Women and the Catholic Church

[Pentecost2005]

Brendan:

That they are equal creations to men. Actually, the Catholic Church recognizes God’s Greatest Creation was a woman, not a man; Mary the Mother of God.

This is basically true.

“Actually, enlightened by divine grace and moved by affection for her, God’s Mother and our own dearest Mother, they have contemplated in an ever clearer light the wonderful harmony and order of those privileges which the most provident God has lavished upon this loving associate of our Redeemer, privileges which reach such an exalted plane that, except for her, nothing created by God other than the human nature of Jesus Christ has ever reached this level.”

Munificentissimus Deus, Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius XII issued November 1, 1950

Paragraph 14

 

[Pentecost2005]

Evanescence:

This is not a fact, merely a philosophical issue

If you don’t understand how philosophical analysis can establish facts–that is, if you don’t understand what philosophical facts are–then your ability to understand Catholic doctrine will be very limited.

Evanescence:

Is there any scripture in the bible that actually states this or is it merely catholic dogma?

“Merely Catholic dogma”? You think the Church defines a teaching as dogma just… because? To get a sense of what goes into the exercise of Magisterium in the definition of dogma–that is, how the Church goes about it–read this document carefully:

Munificentissimus Deus
Defining the Dogma of the Assumption
Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius XII issued November 1, 1950

papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MUNIF.HTM

Also this one:

Ineffabilis Deus
The Immaculate Conception
Apostolic Constitution issued by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854

papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

 

[mamabear7]

LSK:

What a great way to express it!

From a feminist perspective (yes, I am one), I believe that we (feminists) have made the error of trying to ‘build up’ women by diminishing men. That is never right.

As far as women being priests, there is not basis in Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition to support women as priests. However, I take umbrage that because I cannot be a priest that I am considered ‘less than’ the men in the Catholic Church. That is not what is being taught! I am a vital, necessary member of the Church and my role as a woman and spiritual mother to other members is one that has been honored since the model for this role - Our Blessed Lady - was created!

Now, in all honesty this role was sometimes overlooked by the people in the Church - but never by the Church herself. I credit JPII for bringing the light of wisdom back to the importance of women in the Catholic Church.

Anyone who thinks women are not valued or appreciated needs only to look at their own Parish…I will bet that Parish is ‘run’ by women!

We’re not considered “less than men” by the Church. (sorry if I misunderstood you but I think that’s what you’re saying you think) Women do an awful lot for the Church - raise holy families, support their husbands, join convents and work in schools and for the poor and sick, and even raise holy priests. (I would love to have the honor of being the mother of a priest or two) The Church has honored women for centuries - just look at St. Catherine of Siena, St. Therese, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Joan of Arc, St. Monica, and many more. St. Louis de Montfort, among others, loved Our Lady an awful lot. St. Padre Pio loved women so much that he urged them to be modest and wouldn’t put up with them defiling themselves and tempting others by dressing immodestly.

“I’ve used that approach, and they come back with “well God revealed the message of the bible to men ‘of the time’ according to the ‘customs of the time’, and of course, women were regarded as possessions back then. That is no longer the case so we don’t have to live by old testament rules in today’s time” and so on…you get the picture.” (YinYangMom)

That sounds like modernism (they did it that way back then but we don’t need to do it that way anymore), which is the synthesis of all heresies.

God came to earth as a man. God has always referred to Himself as a King and Father. God chose twelve male apostles. If He had wanted women to be priest(esses), He probably would have chosen men and women to be among the 12 Apostles.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

P.S. Women have an advantage over men during Mass - we get to wear veils and they don’t!

 

[dwc]

Now, in all honesty this role was sometimes overlooked by the people in the Church - but never by the Church herself. I credit JPII for bringing the light of wisdom back to the importance of women in the Catholic Church.

I agree with this and I would add that until John Paul II the clergy and church hierarchy did very little to discredit the common (mis)understanding that women are considered somewhat inferior by the Catholic church.

 

[Evanescence]

**Quote:**Why would the Church risk infinitely invaluable souls on such a wager??

Extremely large quantities of cash will make any church risk souls

**Quote:**Just because something is philosophical in nature does not mean it is not factual.

For example, 2+2=4 is a question of Natural Philosophy (have you ever noticed that the highest degree in Mathematics is a Doctor of PHILOSOPHY, Ph.D)

Yes but 2+2=4 is a fact and therein provable as opposed to your statement of body and soul which is merely a philosophical statement which may or may not be correct, quoting the saints or popes or yesteryear will do nothing to add credibility, did not the church put pressure on Galileo to rescind his findings on the earths orbit of the sun, quasi-religious science rarely is scientifically accurate.

**Quote:**The same is true for the nature of humanity. If ‘humanness’ is defined strictly by the body alone, that would mean that is change of body is a change of person.

Does a removal of an appendix, for example, mean a person is less of a person, or a change their haircolor, they change their personality. Other than those on cosmetic commercials, the experiantial nature of the question would be in the negative.

No obviously not, your personality is formed in your brain, if you removed part of a persons brain then their personality would be altered.

**Quote:**God obviously designed differences in the roles the sexes have in bringing forth life; do those differences extent to Ontological life"

I think I have clearly shown that, if we are to assume God is a God of equality, those differences would exist"

Just because God (if he exists and created life) mades male and female different to bring forth life, that doesn’t neccessarily mean that He/She/It would programme differences in this “Ontological” life that is merely a supposition

(post made by Mariusak from JWO here jehovahswitnessonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=6933&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75)

I would like to help these people in better understanding of the Catholic Church… I just don’t know much about this topic )

Evanescence

 

[mamabear7]

Evanescence, good luck! I don’t know how much good you’ll do if they don’t even call God a Him. (He calls himself Him over and over in the Bible.) I talked to a former JW here on CAF a few months ago and she said they’re a cult and they mess with your mind a lot.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[Petergee]

mamabear7:

God chose twelve male apostles. If He had wanted women to be priest(esses), He probably would have chosen men and women to be among the 12 Apostles.

To be advocatus diaboli for a moment,
When I say that I get the reply. “Christ chose 12 Jews as the Apostles. If the Church decided it has the authority to ordain Gentiles as well, why doesn’t it have the authority to ordain women?”

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

The huge amount of Scriptural evidence that we have in support of the male only priesthood is the fact that Jesus Himself never instituted women to the priesthood. Do you see a woman sitting at the Last supper? No, not even His own mother, and He loved her a lot. Don’t forget that the 12 apostles were also 12 bishops and those 12 bishops were also priests. Never throughout Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition do we find support for female priests, so we cannot just go and change that because we want to, even if it might increase the amount of people in the priesthood. We need to follow Christ on everything and the ‘ordination’ of women is one of those things.

 

[YinYangMom]

Petergee:

To be advocatus diaboli for a moment,
When I say that I get the reply. “Christ chose 12 Jews as the Apostles. If the Church decided it has the authority to ordain Gentiles as well, why doesn’t it have the authority to ordain women?”

The Church didn’t decide to expand the Kingdom to the Gentiles. Jesus did that Himself, while on earth and then in His instructions to the apostles when He sent them out to spread the good news. Jesus continually opened the door to the non-‘chosen’ people which raised a lot of eyebrows in His day.

Which leads me to the argument I keep getting about Jesus choosing 12 men at the time, being that He had to because it was the custom of the ‘times’ and He didn’t want to ruffle those feathers.

To which I tend to reply, ‘had to’? ‘didn’t want’? Jesus did a lot of things he didn’t have to according to custom so had God wanted him to select a female or two, he would have. We have to remember that Jesus did only His Father’s will on earth, not His own or those of his followers. He didn’t ‘want’ to begin his minstry at Canaa, but he did. He didn’t want to begin his passion that night, but he did. What we want does not matter in the grand scheme of things so we can clamor all we want about this injustice or another - it won’t do any good.

Our time is better spent trying to understand God’s ways than trying to get the Church to understand our ways.

 

[LSK]

LaSalle:

What is the belief on women in the Catholic Church?

well, the RCC officially recognises that they DO exist … yes, we do believe in women.

Our records show that they came onto the scene right after the first man!! Yes, that far back!

 

[LSK]

Petergee:

To be advocatus diaboli for a moment,
When I say that I get the reply. “Christ chose 12 Jews as the Apostles. If the Church decided it has the authority to ordain Gentiles as well, why doesn’t it have the authority to ordain women?”

I think that is a very good question!

Now, as an answer it would be that my thinking that men were given
Apostolic succession, not merely authority. Maybe that is fine line of distinction, but I think it is worth noting. The authority comes through the succession - it procees from it, in much the way the Son proceeds from the Father. The authority is a part of that succession but not separate from it. Just as the authority of a mother is distinguishable from that of a father…and yet not the same…

I am not much of a Theologian. Perhaps there is someone that could explain it better than I?

 

[Brendan]

Petergee:

To be advocatus diaboli for a moment,
When I say that I get the reply. “Christ chose 12 Jews as the Apostles. If the Church decided it has the authority to ordain Gentiles as well, why doesn’t it have the authority to ordain women?”

Because the Apostles, to whom this Authority was given, along with the Full Deposit of Divine Revelation, ordained Gentiles, but not women.

And it’s not like they would have had issues with women priests, the second Pope, Pope Linus was a converted Roman pagan, not a Jew.

He was raised in both a city and a religion that had priestess, so it can hardly be said that he had a cultural bias against women priests, it would have been perfectly normal to him.

But he, or any other Roman or Greek Pope ordained women, even though it was part of their culture. Why?

 

[Evanescence]

Sorry this question is a bit off topic…

There is huge spiritual evidence that jesus and his apostles wore very plain clothing so why do bishops wear fancy expensive robes and expensive jewellery?

Thanks

Evanescence

 

[trustmc]

YinYangMom:

While I truly appreciate how you explained that, and 100% accept and welcome the teaching…
in the back of my mind I can hear several of my non-practicing Catholic women associates saying “Well that’s because everything about the bible and the Catholic church was written by men…men who want to keep women in the kitchen and in the home, and who believe women are less than them and unworthy of being spiritual leaders”. :whacky:

How can I respond to that effectively, especially when everything you’ve explained so well and accurately still stems from man’s perspective, not a woman’s?

If you haven’t found this link already, you may want to review this April 2003 exchange in First Things.

The pro-woman ordination argument was written by a female Lutheran minister. The rebuttle was written by a Roman Catholic theologian who was formerly the first woman ordained in the Lutheran Church, and who now repudiates women’s ordination. Both articles were written by women who I assume your non-practicing Catholic associates can appreciate, and the latter does a great job refuting popular justifications for ordaining women while clearly explaining the wisdom of Catholic teaching on this subject.

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Mike