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gksaoh
Guest
. said:
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UKcatholicGuy
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UKcatholicGuy
Guest
This says it all. You don’t appear to understand the supernatural nature of the Church. The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. It’s not a social club, a business, or a social welfare organization. The Church exists to save humanity from hell, not guarantee liberal democratic rights of women or other “Enlightenment”-inspired novelties.
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GregC
Guest
American corporations recognize this principle when they appoint women and representatives of minorities to their boards of directors.
First United Church of Enron?
First United Church of Enron?
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bellesjoy
Guest
Where to begin! The first misconception with the idea that women need to be at the top of decision making of the Church has to be addressed.
You need to invert the pyramid of the Church here on earth that you have in mind with the Pope sitting at the very highest point on the top. Our Bishop reminds us in frequently that in inverting that pyramid you will find that all the faithful are truly at the top, which is quite broad. (try drawing this out on paper if it helps)
Then you will find our priests and religious directly under all of us supporting us, in great but fewer numbers, in service to us. They are our servants. They are here to help us get to heaven.
Beneath them you will find the Bishops, in even fewer numbers, who support our priests and some who teach us directly which is their primary role. They are our servants, helping us to get to heaven.
The next level under the bishops you will find the cardinals, fewer stilll, who give support to the Bishops. They are servants to us. They serve us both directly and indirectly through teaching; all in support of us gaining heaven.
At the very foundation of this structure is our Holy Father, one man chosen by the Holy Spirit to guide us. He sees himself as a servant to all of us. The burden he carries for our salvation is awe inspiring. He does this by teaching, supporting our cardinals, who support our bishops, who support our priest, who support us in getting to heaven.
How can any lay person, man or woman, not feel in a primary position to carry out the work of Christ when we have all of these good servants supporting us? The layity is where all the big important stuff happens. It is not in Rome. It is in your home, your parish, your community. The Catholic Church puts all of us at top in terms of who can really make a difference. It is you and me, male and female. Thank God for these humble and dedicated servants and pray for them. They serve us in our journey to heaven.
You need to invert the pyramid of the Church here on earth that you have in mind with the Pope sitting at the very highest point on the top. Our Bishop reminds us in frequently that in inverting that pyramid you will find that all the faithful are truly at the top, which is quite broad. (try drawing this out on paper if it helps)
Then you will find our priests and religious directly under all of us supporting us, in great but fewer numbers, in service to us. They are our servants. They are here to help us get to heaven.
Beneath them you will find the Bishops, in even fewer numbers, who support our priests and some who teach us directly which is their primary role. They are our servants, helping us to get to heaven.
The next level under the bishops you will find the cardinals, fewer stilll, who give support to the Bishops. They are servants to us. They serve us both directly and indirectly through teaching; all in support of us gaining heaven.
At the very foundation of this structure is our Holy Father, one man chosen by the Holy Spirit to guide us. He sees himself as a servant to all of us. The burden he carries for our salvation is awe inspiring. He does this by teaching, supporting our cardinals, who support our bishops, who support our priest, who support us in getting to heaven.
How can any lay person, man or woman, not feel in a primary position to carry out the work of Christ when we have all of these good servants supporting us? The layity is where all the big important stuff happens. It is not in Rome. It is in your home, your parish, your community. The Catholic Church puts all of us at top in terms of who can really make a difference. It is you and me, male and female. Thank God for these humble and dedicated servants and pray for them. They serve us in our journey to heaven.
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UKcatholicGuy
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Well said, Belles!
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Brendan
Guest
If there is, it would be hard to find her among all the ‘Catherines’ who would rather be Popes themselves.
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bellesjoy
Guest
What a great point!
The CTA movement always points to St Catherine and tries to compare themselves to her. (that in it’s self is rather presumptious!)
The difference being St. Catherine called the Pope to come back to the true teachings of the faith, not something she dreamed up and decided to demand. She wanted him to come back to Rome and continue in the tradition of the faith as it had always been.
It is not the same thing when you want to change the teachings of the Church and can’t imagine why the Pope isn’t following you.
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
and then the response by
bellesjoy
What a great point!..
The difference being St. Catherine called the Pope to come back to the true teachings of the faith, not something she dreamed up and decided to demand. She wanted him to come back to Rome and continue in the tradition of the faith as it had always been.
(Does that sound like the Tridentine, maybe?)
It is not the same thing when you want to change the teachings of the Church and can’t imagine why the Pope isn’t following you.
and then there’s the officially promulgated document of the church -
"Whereas Ordinatio Sacerdotalis , Apostolic Letter on Reserving Priestly Ordination to Men Alone, promulgated on May 22, 1994, by His Holiness Pope John Paul II, states, “But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration Inter Insigniores, which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published.[2]
2. The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church “does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination.”[3] To these fundamental reasons the document adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ’s way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: “The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology-- thereafter always followed by the Church’s Tradition–Christ established things in this way.”[4]
and
“4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
**Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” **
(bold and italics added for emphasis)
This is matter of “because the church said so”. Period. You must accept it. It cannot and will not be changed.
Blessings,
Angel
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BillyT92679
Guest
Angels Watchin said:
Both the modernists and the integrists are in error Angel. I attend the Indult Tridentine Mass, the Novus Ordo, and the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostum… But if the Bishop decides to no longer have it, I will dutifully attend the Novus Ordo as well as the Divine Liturgy.
The Novus Ordo is the normative Mass of the Church, therefore it IS our tradition.
I just think of what Our Lord said in Gethesemane, “Not My Will by Thine be done.”
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I like your wife.
One correction. While current Church law states that priests elevated to the cardinalate must be consecrated as bishops, that can be waived, as was the case with Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J. He requested that he not be required to be consecrated, due to his advanced age (he was over 80 when elevated).
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gksaoh
Guest
I think it very admirable that most American bishops have given authority to women. Two generations ago when there were an abundance of clergy, all these position were held by priests. I would hope the Vatican would give women the same positions. The sky didn’t fall when women became chancelors of diocese!
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bellesjoy
Guest
Angels Watchin said:
I’m not sure if you got the point of my arguement. I am total in agreement with the Church on the fact that there is no authority to ordain women. I have never questioned that and have always accepted as Christ’s plan for His Church.
I don’t get your “Tridentine” remark. What St. Catherine did had nothing to do with that and either do I. What she did was a great grace to the Church at the time. Are you familiar with her life?
All I am trying to say is that I am tired of dissenters from Rome using her good name to draw analogies to make their dissent seem “holy”. There is no legitimate analogy there. The post I responded to made a very good point about that.
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mosher
Guest
I guess I am young and don’t understand the older people on this topic that insist on having women here and women there. I am just glad that my generation is a little more satisifed following the guidance of the Church on this matter.
I recall in a seminary class we had a guest priest and parish administratior (being a female) give a talk to us about working with women in the parish. I would hint that both persons were of “baby-boomer” age. The priest said that we needed to be able to work with women well in the parish because about 80% of the church employees and a vast majority of mass attendees would be women. At that point I raised my hand and asked, “So, Father, what are you doing to fix that problem? It seems to me that your parish needs work in getting more participation from men, so what plan have you in place to narrow this gap?” The priest obviously didn’t have an answer and my professor an non-habit wearing sister was no pleased.
I recall in a seminary class we had a guest priest and parish administratior (being a female) give a talk to us about working with women in the parish. I would hint that both persons were of “baby-boomer” age. The priest said that we needed to be able to work with women well in the parish because about 80% of the church employees and a vast majority of mass attendees would be women. At that point I raised my hand and asked, “So, Father, what are you doing to fix that problem? It seems to me that your parish needs work in getting more participation from men, so what plan have you in place to narrow this gap?” The priest obviously didn’t have an answer and my professor an non-habit wearing sister was no pleased.
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lewlo
Guest
I agree! It just seems sooooo simple. Jesus instituted His church for us, WHY would we fight against HIS church? I know it’s guided by the Holy Spirit. I couldn’t be happier and feel more secure following what Holy Mother Church says.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Hey, hey, HEY!!! Not all the dinosaur farts on this thread support the OP’s position!!!
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ComradeAndrei
Guest
Except that He is God and He set up the Catholic Church as the pillar and foundation of Truth-therefore you can’t “shake things up” with the Church. Have you ever heard the phrase, “Rome has spoken, the cause is finished.”? Some things you just have to accept, you don’t need to question everything. Sometimes you learn a lot more by shutting up and listening. I know that I surely have.
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muledog
Guest
Mosher,
Most of the complaining/whining seems to come from those feminists who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s. You know 'em when you see 'em - they seem to wear a lot of polyester pantsuits, sensible shoes, and trim their hair with a paring knife.
They break out in hives whenever the term “He” is used to describe a member of the Holy Trinity.
They never used an “approved” breviary to pray the Liturgy of the Hours, only inclusive-language ones.
Every fourth Sunday in Ordinary Time, they find a need to change the responsorial psalm from “If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts” to “If today you hear God’s voice…” [sung to the accompaniment of fingernails across a chalkboard]
This means that they also use the Gather hymnal to sing inclusive versions of the Mass-prayers and unauthorized “tropes” of the Agnus Dei.
Most of 'em are in their 60’s and 70’s, and can usually be spotted at the local Call To Action / We Are Church / Womyn’s Ordination Conference meetings (as they say, “dissenting birds of a feather flock together”).
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Kendy
Guest
I wasn’t even born until 1979, and neither were any of the women I know. I will concede that most women of my generations are not as angry as 1960’s feminists, but that’s because we take the victories of our foremothers for granted. Go back to times when wanted ads used to specify gender, and you will have a whole lot of very outraged 20 years-old on your hands.
Kendy
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bellesjoy
Guest
I agree that a lot of the “Boomers”, especially the sisters of that era, have for years been involved in trouble making causes, such as woman’s ordination, pro-abortion, changing liturgies,etc.
Being a Boomer myself, I have been butting heads with those types for most of my adult life. I think they are finally being silenced by the youth of the Church who followed JPII into loving and respecting the Church and following Rome.
I have, however, noticed that there is an inbetween group, perhaps the ones who’s parents were the trouble makers who never bothered to educate their children or students as the case my be. That group has a large number that fell between the cracks and never really got much catechisis, at least in terms of Truth. They had those women for mothers or teachers.
We have in our parish a group of them, 30 somethings, that try to manipulate the youth ministry to teach their version of the faith. They have brought in speakers from dissident organizations, pro-abortion panels, asked a defrocked priest to teach the high school kids his twist on the faith and too much more to list.
Thankfully we have a new pastor coming in a few months and this should change, but lots of damage has been done.
Being a Boomer myself, I have been butting heads with those types for most of my adult life. I think they are finally being silenced by the youth of the Church who followed JPII into loving and respecting the Church and following Rome.
I have, however, noticed that there is an inbetween group, perhaps the ones who’s parents were the trouble makers who never bothered to educate their children or students as the case my be. That group has a large number that fell between the cracks and never really got much catechisis, at least in terms of Truth. They had those women for mothers or teachers.
We have in our parish a group of them, 30 somethings, that try to manipulate the youth ministry to teach their version of the faith. They have brought in speakers from dissident organizations, pro-abortion panels, asked a defrocked priest to teach the high school kids his twist on the faith and too much more to list.
Thankfully we have a new pastor coming in a few months and this should change, but lots of damage has been done.
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