Women and Ordination

[ama1234]

I have long been disturbed by the church’s tradition that prohibits women from receiving ordination. Although I have long participated in my local Catholic community, it is only recently that I have been moved to find out more about the so called logic behind such a blatantly sexist practices. Looking at this sites q&a on the subject, I was filled with such sadness and anger. The argument that Jesus didn’t choose any women apostles and thus they shouldn’t be priests is preposterous and seriously lacking in logical foundation. Who are we (the entire modern Catholic community - from the lay to the pope) to speculate at Christ’s judgement? Official church documentation states: “The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” However, more accurate would be that the Church has no authority whatsoever to NOT confer priestly ordination on women. The Catholic Church is a human made institution that attempts, to the best of its ability, to manifest and display God’s will on Earth. But how much authority does this institution actually have? Only God is all-knowing. Only God is perfect. Only God can prohibit the equal and fair treatment of women. To my knowledge, God is just. He is merciful. He is caring. To propose that such a God would shun half of His beloved children is completely ridiculous. Well… I just felt this needed to be said. Let me just end by reminding whoever/anyone/everyone that we are not here on earth to judge others. Only he who is without sin can cast the first stone. Leave judgement to God.

 

[ama1234]

I didn’t know exactly where to post this, so my apologies for posting twice…
I have long been disturbed by the church’s tradition that prohibits women from receiving ordination. Although I have long participated in my local Catholic community, it is only recently that I have been moved to find out more about the so called logic behind such a blatantly sexist practices. Looking at this sites q&a on the subject, I was filled with such sadness and anger. The argument that Jesus didn’t choose any women apostles and thus they shouldn’t be priests is preposterous and seriously lacking in logical foundation. Who are we (the entire modern Catholic community - from the lay to the pope) to speculate at Christ’s judgement? Official church documentation states: “The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” However, more accurate would be that the Church has no authority whatsoever to NOT confer priestly ordination on women. The Catholic Church is a human made institution that attempts, to the best of its ability, to manifest and display God’s will on Earth. But how much authority does this institution actually have? Only God is all-knowing. Only God is perfect. Only God can prohibit the equal and fair treatment of women. To my knowledge, God is just. He is merciful. He is caring. To propose that such a God would shun half of His beloved children is completely ridiculous. Well… I just felt this needed to be said. Let me just end by reminding whoever/anyone/everyone that we are not here on earth to judge others. Only he who is without sin can cast the first stone. Leave judgement to God.

And for the record, I wouldn’t want to be a priest either, but this does not justify any such exclusion. Also, I think it is noteworthy that nuns do not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. How would a nun’s service be any less worthy of a sacrament than a priest’s?

 

[Dale_M]

I didn’t know exactly where to post this, so my apologies for posting twice…

Yes, this is often a dilemma. The choice is important in that most people don’t read all the forums at CAF… so you will get responses from different individuals depending on where you post the thread.

Anyhows, welcome to CAF! I’m not sure if our reputation has preceded us, but we tend towards orthodox adherence to the Magisterium. And if you get into social or political topics, we skew decidedly towards the right.

I’ll say upfront that I don’t think you have to worry about anyone condemning you, but I don’t think you will get more than a couple (if even that many) people agreeing with you. Okay… let’s look at your post:

The Catholic Church is a human made institution that attempts, to the best of its ability, to manifest and display God’s will on Earth. But how much authority does this institution actually have? Only God is all-knowing. Only God is perfect.

Indeed. The Church is run by fallible humans. But if you recall, the Church was not founded by humans but by Jesus Christ. Its authority comes from Him and the Holy Spirit guarantees that the teaching of the Church will not fall into error.

Only God can prohibit the equal and fair treatment of women.

Ah, but “equal and fair treatment” does not necessarily mean identical. There are differences between men and women, aren’t there?

Well… I just felt this needed to be said.

That is fine. Everyone needs to vent periodically. Although I don’t think your post will get a lot of support here, I am glad you came and I hope you will stick around and join in some of the other discussions, too.

 

[JCismywingman]

Firstly, good post. I’ve been wondering about this question as well, as a young girl growing up, i’ve always said i wanted to be a boy, so that i could be a priest or pilot. It was innoncent and straightforward.

As i grew up, i wondered why women can’t be priests and can only be nuns who cannot administer any of the sacrements. But now i’ve come to a certain realization.

While i do agree that women are capable of carry out tasks just as men are, we are just built differently. Women generally (not making a sweeping statement here, just personal observation) are more emotional thatn the average guy. Guys are more able to detatch themselves from certain things whereas women are just more ‘sensitive’ in that sense and can’t detatch ourselves?

I for one don’t think that priests should be able to get married. Married men who really want to serve and preach can be permanant decons. In the same way, i don’t think that females should be ordained priests.

 

[markomalley]

I didn’t know exactly where to post this, so my apologies for posting twice…
I have long been disturbed by the church’s tradition that prohibits women from receiving ordination. Although I have long participated in my local Catholic community, it is only recently that I have been moved to find out more about the so called logic behind such a blatantly sexist practices. Looking at this sites q&a on the subject, I was filled with such sadness and anger. The argument that Jesus didn’t choose any women apostles and thus they shouldn’t be priests is preposterous and seriously lacking in logical foundation. Who are we (the entire modern Catholic community - from the lay to the pope) to speculate at Christ’s judgement? Official church documentation states: “The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” However, more accurate would be that the Church has no authority whatsoever to NOT confer priestly ordination on women. The Catholic Church is a human made institution that attempts, to the best of its ability, to manifest and display God’s will on Earth. But how much authority does this institution actually have? Only God is all-knowing. Only God is perfect. Only God can prohibit the equal and fair treatment of women. To my knowledge, God is just. He is merciful. He is caring. To propose that such a God would shun half of His beloved children is completely ridiculous. Well… I just felt this needed to be said. Let me just end by reminding whoever/anyone/everyone that we are not here on earth to judge others. Only he who is without sin can cast the first stone. Leave judgement to God.

And for the record, I wouldn’t want to be a priest either, but this does not justify any such exclusion. Also, I think it is noteworthy that nuns do not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. How would a nun’s service be any less worthy of a sacrament than a priest’s?

Welcome aboard!

I would refer you to the CDF document, Inter Insigniores, from 1975, which gives a lot of background to the subject.

Also, take a look at the Apostolic Letter, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, from 1994, which provides additional background and provides an “ex cathedra” infallible declaration on the subject.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful. (emphasis mine)
Since the subject has been discussed and is closed, the best action for a Catholic is to accept that fact and to understand why it is that way. There is ample reasoning behind the Church’s position on the matter…we need to attempt to prayerfully understand that reasoning.

 

[Titus]

I have long been disturbed by the church’s tradition that prohibits women from receiving ordination. Although I have long participated in my local Catholic community, it is only recently that I have been moved to find out more about the so called logic behind such a blatantly sexist practices. Looking at this sites q&a on the subject, I was filled with such sadness and anger. The argument that Jesus didn’t choose any women apostles and thus they shouldn’t be priests is preposterous and seriously lacking in logical foundation. Who are we (the entire modern Catholic community - from the lay to the pope) to speculate at Christ’s judgement? Official church documentation states: “The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” However, more accurate would be that the Church has no authority whatsoever to NOT confer priestly ordination on women. The Catholic Church is a human made institution that attempts, to the best of its ability, to manifest and display God’s will on Earth. But how much authority does this institution actually have? Only God is all-knowing. Only God is perfect. Only God can prohibit the equal and fair treatment of women. To my knowledge, God is just. He is merciful. He is caring. To propose that such a God would shun half of His beloved children is completely ridiculous. Well… I just felt this needed to be said. Let me just end by reminding whoever/anyone/everyone that we are not here on earth to judge others. Only he who is without sin can cast the first stone. Leave judgement to God.

There are 4 key arguments that swing it for me.
And may I just say first that I know this is a difficult issue that goes against normal practices. But remember, priesthood is no right, it is a gift from God through his Church. So we must all accept the judgement of the Church as to who is fitting for this sacrament.

Now my reasons for accepting this teaching:

1. The fact that Christ, at the Institution of the Eucharist on Maundy Thursday, gathered his 12 **male **apostles. This is the clearest sign as to who has the power to confect the Eucharist (the centre of priesthood).
2. The fact that a priest at the altar represents Christ and must also represent his essential maleness in accordance with Eucharistic Theology: the church is the bride of Christ, etc.
3. The fact that in the entire tradition of the Church there have been no female priests (leaving aside the possible history of deaconnesses).
4. The teaching of the magisterium, the late, great Pope John Paul II on this issue in *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

*Hope that helps.

 

[Scottgun]

However, more accurate would be that the Church has no authority whatsoever to NOT confer priestly ordination on women.

By this logic, not only can I as a layman confect the Eucharist, I can use pizza and beer to do it. I can also hear confessions and change the words of absolution to “I’m ok, you’re ok.” And when someone says they are having trouble believing the in the Trinity, I can say, “Go in peace, it’s all good.” I can also baptize in the name of the Creator, Sustainer, and Redeemer.

The first three examples are deliberately absurd to demonstrate absurdity. The last one however is real: americanpapist.com/2008/02/cdf-officially-ends-dispute-on-baptisms.html

Not judging others does not mean that we turn into Pilate ironically asking, “What is Truth?” That you consider the Church a man-made institution and not the Body of Christ is right out of the Protestant playbook and means you have gone completely off the map. Come home.

 

[puzzleannie]

it is not a Church “tradition” it is a law laid down by Christ, her founder, when he ordained only men as apostles. Since you do not accept Christ’s authority to make that decision himself, obviously you will also reject the Church’s authority to act in his name, so you will not be moved by any argument. If you want to become Catholic you accept Catholic doctrine and practice. If you do not accept, you have two choices, to continue study and reflection until you are convinced of your error, or to remain outside the Catholic Church. The Church is not a “human made institution”. It is the visible Body of Christ on Earth and as such acts with, through and in Christ.

this is in no way shape or form a social justice issue, it is a doctrinal issue, so put this discussion on apologetics where it belongs.

 

[Dauphin]

A woman cannot be ordained a priest any more than a corn tortilla can be consecrated as the Eucharist. The matter would be incorrect.

Complaining about the lack of female ordination is like a man complaining that he can’t give birth to a baby; it’s not much use. That’s just the way it is.

Fundamentally, your approach to the priesthood treats it as an entitlement - as an opportunity to exalt women and put them in “higher positions”. This is a completely backwards way of looking at it. You’ve taken a secular mindset and attempted to impose it on the Church.

The priesthood is not an exatled position that we try to attain in order to gain social status. It is instead a service to the Church of Christ - a fundamental response to God’s grace and will for our lives. It is a humbling of self to the service of God - not an exaltation of self to “rule over” people.

God elected that men should fulfill this particular role. It has absolutely no bearing on whether men and women are of equal dignity and worth; they certainly are. They simply serve the church in different ways. They submit to the will of God in different ways.

 

[Rolltide]

I for one don’t think that priests should be able to get married. Married men who really want to serve and preach can be permanant decons. In the same way, i don’t think that females should be ordained priests.

Two points:

1. The ban on the ordination of women is a doctrine of the Church. As such, it is unchangeable. Even if the pope wanted to ordain women, he couldn’t, because once a doctrine is defined by the church, it’s permanent. Other examples of doctrines would be belief in the resurrection, the Trinity, and the Immaculate Conception. Now, that said, the ordination of married priests is only a discipline. This IS a changeable teaching. Eastern Catholic priests are permitted to marry, and converted ministers can serve as married priests. Indeed, there are about 300 married LATIN-RITE Catholic priests in the US already. Among the secular clergy, married priests were permitted all the way up until about 1100 AD, at which time the discipline was changed as a reform. Some married priests were using their positions to illegally advance the position of their children, and using collection money to support high living for their wives and families. Other married priests couldn’t maintain their families, because they would have to preach in circuits around Europe and might only be home one or two days per month. Another reason why celibacy is kept today in the Latin-Rite is because an examination of the Orthodox Churches shows that married priests have not solved their own priest shortage problem, and in fact, the divorce rate for married Orthodox priests is substantially higher than the general population, due to the incredible time requirements of the job.

That said, if the Catholic Church wanted to say that Latin-Rite priests could be married tomorrow (under the normal restrictions), it does have that power.

1. There is no institution in history that has done more to promote the rights of women than the Catholic Church. Historically, Canon Law provided some of the first protections for women in the early Middle Ages. It gave them rights over their children, aided them in property-rights cases, and helped them when they were abused. It set up guidelines for marriage to ensure that women were not wrongly forced into it for political gain. Their charities took care of orphans, and aided the sick. Convents provided educational and work opportunities for women. There are a multitude of ways that the Church helped women at a time when no other institution did. These changes gradually worked their way into the various national laws of Western nations, and are today taken for granted.

 

[1234]

I have long been disturbed by the church’s tradition that prohibits women from receiving ordination. Although I have long participated in my local Catholic community, it is only recently that I have been moved to find out more about the so called logic behind such a blatantly sexist practices. .

I don’t know where you live or what your commitment to the RCC is, but if you want to attend a church with a woman priest, you might check out the Episcopal churches near you. The Episcopal service of Holy Communion is very similar to that of the RCC. When the Anglican Communion (AC) supported the ordination of women, there was the usual hue and cry and not a few clergymen and bishops left for Rome. Many of these were were retired and elderly. As far as I can see, the entrance of women into the priesthood of the AC has only helped it. They have been excellent pastors at all levels, not just in RE and ancillary roles.

Of course, the RCC doesn’t regard the AC as the ‘true church’, whatever that is, and doesn’t think that the AC has ‘valid orders’, whatever they are, tho’ there have been a lot of AC ordinations using valid ordainers (there’s something about the “Dutch Connection” that I never bothered to look up). If these things are important to you, then stay at home; if not, you might look up the ECA—the Episcopal Church of America.

 

[Rolltide]

While you consider what 1234 says, be aware that the decision by the Anglican Church to ordain women, as well as the decision of the Episcopalians in the US to ordain an openly homosexual bishop have created a denomination dangerously close to schism. 400,000 members of the Traditional Anglican Communion (none of them elderly or near retirement age, I might add) have recently asked to join the Catholic Church. Other individual parishes all over the US have broken off to join other traditions, including Catholicism. More traditionally minded US Episcopalians (who are desperately trying to hold the denomination together) are asking to join the administrative jurisdictions of Anglican bishops in Africa so as not to have to obey these new rules. The denomination is in chaos right now, and things are not looking to improve anytime soon.

 

[manualman]

Your posts opens up a different can of worms that needs to be addressed. Implicit in your statements is the assumption that the Church simply uses logic, judgement and feelings to determine what constitutes catholic teaching. While these elements are certainly involved, Catholic teaching first and foremost is based on Divine Revelation, not human intuition!

You appear to be willing to simply say “who cares” about the glaring absence of women in the ranks of the apostles. Jesus didn’t give a moments pause breaking all kinds of cultural taboos not rooted in Truth. So why would he be hamstrung by this one?

You also seem to have bought into a certain modern notion that “equal” has an equivalent definitions as “same.” Am I unequal to woman because I have no innate ability to grow an unborn child in a womb? Is the Matriarchy oppressing me in this regard? Sound absurd? I hope so.

Feminist ideology says that ‘denying’ women the ‘right’ to be a priest is an act of oppression. But consider whether the very makeup of who you are as a woman might in itself contain DIFFERENT, but equally dignified possibilities that men are not eligible for. Priesthood is not supposed to be about power or prestige. To be sure, there are priests who revel in that aspect, but they shouldn’t be priests anymore than you should. There is no lack of opportunity for leadership for women in the Church. To say so is to be ignorant of history. The hard part is in hearing and obeying the REAL voice of God in our lives and seeing the opportunities that He lays before us. Men have no edge over women in that regard, believe me!

 

[1234]

While you consider what 1234 says, be aware that the decision by the Anglican Church to ordain women, as well as the decision of the Episcopalians in the US to ordain an openly homosexual bishop have created a denomination dangerously close to schism. 400,000 members of the Traditional Anglican Communion (none of them elderly or near retirement age, I might add) have recently asked to join the Catholic Church. Other individual parishes all over the US have broken off to join other traditions, including Catholicism. More traditionally minded US Episcopalians (who are desperately trying to hold the denomination together) are asking to join the administrative jurisdictions of Anglican bishops in Africa so as not to have to obey these new rules. The denomination is in chaos right now, and things are not looking to improve anytime soon.

What you say is true, to a point. But the press handling of the AC ‘crisis’ is similar to the press handling of the RCC pedophile ‘crisis’–true up to a point, rather sensational. I would myself argue that the pedophile crisis is a worse crisis.

What may be important for Ama1234 is that her dismay at the RCC’s attitude toward women’s ordination appears to be interfering with her *own *attitude to the RCC. If she would be happier in a church which not only accepts women priests, but is ordaining quite a lot of them, and these women are appearing to be doing a very good job, then she might explore the Episcopal church near her.

 

[Jimdandy]

The best reply as to why women are not ordained priests probably won’t help your anger and frustration.

I think we sometimes forget the importance of humility and obedience-two very important virtues taught by Jesus.

Be patient, be devoted to the Eucharistic life : then knowledge will be imparted to you from the Holy Spirit.

The Peace of Christ be with you.

 

[SilentKnight]

Your posts opens up a different can of worms that needs to be addressed. Implicit in your statements is the assumption that the Church simply uses logic, judgement and feelings to determine what constitutes catholic teaching. While these elements are certainly involved, Catholic teaching first and foremost is based on Divine Revelation, not human intuition!

You appear to be willing to simply say “who cares” about the glaring absence of women in the ranks of the apostles. Jesus didn’t give a moments pause breaking all kinds of cultural taboos not rooted in Truth. So why would he be hamstrung by this one?

You also seem to have bought into a certain modern notion that “equal” has an equivalent definitions as “same.” Am I unequal to woman because I have no innate ability to grow an unborn child in a womb? Is the Matriarchy oppressing me in this regard? Sound absurd? I hope so.

Feminist ideology says that ‘denying’ women the ‘right’ to be a priest is an act of oppression. But consider whether the very makeup of who you are as a woman might in itself contain DIFFERENT, but equally dignified possibilities that men are not eligible for. Priesthood is not supposed to be about power or prestige. To be sure, there are priests who revel in that aspect, but they shouldn’t be priests anymore than you should. There is no lack of opportunity for leadership for women in the Church. To say so is to be ignorant of history. The hard part is in hearing and obeying the REAL voice of God in our lives and seeing the opportunities that He lays before us. Men have no edge over women in that regard, believe me!

Excellent post. Exactly.

1 Cor 2:11-14

“Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.”

Ama: 1 Cor 2:16

“For ‘who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?’ But we have the mind of Christ.”

SK

 

[1234]

Your referring to the ‘emotionality’ of women to defend a male clergy is the worst sort of pop psychology. Stick to ‘doctrine’ and (ab)use of the New Testament.

And while all of you have been congratulating yourselves on your doctrinal purity, you might notice that AMA has left.

 

[SilentKnight]

The implication that women are less suited to be priests because of their psychological make-up is actually rather insightful and true and no more offensive than suggesting that men are less suited to be mothers than women are for the same reason. Let’s all come to grips, quickly please, with the fact that men and women are 1) different, and 2) that’s ok.

Everyone, close your eyes, inhale deeply, and say it with me now…

We call our priests “father” for a reason. Not because it “sounds good” or because we think it might make them feel good (they can’t have biological kids and all, so let’s give em a title that’ll make then think they can anyway for warm fuzzies), but because a spiritual father is indeed what a priest is. While nurturing someone is more a female role than male, “directing” or “administrating” is generally something more masculine, not as far as “capabilities” go (men are plenty capable of nurturing and women are plenty capable of administering), but as far as orientation.

As a general orientation, men = head, women = heart. Two different and yet complementary roles with their origins in the design of God, not man.

Peace,

SK

 

[hasikelee]

I have long been disturbed by the church’s tradition that prohibits women from receiving ordination. Although I have long participated in my local Catholic community, it is only recently that I have been moved to find out more about the so called logic behind such a blatantly sexist practices. Looking at this sites q&a on the subject, I was filled with such sadness and anger. The argument that Jesus didn’t choose any women apostles and thus they shouldn’t be priests is preposterous and seriously lacking in logical foundation. Who are we (the entire modern Catholic community - from the lay to the pope) to speculate at Christ’s judgement? Official church documentation states: “The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” However, more accurate would be that the Church has no authority whatsoever to NOT confer priestly ordination on women. The Catholic Church is a human made institution that attempts, to the best of its ability, to manifest and display God’s will on Earth. But how much authority does this institution actually have? Only God is all-knowing. Only God is perfect. Only God can prohibit the equal and fair treatment of women. To my knowledge, God is just. He is merciful. He is caring. To propose that such a God would shun half of His beloved children is completely ridiculous. Well… I just felt this needed to be said. Let me just end by reminding whoever/anyone/everyone that we are not here on earth to judge others. Only he who is without sin can cast the first stone. Leave judgement to God.

I guess you believe men should get pregnant and have babies and stay at home to nurse them…

Okay, on a serious, note, what journey brought you to these feelings and conclusions? Did you see women treated poorly or unfairly in your parish? Who talked to you about these issues?

 

[grandfather]

Leave judgement to God.

After reading what you wrote and then reading the last statement above I could only laugh at the absurdity.