Women and Ordination

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The priesthood is not a vocation of power- it is one of service. I have never met a good priest who believes otherwise. I have also never met a woman who understood this, and who still wanted to be a priest.

It seems the only women who want to become priests are bitter old nuns who would make terrible priests even if they could become priests, or well-intentioned college students who don’t know any better.
 
Re: Post #40: I wish to acknowledge the teachings of Father John Wijngaards, mhm., respected author and theologian.

Unfortunately, due to lack of space, I must post this separately.

With thanks,
Triciacat
 
It would appear he had accurately foreshadowed!
Tricia, accuracy can only be judged by the reality of something happening that was foreshadowed. Since no apostolic Church has women as priests and will never have such, then St. Paul is foreshadowing no such thing. That some denominations, such as the Anglicans, have “ordained” women merely displays their further separation from the Faith - a definite example of foreshadowed apostacy.
We need to consider these verses in the proper context concerning the ancient church. For example, attendance for women was optional so if they did attend, it would have been in a social sense as well as a religious one. Naturally, there would have been a strong inclination to visit and chat (same as now! ) Paul was admonishing women to keep quiet in this respect. Secondly, they were also segregated to certain areas of the temple. Thirdly, in Jewish culture, man was the ultimate authority over his wife and children. She would defer to, and consult with, him on all matters, religious and otherwise. Under Jewish law, women could not be priests, so they wouldn’t be teachers of men.
This is generally true, except for the fact that St. Paul, in the same epistles, clearly teaches that Christians are not bound by the Mosaic Law. So, his authoritative instruction that women keep silent and be subordinate to their husbands in not a matter of Mosaic Law, but of Church authority, and thus points to the righteousness behind the Mosaic Law, which by Christians are still bound.
Quite the opposite. Jesus clearly and repeatedly upheld the religious and social laws of His day.
Not when it came to the bare letter of the Mosaic Law. This is why He conflicted with the Pharisees. Christians are not bound by the Law as law; rather, they are bound by the righteousness behind the Law - the righteousness to which the Law merely points. See Matt. 5.
Agreed, His conversations with certain women were unusual for the time, even as mentioned by the Samaritan woman herself. But, if we study what these conversations were about and note that He was giving religious instruction, we see that they were no different than those He had with men.
Actually, they were quite different than the conversations He had with men, if we note why He was addressing these women to begin with and what these women are supposed to symbolize in the Scripture passages in which they are presented. The conversation with the Samaritan woman is a notable example. She is supposed to personify the wayward and renegade dimension of Israel that made up the Samaritan nation; and her “five husbands” (literally “lords”) represent the 5 Baals that the Israelites chose over Yahweh in the days before the final destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel. What Jesus is saying is that He Himself (the Messiah of Israel) is this woman’s true Husband the Lord, i.e., the true and promised Master of Israel, which she personifies in this passage. When Jesus says “He who is with you now is not your husband,” He is referring to Himself - because the Samaritans had violated the Covenant and were cut off from the House of David, and so from communion with the promised Messiah Who would come from the House of David.

If you read the passage in context and with a mature (and Semitic) understanding, the Samaritan woman was essentially trying to “pick Jesus up” and was “flirting” with Him. She saw a lone man sitting by a well and approached him, all on her own. This was shamefully obvious behavior for the time and in Mid-Eastern culture. She was essentially looking to “catch a man.” Jesus, being fully aware of this, uses the opportunity to teach her and to make a deep statement about Israel itself, for while the Samaritans ran after other gods and were Jewish heretics, their true Lord and Husband had now come. Jesus turns the purely secular objective of this sinful woman to His advantage, calling her to righteousness and to a kind of “marital unity” that is far deeper than she ever expected. I do not recall the Lord ever dealing with a man like that.
No. You are implying that some of His very normal behaviors given the day MUST be required to have lasting significance.
Your mistake here is that you are failing to appreciate that the Gospels are not documentary accounts or video tape records of Jesus’ every-day behavior or everything He said or did. Everything recorded in the Gospels is there to illustrate a theological point; because of this, everything that we see Jesus saying and doing in Scripture does indeed possess lasting significance. That’s why it was recorded.

continued. . .
 
Because the Jews didn’t have them priestesses].
That’s largely true, but, it goes far deeper. The reason the Jews didn’t have them was because Mosaic Judaism was in accord with righteousness and the created order of God’s universe. In the Jewish understanding, “priesthood” was a dimension of fatherhood; and fatherhood included the headship of the family - the father being the head of the family, whereas the mother is the heart of the family. In this, it is helpful to realize that the Levites held the priesthood only as a punishment after the rebellion of the Golden Calf at Sinai. Before this time, the priest of a family, tribe, or clan was the presiding father or patriarch of that family, tribe, or clan (e.g. Abraham, Jacob, etc.). In the New Covenant, this original order was restored; and thus non-Levitical “presbuteroi” (“presbyters”/“elders”) - i.e., older and responsible men in the Christian community -were invested with the Christian priesthood - the fatherhood of the community. So, as with Israel of old, women cannot be Christian ministerial priests because they cannot be fathers.

It should also be noted that the reason there were priestesses in other (pagan) religions was because these other religions were not in accord with the created universe of God’s creation or geared toward the unity of a family. Rather, female priestesses were always essentially temple prostitutes who personified a certain goddess (a goddess being the personification of some created element of the universe), and these pagan religions practice ritual sex, in which the priestess served to “sexually arouse” the gods or to have sex with a male priest or ruler, who personified a male god. Needless to say, this was not very “family friendly.” There were no G-rated pagan temples. 🙂
All the priests were males. Note that Paul, in his letter to the Romans (16:1,2) says:
“I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant at the church of Cenchrae; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.”
Phoebe was a servant in Greece. Women would have been more accepted in a religious capacity outside of Israel.
Sorry, Tricia, but that is silly revisionism.*The same Paul who wrote Romans 16 also wrote 1 Tim. 2:11-12 and 1 Cor. 14:33-35, where Paul clearly says that it is the rule in “ALL the churches of the holy ones” for women to keep silent to receive instruction from their husbands. This would include the city-church of Cenchrae, where Phoebe is called a “servant.” Here, a little geography helps as well: if you look at an ancient map of Greece, Cenchrae was a suburb of Corinth, and thus part of the same, greater metropolitan church that Paul is directly addressing in 1 Corinthians 14:33-35.

Thus, Phoebe could not possibly have been a “servant” in the sense of an ordained minister; rather, as any Greek speaker knows, the term “diakonon” (“deacon”) had both a ministerial and a generic meaning for ancient Christians. Paul is using it in the latter sense in Romans 16. He is merely saying that Phoebe is a “servant” (that is, active member) of the local church in Cenchrae. This could mean that she acted in the capacity of the female “deacons” mentioned in 1 Tim 3:11, (who, as the Didache tells us, were not ordained ministers, but merely assisted the presbyters and ordained male deacons when they Baptized women, etc.) or, more likely, Phoebe was some rich Greco-Roman woman who supported the church financially, as did St. Lydia (see Acts 16:14ff). St. Priscilla or Prisca (see Romans 16:3) and many other such women. This is evidence by the fact that Paul calls Phoebe his “benefactor” in Romans 16:2. IOW, she probably owned the house-church where the Christians in Cenchrae met; and the fact that she was traveling to Rome (so as to bear Paul’s epistle to the Roman church) shows that she (perhaps with a pagan husband) was some kind of business proprietors who traveled from city-to-city, as did Lydia (a dealer in purple cloth) and Priscilla and Aquila (who ran a tent-making business). All this is abundantly clear for anyone who reads Romans 16 honestly and without a modern, feminist agenda. I again give you 1 Tim. 2:11-12. It was clearly forbidden by the Apostles for a woman to hold any kind of authoritative ministry in the Church.
They were sociologically similar (patriarchal) but religiously dissimilar. While other ancient cultures were pagan, the Jews followed Mosaic law.
This is largely true. The Celts were also quasi-matriarchal at times. But, all this is beside the point. The point is that true inspired religion was essentially different from pagan religion because true inspired religion was ordered toward the mysterious and eternal Fatherhood of God (see Eph. 3:14-15), and thus had male priests to image this Divine Fatherhood, whereas pagan religion worshipped forces of the created universe (as if they were gods), and thus had priestly ministers who imaged the qualities of these created forces, which were seen as either male (a god) or female (a goddess). The true God of Israel could not be imaged as a female, i.e., a receptive nurturer of life, since He is the initiating Creator of all, and thus a clear Progenitor and Originator of life - a role held in human and created biology by men, not by women. To depict God or His priest in a female capacity is essentially to say that God is “receptive” and “incubative” rather than a Progenitor, and thus part of Creation, rather than its supernatural Originator. This is the deepest problem with a proposed female priesthood for Christianity.

continued. . .
 
We are instructed in Scripture that we will not be of the same body in eternity (1 Corinthians 15.)
Your mistake here is that you assume that sexuality is something merely physical and incidental. Jesus we see constituted in His being Male. He is priest-as-male, male-as-priest. His maleness is not incidental to Him. Suggesting that whether a priest is a man or a woman is a superficial question implies being a man or a woman is a superficial difference with regard to the Incarnation of God, and that implies being a man or a woman is a superficial difference as such. But such is a superficial understanding of human nature, the Incarnation, and so the symbolism of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, for the Church considers it a very deep question as part of Divine Revelation.

As an Orthodox, you must believe that the Blessed Theotokos is indeed still Christ’s mother, even though she is in Heaven and thus in eternity. So, what are we to say? That she is no longer female because she is glorified? Not at all. The Blessed Virgin retains her femininity, just as Christ Himself retains His human masculinity, and just as all the other saints retain their sexuality in Heaven. It is not taken from them and they are not made neuter or literally angelic; rather, their created humanity is merely uplifted and glorified to be something greater than it was on earth. This includes their sexuality and sexual identity, which is perfected in Heaven, not obliterated or erased. In Genesis it says, “God created them, male and female.” Sexuality is something intrinsic to humanity. It is one of the things which makes us different from the angels. For this reason alone it is not taken from us in Heaven. If it were, we would no longer be human - no longer what God created us to be.
Revelation also discusses the “priesthood.” John 15:35 says, “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
I’m sorry, Tricia, I don’t follow your point. While Revelation does make mention of the priesthood, viz. the 24 Heavenly Presbyters (see Rev 5), John 15:35 is not addressing the priesthood exclusively; by “disciples,” Christ is referring to all of His followers, the entire Church. Clearly, both priest and laity must display love for one another and for all.
It is our attributes, not our gender, that Scripture places emphasis upon.
Really? Then why didn’t Jesus make His mother, or Mary Magdalene, or any of His other female disciples into Apostles? Why did He not invest any women with the priesthood at the Last Supper? Scripture says that only the Apostles were there.

What you are preaching above is a species of Donatism, and it is quite dangerous. This is because it bases all Christian authority on virtue, rather than on Christ-given ministry. Clearly, there were many times in Church history where meek and lowly laymen (or lay women) were far more virtuous and worthy than bishops or Popes, but this did not give any lay person the right to usurp the God-given authority of the clergy, nor did it give lesser members of the clergy the right to overthrow their superiors in Christ. So, personal virtue does not determine authority in Christ’s eyes. A woman can be the greatest saint who ever lived (in fact, one woman - the Blessed Virgin - happens to be just that!!), but it does not entitle her to be a priest. The Virgin Mary, for all of her greatness, cannot act in the capacity of a priest and does not possess a priest’s authority; and it is a sign of her greatness that she never desired to. I strongly suggest that you ponder that prayerfully.
Love, compassion, empathy and willingness to serve, to name a few.
None of these, on their own, can make one a priest - or a father Rather, only God can charge one with such a ministry. He does this in accord with the created order of His universe. He does not call men to be mothers; and He does not call women to be fathers or priests.
 
Re: Post #40: I wish to acknowledge the teachings of Father John Wijngaards, mhm., respected author and theologian.

Unfortunately, due to lack of space, I must post this separately.

With thanks,
Triciacat
Tricia, it’s always wise to be formed by those faithful to the Church, not by dissenters. One looks to John Paul II and Benedict XVI - and within your own Orthodoxy to such writers as these who faithfully express the Tradition:

antiochian.org/midwest/Articles/The_Orthodox_Priest_An_Ikon_Of_Christ.htm

dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/aejt_4/Nicolaides.htm

svots.edu/about/articles/deb-belonick-interview.html/

A good corrective to Fr. Wijngaards is Fr. Manfred Hauke and his work Women in the Priesthood?
 
Glory to Jesus Christ! May He Be Glorified Always!

Dear F:

I choose my reading carefully. I would much rather read Scripture.
 
Glory to Jesus Christ! May He Be Glorified Always!

Dear F:

I choose my reading carefully. I would much rather read Scripture.
Yet you chose to read and be formed in your thoughts by Father John Wijngaards. 🤷
 
Glory To Jesus Christ! May He Be Glorified Always!

Dear F:

Let’s attempt to keep this thread on topic, which is “Women and Ordination.”
 
Glory To Jesus Christ! May He Be Glorified Always!

Dear F:

Let’s attempt to keep this thread on topic, which is “Women and Ordination.”
Tricia, everything I’ve posted has been precisely on the subject - including responding to your reference to Fr. Wijngaards whose writing you find of import on the subject. One is either formed by the Faith or not - and who and what has formed one’s assent or dissent is grist for the mill.

This thread does seem to have run its course. 🙂
 
I appreciate the replies. Be assured that I have read the answers and truly appreciate the feedback… I think that on the issue of women being priests it is best to let sleeping dogs lie. I feel I have a better understanding of Church doctrine, though I still find myself in disagreement. However, I still would appreciate comments on why nuns do not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders?
Rest assured, I am not sleeping.

I truly believe that you have not read the church fathers on this topic. Have you read the teachings of the early church fathers yet? The pope clarified this already. I support this to the point that for the Church to attempt to ordain women would be proof that the Orthodox Church was right after all and therefore I would have to seriously consider Orhtodoxy over Catholicism in the Latin Rite. I firmly believe that the Eastern catholics would break and distance themselves away from Rome and seek attachment to the Orthodox Church.

Maybe you should spend more time consider what you believe the role of woman is in the eyes of God. Women have such a noble calling. It, like homosexuality, is a form of the same disordered view of male and female roles. A man attracted to men must not act upon those desires. A woman attracted to the priesthood must not act upon that attraction. You have a cross to bear. I am praying for you.
 
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