Women and Jesus

[rinnie]

This one is priceless, i had a horrible week, I lost my Father, But please this is not about me, anyway i flew home, and the first place i went the next day was Church. That is where i knew i would find him, anyway Father had his gospel and said that someone came up to him and asked him. Father why is it in the bible that no women ever betrayed Jesus. Only men. Women only followed him, and loved him… Did anyone ever think of that one. Where in the bible does is say that a women ever betrayed Jesus?

 

[Nita]

This one is priceless, i had a horrible week, I lost my Father, But please this is not about me, anyway i flew home, and the first place i went the next day was Church. That is where i knew i would find him, anyway Father had his gospel and said that someone came up to him and asked him. Father why is it in the bible that no women ever betrayed Jesus. Only men. Women only followed him, and loved him… Did anyone ever think of that one. Where in the bible does is say that a women ever betrayed Jesus?

Not sure what you all include in “betrayed”. If you mean specifically turning Him in to the authorities for crucifixion - then no. Women were not members of the Sanhedrin. But, there may well have been women in the the crowd that yelled “Crucify Him”.

Also, in regards to running away when Jesus was arrested, no women were present in the Garden of Gethsemane, so obviously no woman fled at that time.

But, if by betraying, you mean sin or deceit, then there are instances cited in Scripture. Eg. the adulteress in John 8; later after the resurrection, there is Sapphira in Acts 5:7-11.

Nita

 

[NotWorthy]

Not sure what you all include in “betrayed”. If you mean specifically turning Him in to the authorities for crucifixion - then no. Women were not members of the Sanhedrin. But, there may well have been women in the the crowd that yelled “Crucify Him”.

Also, in regards to running away when Jesus was arrested, no women were present in the Garden of Gethsemane, so obviously no woman fled at that time.

But, if by betraying, you mean sin or deceit, then there are instances cited in Scripture. Eg. the adulteress in John 8; later after the resurrection, there is Sapphira in Acts 5:7-11.

Nita

I think I see the OP’s point. All the women in the Gospels were loyal followers. You see the women of Jerusalem weeping and mourning for him on the way to Golgotha. You see Mary and Martha, Mary Magdalene, His dear mother Mary, of course. All the women that Jesus encounters become (or remain) followers, as the Samaritan woman, the Syro-Phoenician woman, and the hemorrhaging woman.

Of course there are wonderful stories of men as well - the Leper, the Lazarus, the paralytic, almost too many to mention.

But there are also more than a handful of people like Judas and the Pharisees that turn on Him.

The woman in John, chapter 8, may be the only exception that immediately comes to mind, but only because the Scriptures are silent on her (although isn’t there a tradition that she is Mary Magdalene?). She by no means betrays Jesus.

The worst woman I know of is Herodius, but she is never said to encounter Jesus.

BTW, rinnie, my condolences on the loss of your Father.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

The woman in John 8, could be any woman – if Mary magdalane, then at the time – she was antagonistic toward Jesus, for the encounter shows that not only is she willing to bring forth the evidence, but evidently thinks she can get the better of the argument. But her betrayal is in terms of sin, not of loyalty – as she was not a follower to this point. However, one could also imagine Salome, Herodias’ daughter in exactly that same role antagonizing Jesus too… how convenient a trap.

The woman at the well, too, you’ll notice is not recorded giving Jesus a drink … but challenging him on the question. It isn’t until she looses the battle of wits that she recognizes Jesus for who he is.

But there is one other mildly controversial example, which is somewhat embarassing, of one woman who is rather selfish with regard to Jesus – and that is the Wife of Zebedee, who at the moment Jesus is facing certain death, and Peter appears somewhat discredited, chooses that moment to make a political statement to Jesus asking that John and James sit as his right and left hand when he comes into power. John, at least mechanistically, did not abandon Jesus – but the mother of Zebedee, is pridefully telling Jesus that his choice of Peter stinks…

I also notice, that women are not recorded carrying swords – so that they were little better than Peter and John who followed Jesus as far as they could without controversy. I do not hear or see of any women who were at the trial of Jesus in scripture like John… Nor do I hear of any women fighting for Jesus on the way to crucifixion, or laying down their lives for him in passive resistance…

So, I would ask you, do you think that no holy men followed Jesus to the cross – Joseph of Arimathea, risked his life – to provide a burial. If he knew when the death was, how was it that he wasn’t at the cross? Reading into silence is easy

 

[Huiou_Theou]

One other line of thought … these types of arguments also overlook the male-female tension in our country which reads into the text things which aren’t really there.

But as a sub-topic which is veiled by this kind of question, if women were so devoted, why isn’t one of them an Apostle? ( Because it is impossible? Cheuvanistic? what? ) Think about it – One of the old testament Judges ( a leader of the people in battle … was a woman. ) Jesus certainly wasn’t afraid of dying for the truth, was he? Even Luke, the highly Greek writer – has much Good to say about women in Jesus’ ministry – which either means that people believe lots of excessively chevanistic history without basis, or the problem is nuanced…

Also, if the women were such devoted followers providing food all the time, why is it that they run out occasionally … often enough for some major multiplication miracles …

I think one has to ask the question, what is the author’s purpose in depicting women a certain way in the Gospel – what really was the social norms of the time? ( I don’t pretend to have the whole answer )

But Hint: I have read primary accounts recording at least Roman women occasionally divorcing their husbands, at slightly later periods, rather than it always being the man to put the woman away. Not that the women were “equal-rights” as they are “now” … but the problem is clouded by rhetoric. HIstory is full of delightful twists…

 

[NotWorthy]

The woman in John 8, could be any woman – if Mary magdalane, then at the time – she was antagonistic toward Jesus, for the encounter shows that not only is she willing to bring forth the evidence, but evidently thinks she can get the better of the argument. But her betrayal is in terms of sin, not of loyalty – as she was not a follower to this point. However, one could also imagine Salome, Herodias’ daughter in exactly that same role antagonizing Jesus too… how convenient a trap.

OK, Huiou, if just about anybody else made this statement, I’d have to throw a flag on the play and challenge the call. But with the insight you’ve displayed, I can’t just do that. But I would like to know where you get the underlined part out of the passage? Other than her minor role in “riding dirty” with someone (who conveniently is not present), she seems to be an innocent bystander.

The woman at the well, too, you’ll notice is not recorded giving Jesus a drink … but challenging him on the question. It isn’t until she looses the battle of wits that she recognizes Jesus for who he is.

Is she challenging Him, or is she surprised that a Jew has “broken ranks” and dared to lower Himself to talk to a Samaritan woman?

But there is one other mildly controversial example, which is somewhat embarassing, of one woman who is rather selfish with regard to Jesus – and that is the Wife of Zebedee, who at the moment Jesus is facing certain death, and Peter appears somewhat discredited, chooses that moment to make a political statement to Jesus asking that John and James sit as his right and left hand when he comes into power. John, at least mechanistically, did not abandon Jesus – but the mother of Zebedee, is pridefully telling Jesus that his choice of Peter stinks…

That’s a good point. The mother of “Larry and Moe” certainly showed that she “didn’t get it” yet.

I also notice, that women are not recorded carrying swords – so that they were little better than Peter and John who followed Jesus as far as they could without controversy. I do not hear or see of any women who were at the trial of Jesus in scripture like John… Nor do I hear of any women fighting for Jesus on the way to crucifixion, or laying down their lives for him in passive resistance…

You are questioning why women assumed their roles as the lesser half of society?

So, I would ask you, do you think that no holy men followed Jesus to the cross – Joseph of Arimathea, risked his life – to provide a burial. If he knew when the death was, how was it that he wasn’t at the cross? Reading into silence is easy

I don’t think the point of the OP was that women had a monopoly on Faith and Perseverence. But that woman were more consistent in their Faith and Perseverence.

You do bring up a good point with the Mother of James and John (Larry and Moe). Maybe she is just an example of that old maxim, “Insanity is hereditary - you get it from your kids”.

 

[rinnie]

I have to go back and read the other scripture, But as far as the woman at the well that last lady was right on. Jesus did lower himself to talk to her. Women in those days were not worthy to talk to Jesus. You have to know the time and the dates to understand the bible. What the woman meant was why are you talking to me, i am nobody, but Jesus showed her she is somebody.

 

[rinnie]

Not sure what you all include in “betrayed”. If you mean specifically turning Him in to the authorities for crucifixion - then no. Women were not members of the Sanhedrin. But, there may well have been women in the the crowd that yelled “Crucify Him”.

Also, in regards to running away when Jesus was arrested, no women were present in the Garden of Gethsemane, so obviously no woman fled at that time.

But, if by betraying, you mean sin or deceit, then there are instances cited in Scripture. Eg. the adulteress in John 8; later after the resurrection, there is Sapphira in Acts 5:7-11.

Nita

Okay in Acts the women didnt betray Jesus. She was aware of what her husband did that is all she was guilty of and she did lie for him. Women in those days had no authority alone own anything. She had no say in it. She only lied because in those days you didnt cross your husband. Now as far as John 8 im not seeing it. And yes it was Mary Magadalene, and actually she stayed with Jesus till the end. She was the one in Mark 16:1 who went to anoint Jesus. She also was at the foot of the cross and cried with the Blessed Mother when Jesus was crucified.

 

[Swan]

I have to go back and read the other scripture, But as far as the woman at the well that last lady was right on. Jesus did lower himself to talk to her. Women in those days were not worthy to talk to Jesus. You have to know the time and the dates to understand the bible. What the woman meant was why are you talking to me, i am nobody, but Jesus showed her she is somebody.

Ditto. And just because the Bible doesn’t mention women in Gethsemane, doesn’t mean there weren’t any present.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . . Jesus did lower himself to talk to her. Women in those days were not worthy to talk to Jesus. . . …

My immediate response - Who was worthy to talk to Him?

 

[rinnie]

My immediate response - Who was worthy to talk to Him?

okay smart… Just kidding

 

[NotWorthy]

My immediate response - Who was worthy to talk to Him?

I’m NotWorthy!

Bad pun!

 

[rinnie]

I’m NotWorthy!

Bad pun!

none of us are. But lucky for us he still loves us. I always say i know he loves me and he came here especially for me. Because Jesus didnt come for the good ones, he came for the sinners. Thats me but im tryin

 

[Huiou_Theou]

OK, Huiou, if just about anybody else made this statement, I’d have to throw a flag on the play and challenge the call. But with the insight you’ve displayed, I can’t just do that. But I would like to know where you get the underlined part out of the passage? Other than her minor role in “riding dirty” with someone (who conveniently is not present), she seems to be an innocent bystander.

Because the passage is so interesting and difficult, I have studied it very carefully.
The underlined phrase refers to what is usually translated in english “She was caught in the Act” – the particular phrase in Greek refers to the dumbest of criminals, practically exclusively, who “give” themselves away in court or public (not the scene of the crime, but they prove they did it themselves). Typically it is used of thieves who “show off” the evidence to the general public of what they have stolen – Several other indications in the passage also show that the woman had little or no fear of being stoned. (Eg: When everyone else slinks away – she remains there “naked” in the full Jewish sense of the word – and once they were Gone, why did she remain? – Roman law forbade the killing of her, surely she wasn’t really concerned …Jesus was looking away until it became obvious she wouldn’t leave … and the Romans permitted prostitution, I believe they required some kind of head band/face covering “advertising” what kind of woman she is… )

On the other hand, the entire episode takes place inside the temple from the text – Jesus is seated on the floor, in his usual teaching place. If it were the porch of Gentiles, that could be OK – but if it were the porch of men, the woman would definitely be out of place. ( And the Pharisees accused St. Paul of defiling the temple! – she wasn’t a “suspect” brought to take the bitter water test before the priests – she was absolutely Guilty – so what is filfth like that doing in the temple?)

Now as to where is the other party, that should be irrelevant to Jewish law (perhaps they didn’t catch him – or perhaps, he or she wasn’t a Jew.)
It is less stressful to ignore his missing-ness than to notice all the out of place things going on at this mock “opinion” trial.

Is she challenging Him, or is she surprised that a Jew has “broken ranks” and dared to lower Himself to talk to a Samaritan woman?

Both, disbelief at what he was doing probably bred suspicion of a practical joke or excuse to pick a fight or something. She challenged him, though, rather than give him a drink – which he asked for. Why? ( Because he stooped to her level, so she doesn’t trust him even more? ) or she “didn’t understand” — did Judas understand?

That’s a good point. The mother of “Larry and Moe” certainly showed that she “didn’t get it” yet.
You are questioning why women assumed their roles as the lesser half of society?

No, not so much the “why” as the extent of this role. For example I had a university professor try to tell my class that in Greek society women lived seperated from the men, where they raised the children. But any reading of ancient Greek history shows this to be a pretty uncommon – Only the really wealthy kings would do that with the concubines, and Plato (Plationic!!!) in his bid for Eugenics posed it as an “idea” — but the truth is, that style of living was terribly impractical for the common and poor who are often found in texts living with their wives.

So, I question the extent of this “lesser role” as women are not totally inferior in Jewish society (eg: bathsheba got a throne…) and there appears to be a blanket bias which hides the give and take in these social norms. ( Women did have it rough, by our standards…)

I don’t think the point of the OP was that women had a monopoly on Faith and Perseverence. But that woman were more consistent in their Faith and Perseverence.

You’re right, it does SEEM that way – and the OP is just open ended, but I keep thinking there may be other reasons the authors chose to portraying women the way they did… Perhaps it was necessary for Jesus’ image as a rabbi, or other such speculation (I don’t know, I am grasping at straw). Kindness to women is not unknown in the OT – EG: Esther, Ruth, etc. During all those early years of the church, what was made of Jesus’ extra kindness toward women? and why do we hear so little about it if it were scandalous socially? It seems to me to be more an issue of the pride of the rich, rather than a strict caste system, like in India.

 

[NotWorthy]

Because the passage is so interesting and difficult, I have studied it very carefully.
The underlined phrase refers to what is usually translated in english “She was caught in the Act” – the particular phrase in Greek refers to the dumbest of criminals, practically exclusively, who “give” themselves away in court or public (not the scene of the crime, but they prove they did it themselves). Typically it is used of thieves who “show off” the evidence to the general public of what they have stolen – Several other indications in the passage also show that the woman had little or no fear of being stoned. (Eg: When everyone else slinks away – she remains there “naked” in the full Jewish sense of the word – and once they were Gone, why did she remain? – Roman law forbade the killing of her, surely she wasn’t really concerned …Jesus was looking away until it became obvious she wouldn’t leave … and the Romans permitted prostitution, I believe they required some kind of head band/face covering “advertising” what kind of woman she is… )

But the text doesn’t indicate the woman is anything other than a pawn for the Pharisees and Scribes.

3 *** Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman*** who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle.*** 4 ****** They said to him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery.****** 5 ****** Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”****** 6 ****** They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him***. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger.

The brought her in knowing that stoning was an option. Are you sure the woman was willing to take this chance? I would seriously doubt it.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Okay in Acts the women didnt betray Jesus. She was aware of what her husband did that is all she was guilty of and she did lie for him. Women in those days had no authority alone own anything. She had no say in it. She only lied because in those days you didnt cross your husband. Now as far as John 8 im not seeing it. And yes it was Mary Magadalene, and actually she stayed with Jesus till the end. She was the one in Mark 16:1 who went to anoint Jesus. She also was at the foot of the cross and cried with the Blessed Mother when Jesus was crucified.

Rinnie, look again – I think Saphira is accused of ploting with Annias, Acts 5:1. I have to stretch the imagination to think that God would strike her dead for being afraid of crossing her husband – God reads the hearts.

As far as Magdaline goes, that is something my dad likes to hold – she apparently “liked men” and sex, and was quite independently wealthy… A woman of influence…

In the old testament, certain women were allowed to inherit property themselves as an act of Justice by Moses – so the Jewish law was not quite as oppresive as some might think.

 

[NotWorthy]

Okay in Acts the women didnt betray Jesus. She was aware of what her husband did that is all she was guilty of and she did lie for him. Women in those days had no authority alone own anything. She had no say in it. She only lied because in those days you didnt cross your husband.

I think Huiou Theou has it right. Hopefully God doesn’t strike women down simply for standing by their man.

Now as far as John 8 im not seeing it. And yes it was Mary Magadalene, and actually she stayed with Jesus till the end.

I don’t think there’s any substance to this, other than the fact that it was Christian tradition. I’d also heard that Mary Magdalene was the woman with all the demons in her that Jesus exorcised.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

But the text doesn’t indicate the woman is anything other than a pawn for the Pharisees and Scribes.

3 *** Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman***

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy;3433985:

But the text doesn’t indicate the woman is anything other than a pawn for the Pharisees and Scribes.

3 *** Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman***

who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle.*** 4 ****** They said to him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery.****** 5 ****** Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”****** 6 ****** They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him***. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger.

To take what chance? Do you think she was unaware of the nature of the trap?
Let’s play “if”

if she didn’t know when they caught her – on what authority would they stone her? (Because she was defiling the temple??? who is responsible for bringing her in there in the first place?, Because she broke Jewish law – well she gave her self away, quite possibly she was a prostitute, which was legal under the Roman system). So, why does she stay there after her “accusers” disappear – or why does she “a woman” answer Jesus at all? Why not just be silent and disappear like women should rather than “risk” a sentance from Jesus? – She was undeniably guilty, just no witnesses…

Let me bring the point on stronger:
If they were a mob trying to kill her, a) Why bother with the trial before Jesus and risk the wrath of the Romans – b) Why bring her to a place where they couldn’t stone her privately? – c) why did she have to be there AT ALL for the trap to work?

So, the alternative: She had enough of a brain to figure out it was a trap for Jesus at SOME point, whether she colluded with the Pharisees and scribes or was brought unwillingly at first…

If she did know the nature of the trap, why be afraid? – If Jesus says stone her – they certainly couldn’t do it INSIDE the temple. So they would have to take her outside, where the guards would arrest Jesus for attempting an execution without Roman permission. If he says let her free, whatever sin she committed is publicly to Jesus’ humiliation. Jesus gets out of it on a technicality…

Let the one of you without sin throw the first stone… (Well Jesus is sinless, so why stand there and risk the death sentence?)

I am pretty sure the situation described is extremely odd.OK, I’m a little fuzzy on what you are saying. I could see that she was rather stunned at the sequence of events.

A) She’s having illicit sex.
B) She’s discovered in the act. If she were a prostitute, which is likely, then this shouldn’t be a shock to those who “discovered” her.
C) She’s dragged into the Temple and brought before this teacher.
D) These clowns are talking of an archaic law speaking of stoning her.
E) The teachers shames the crowd of “righteous” people into leaving her alone without harm.
F) she’s probably thinking, “Does anyone have the license plate of the truck that just hit me?”

But I do find it interesting that the Church removed this story from many bibles, believing that many people would read into this that Jesus is condoning extra-marital sex.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Huiou Theou;3434145:

NotWorthy;3433985:

OK, I’m a little fuzzy on what you are saying. I could see that she was rather stunned at the sequence of events.

A) She’s having illicit sex.
B) She’s discovered in the act. If she were a prostitute, which is likely, then this shouldn’t be a shock to those who “discovered” her.
C) She’s dragged into the Temple and brought before this teacher.
D) These clowns are talking of an archaic law speaking of stoning her.
E) The teachers shames the crowd of “righteous” people into leaving her alone without harm.

No, he didn’t quite do E…
“Let the one of you without sin throw the first stone.”

“Sounds” like a condemnation – the truck just hit the first time.

A possum will stand in a headlamp for a few seconds, but not for more than a few minutes while you decide whether or not to run over it. I have tried this. In like manner, the woman has at least the intellegence of a possum – how long did it take the wise Elders to “drift away” – and then even the “dumb youngers”? Some of the bull headed young ones are reaaaalllly slow, so why is she STILL standing there dazed … the first truck has been gone long a while…

F) she’s probably thinking, "Does anyone have the license plate of the truck that just hit me

?"

And stand there on the empty highway waiting for a second one saying “hit me?”
I’ll agree – she could be dazed, but then maybe she had delusions she was God, or perhaps she was just insane… Nobody was holding her there – she was “standing” in the “middle”. The scriptures don’t even say she was “let go” – just a free standing naked woman in the temple…