the Pontiff, however.

This sleazy, slithering, slimy, scummy, skuzzy manueavering needs to cease.

 

[Nota_Bene]

fix:

Indeed. C2003 always wants to spin this situation. The truth is it started by some leftists with an agenda. The “lawyers” can spin anything. Rome gave in and it was several years before they gave the official “blessing” on the proper interpretation of the law. Novelty won out that time.

I think the scummers have pushed too far at this point and the Church is beginning to push back in a very concrete manner.

Only G-d knows what the future brings, but I would guess the comments in RS regarding the service of altar boys is the first step in the process of disallowing females to serve at the altar.

I also think those Dutch bishops are going to face a resolve of granite when they enter the Vatican…

 

[ThornGenX]

My parish has female altar, and they don’t really bother me. Still, I sometimes wonder if the more traditionally oriented people may be right about it being helpful to increase the number of vocations to the priesthood to have boys only as altar servers.

 

[Annunciata]

Nota Bene:

Sounds like some sort of euphemism for proclaiming that one will follow their own desires rather than what the Church actually instructs…

Well, if following ones bishop is proclaiming disobedience, which is what you are more or less acusing me off, then so be it!!!
I happen to know that my Archbishop, Sean Patrick O’Malley of Boston, is totally faithful to Rome and has been sent to my Archdiocese to do an awesome task…
BTW, you might spend some time praying for him and ALL bishops that they will be faithful to the Magisterium and all litugical practices…