Women and Dress

[somecanadian]

I know several men who have been raped. One as a child in a public bathroom, one as a child by his babysitter, and one as an adult by a strange woman he hadn’t welcomed into his home.

In each case they did not ever report or speak of their rape except to me because they realized I wouldn’t mock them for it after discovering I had also been the subject of abuse.

Men CAN overpower women but if a man DOES he is vilified and often imprisoned. Even in a scenario where a woman is raping a man, a man may not fight back because he realizes if he hits her he will be seen as the aggressor, even if he was only attempting to defend himself.

So yes, I see how men being physically stronger can make it seem as if men being sexually aggressive is the bigger issue but women have far more power in society than we are given credit for.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

To be fair, there is a pretty key difference when women harass men. As a guy, I know that it’s overwhelmingly likely that if a woman tried to do something unwelcome to me, worst case scenario I can simply shove her off. Not to say that there aren’t women out there who could kick my butt, but as a general rule, it’s not something I worry about. And I’m a standard issue 180 lbs dude, not a cage fighter.

Women obviously can’t fall back on physical force quite as easily. At least, not as a default option, because theyre almost always going to be squaring off with someone bigger and stronger.

Not telling you anything you don’t know obviously, just thinking out loud.

BoomBoom I think you might have tripped into the neighboring minefield!

 

[FollowChrist34]

Well I am Generation X. My childhood was my stepmom’s Germaine Greer and Erica Jong on the coffee table. And on to MTV 24/7. Promiscuity as self exploration, the 80s, 90s, Shades of Grey is the modern version. In my generation to be a prude was the worst, you were repressed, missing out. I resent that nonsense; it caused me a lot of misery. It causes our culture a lot of misery. I personally would give higher marks to the Puritans. Or the Greeks. Let’s not forget Phaedra just as one example. Passion vs. self control. This stuff is as old as the hills. Liberals did not uncover the sex drive. Or ever really even understand it very well I would argue.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Well, biologically men and women are different, right. High levels of testosterone vs. estrogen have very different effects.

They have different effect on the different sexes. Testosterone in men tends to increase libido, and estrogen in women… also tends to increase libido! The converse tends to hold as well: As men age and more of their testosterone is converted to dihydrotestosterone, and they experience a spike in estrogen (yes men have estrogen) their sex drive is diminished. As women lose estrogen with menopause or their progesterone levels peak they too experience a diminished sex drive. There are also dozens of other hormones involved in libido that are shared among the sexes in roughly equal proportion. Oxytocin is a very important contributor to enhanced libido. Vasopressin is a contributor as well, though it seems to have opposite effects in the two sexes: it increases libido in men and decreases libido in women. Vasopressin also increases aggression in women which might explain why it simultaneously decreases libido similar to how in men too much testosterone increases aggression and diminishes libido (ask an honest steroid junky what his sex drive is like since he started juicing).

Men produce sperm on a continual basis, women ovulate once a month.

This is a much more salient point, in my opinion but it’s important that it isn’t overstated. That female fertility is more time dependent than male fertility theoretically means that a woman’s sex drive can be expected to be focused on that particular time compared to a man’s whose sex drive can be expected to be evenly distributed over the course of his entire sexually competent life. But for all we know a woman’s sex drive is significantly more intense during that week of ovulation more than a man’s is throughout the month! I honestly don’t know what’s truly the case.

I think a lot of women in today’s culture are pressured to act like men about sex; discover their buried rampant out of control lust. […]

And this is what I think a lot of the women in this thread are taking issue with. Even if you grant that women are indeed being pressured to be more sexually libertine and men are being pressured to be more sentimental it doesn’t follow that an increased expression of both in the respective sexes reflect that pressure. It could very well be that these were always there from the beginning and it’s only now that women and men are allowed to express them. Now I can’t know what women feel or experience because I’m not a woman, and I’m not about to start mansplaining their sexuality to them, but when the consensus among them seems to be “yeah, no, we’ve always had sex drives just as mature and functioning as yours” I’m inclined to believe them. The reason I’m inclined to believe them is because of the equal yet opposite gender expectation I’ve mentioned having experienced above.

 

[Pup7]

To be fair, there is a pretty key difference when women harass men. As a guy, I know that it’s overwhelmingly likely that if a woman tried to do something unwelcome to me, worst case scenario I can simply shove her off. Not to say that there aren’t women out there who could kick my butt, but as a general rule, it’s not something I worry about. And I’m a standard issue 180 lbs dude, not a cage fighter.

Women obviously can’t fall back on physical force quite as easily. At least, not as a default option, because theyre almost always going to be squaring off with someone bigger and stronger.

Not telling you anything you don’t know obviously, just thinking out loud.

Did you read about the Katy Perry incident?

There’s no difference at all - and even thinking it’s down to physical strength is a problem. If the force comes at you out of the blue, I can promise you a 98 pound woman can easily put a 200 pound man on his back before he knew what hit him. You actually don’t need special training for that, either. The issue is we’re taught “girls don’t do that”.

This girl would.

There’s no difference when women harass men. Women get off scot free in most cases because the man is essentially shamed into thinking he’s supposed to be grateful for the attention or that it proves he’s a man.

I’ve had comments made to me - trust me, as a female who worked in a male dominated career field I’ve heard it all. And I met them on their level - and very quickly it was obvious that that behavior wasn’t going to fly with me. I’m not necessarily proud of it, but I clearly didn’t tolerate it. Just like that guy on the street - who got called a rather unflattering term that night that made the guy walking behind me stop and literally crack up laughing.

 

[FollowChrist34]

but when the consensus among them seems to be “yeah, no, we’ve always had sex drives just as mature and functioning as yours” I’m inclined to believe them. The reason I’m inclined to believe them is because of the equal yet opposite gender expectation I’ve mentioned having experienced above.

Well I would be careful with considering this a consensus - I would be more inclined to dismiss it as the ultimate male fantasy. I remember reading really funny essays from men about how they are more sexual than women and what a bummer this is. I will try and find one. It was years ago. Some study about how men think about sex 20 times a day, women like 3. I will look for it.

 

[Pup7]

Well I would be careful with considering this a consensus - I would dismiss it as the ultimate male fantasy. I remember read really funny essays from men about how they are more sexual than women and what a bummer this is. I will try and find one. It was years ago. Some study about how men think about sex 20 times a day, women like 3. I will look for it.

Thinking about the ACT and thinking LUSTFULLY can be different yet the same.

Trust me - women are just as sexual as men.

I’ve read that study. Dig a bit farther. Kinsey and Masters and Johnson were accurate, even if they were somewhat odd - they were at least on the right track.

 

[somecanadian]

I feel like our arguments are falling on deaf ears here…

Literally have women in this thread stating the reality is we have lust and sexual desires of our own and that’s being dismissed as a ‘male fantasy’.

 

[DarkLight]

To be fair, there is a pretty key difference when women harass men. As a guy, I know that it’s overwhelmingly likely that if a woman tried to do something unwelcome to me, worst case scenario I can simply shove her off. Not to say that there aren’t women out there who could kick my butt, but as a general rule, it’s not something I worry about. And I’m a standard issue 180 lbs dude, not a cage fighter.

To be honest, I think a lot of the problem with this is that the rate of assault that occurs by someone overpowering a stranger is fairly low. Men are just as vulnerable as women to pretty much everything other than a fair fight.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

I agree that on average sexual harassment/assault by women on men isn’t as consequential as harassment/assault by men on women due to the force/strength differential, but that’s not what Pup said. She said:

One of the things I’ve realized with this whole #metoo thing is how many WOMEN do this to men, and how it’s regarded as okay. Not the yelling stuff like “how much” or catcalls, but how much some push the boundaries and men are ‘expected’ to put up with it.

That there are differences in the consequences of harassment doesn’t mean it isn’t still harassment/assault or that it doesn’t occur as frequently.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

My ideas are always overlooked.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Listen, sweetheart, just sit down and be quiet while I tell you how you really feel.

 

[somecanadian]

LOL! I haven’t heard that before!

 

[mrsdizzyd]

This girl would.

Pup, in my mind’s eye you are some combination of GI Jane, She-Ra, Zena Warrior Princess, and Rambo rolled into one.

Respect

(In modest clothing and without the disturbing level of hyper-sexuality)

 

[somecanadian]

Right? Haha. I’m not like that. I’m a big girl and people don’t mess with me because I LOOK intimidating but if push came to shove I’d crumble like a piece of paper. Haha.

Mad respect to Pup, the female Rambo. LOL!

 

[Joe_5859]

I feel like our arguments are falling on deaf ears here…

I wouldn’t say that. I’m actually impressed with how civil this thread has been so far, and I am enjoying the other perspectives.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

My ideas are always overlooked.

You’re right! I’m sorry, I hadn’t seen this:

Maybe we need those sunglasses with those extra dark lenses so you won’t be able to see or everyone puts another potato sack over their heads.

I’ll respectfully note, however, that your post would’ve gained currency had you couched it in terms of (or at least implied that its source was) the biblical mandate for women to cover their heads and the very Catholic expectation that women who don’t are necessarily hussies.

As an aside, who’s going to fill that niche for burlap/sackcloth mantillas? I bet those would sell like hotcakes at the TLM during Lent!

 

[mrsdizzyd]

@Pup7 is kind of my hero, to be honest.

People mess with me all the time because I don’t look like I’d stand up for myself… and then they feel my wrath and back off. If they don’t back off they’ll end up staring back at the business end of my Ruger (or Colt depending which I’m carrying at the time).

(Observing all applicable laws of course. )

 

[Pup7]

I agree that on average sexual harassment/assault by women on men isn’t as consequential as harassment/assault by men on women due to the force/strength differential, but that’s not what Pup said. She said:

Pup7:

One of the things I’ve realized with this whole #metoo thing is how many WOMEN do this to men, and how it’s regarded as okay. Not the yelling stuff like “how much” or catcalls, but how much some push the boundaries and men are ‘expected’ to put up with it.

That there are differences in the consequences of harassment doesn’t mean it isn’t still harassment/assault or that it doesn’t occur as frequently.

I totally agree. I’m just out of likes, LOL. It’s a problem.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Also, a force differential isn’t the only kind that exists. Besides a few of the outliers like Cosby and Weinstein my impression of the #metoo movement is mostly about addressing sexual harassment and assault in situations involving a power differential. It’s not that these women couldn’t physically fight off their attackers but that their attackers had power over them that made them feel helpless. We live in an age now where women can have power over men so there will certainly be situations in which women can truly be the aggressor.

I bartended throughout college and boy let me tell ya some of those cougar patrons were fierce. Get a couple glasses of chardonnay in them and before you know it they’re grabbing your biceps without permission, pinching your butt, saying really inappropriate things, etc. I could easily have knocked any one of them out cold, but that’s not the point. They were my patrons and my source of income. I begrudgingly put up with it because I decided doing anything about it was going to cause me more grief than the harassment itself.