Women clergy

[FireFromHeaven]

Why do we not ordain women? I recently heard a radio show on a nun pilgrimage asking the pope for this. They talked about archaeological evidence for women clergy in early Christianity. They also prayed to Sophia, a female attribute(??? Can’t remember how they put it???) of God. What is that?

 

[Peerce]

1 Corinthians 14:34. The church has said time and time again it doesn’t even have the authority to allow women clergy.

 

[Peerce]

1 Corinthians 14:34: “Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says”

The church has said time and time again it doesn’t even have the authority to allow women clergy. None of the believers sitting in the pews weekly would argue with it.

 

[Mike30]

Why do we not ordain women? I recently heard a radio show on a nun pilgrimage asking the pope for this. They talked about archaeological evidence for women clergy in early Christianity. They also prayed to Sophia, a female attribute(??? Can’t remember how they put it???) of God. What is that?

Sofia was considered by some, nit all, early Gnostics, to have created the Earth through a cosmic disaster or an abortion if you will. She was said to embody wisdom, and wanted to create something without a consort. Thus the earth was not created by the suprememe God but by this lesser divinity, Sofia. Gnostics generally saw the earth as an evil place where certain souls, those that had a spark of the divine in them, not everyone had this spark, were trapped.. I don’t think many people subscribe to a belief in her today.

The Church has declared, some say infallibly, others say not infallibly, that it, the Church, does not have the authority to oradin women. That is where the matter sits today.

Overall there seems to be minimal support for such a thing, although some Priests and even Bishops support the idea,

There are several places where women have been ordained, but I believe that by doing so they have become excommunicated. I would imagine that the Bishops that ordained them were excommunicated as well, butI 'm not sure on that one.

There is no scriptural or contemporary evidence of women Priests in the early Church. There was an office of Deacon for women whose main job was to baptize females. They had no liturgical function within the context of the Mass.

There were also various women who prophesized and held other positions in the early Church, but none that we can say conclusively were Priests.

 

[Peerce]

1 Corinthians 14:34: “Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says”

1 Timothy 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet”

I can’t speak for Early Christians other than to say they were really just winging it; there was little structure yet to follow. This could be an argument perhaps for other churches allowing ordination of women but it’s not going to happen in ours. The church has said time and time again it doesn’t even have the authority to allow women clergy. None of the believers sitting in the pews weekly would argue with it.

 

[Peerce]

1 Corinthians 14:34: “Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says”

1 Timothy 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet”

I can’t speak for Early Christians other than to say there was very little structure yet to follow. This could be an argument perhaps for other churches allowing ordination of women but I don’t think it’s going to happen in ours. The church has said time and time again it doesn’t even have the authority to allow women clergy. None of the true believers sitting in the pews weekly would argue with it.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Um, read my siggy.

The Church has no authority to ordain women.

The Church does not go around inventing new doctrine or new practices. The Church simply teaches, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what God Himself wishes us to know and to do.

And for the last 2000 years along with teaching us that the Eucharist valid matter is bread and wine, and not grape juice and rice cakes, or beer and pizza. .

and that the valid matter for a marriage is between one man and one woman who are free to marry. …

She also teaches that valid matter for ordination is for men, and that (I’ll repeat) the Church has no AUTHORITY to ordain women. Not then, not now, and not ever. Just as the Eucharist will never be other than bread and wine, or marriage anything other than one man and one woman free to marry, ordination will never be other than for men.

**Case closed. **
**
This teaching will not be changed because it is part of the Magesterium and because it has in modern times been restated by Pope John Paul II and acknowledged as the Definitive (i.e. authoritative/infallible) teaching by Pope Benedict.

IOW, don’t look for Pope Francis or future popes to say, “Wait a minute, let’s start ordaining women”**

 

[Angel_Bradford]

“I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful” (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II. "

Bold and underlined is mine.

While the Church has no authority to confer priestly ordination on women, the question has to whether or not the Church can confer diaconal ordination on women had remained unanswered.

 

[stlcatholic86]

My understanding is that the reason the Church denies ordination to women has to do with the fact that Jesus and his first disciples were men and thus all ordinations stem from that male line of succession. However, with that said there is defiantly some evidence that there were women priests in the early church namely starting with Mary Magdalene. There are also defiantly cases were legitimate Catholic Bishops ordained women into the priesthood, although the Holy See has been swift in excommunicating all those involved thus making those ordinations invalid.

Women involvement in the church today typically tends to be a rather contentious issue. I have recently returned to the faith after a long departure and I find that women involvement in the laity to vary from parish to parish. I would defiantly love to know more about that dynamic as I continue to a more active role in learning about Catholicism.

 

[MariaG]

The way it was explained to me is this. The priest stands in for Christ, the groom. The Church is the Bride. If a woman were to to be a priest, it would be a lesbian relationship. Unless this basic understanding of the church were to change, women cannot be priests.

I do not beleive it can or will change.

 

[seagal]

My understanding is that the reason the Church denies ordination to women has to do with the fact that Jesus and **his first disciples were men **and thus all ordinations stem from that male line of succession. However, with that said there is defiantly some evidence that there were women priests in the early church namely starting with Mary Magdalene. There are also defiantly cases were legitimate Catholic Bishops ordained women into the priesthood, although the Holy See has been swift in excommunicating all those involved thus making those ordinations invalid.

The people Jesus *specifically *called to follow him, IOW his apostles, were men. Disciples could include anyone, man, woman, or child, who follows his teachings. The women mentioned in the gospels were his disciples. Is there a tradition that Mary Magdalene was actually a priest?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Why do we not ordain women?

Several reasons. We know THAT we can’t because Christ didn’t.

The short version of the reason WHY we can’t comes down to the facts that men and women are different, priests act in persona Christi, Christ was male, and the Church is the bride of Christ.

I recently heard a radio show on a nun pilgrimage asking the pope for this. They talked about archaeological evidence for women clergy in early Christianity. They also prayed to Sophia, a female attribute(??? Can’t remember how they put it???) of God. What is that?

1. Unfortunately not all nuns are orthodox these days. The Pope not only won’t, but can’t do this. It’d be like asking the Pope to give men the ability to be mothers. Men can’t be mothers because men aren’t women, and mothers must be women.
2. The archaeological evidence thing is pretty much not true. Lots of people like to make up their favorite practices and say they found evidence that they happened in the early Church, and most of them are wrong. There were women called deaconesses, but they were not considered ordained in the same way that men were. see newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm It took some time for the words to evolve the meanings they now have.
3. If you ever hear anyone talking about “Sophia the feminine aspect of God”, that should immediately tell you that they’re wrong about pretty much everything. God is neither male nor female, but has always instructed us to refer to Him as He, and Father. God has never, ever referred to Himself as female, “Sophia” is an attempt to turn the Holy Spirit into a woman. They do this because the Holy Spirit is perhaps the Person of the Trinity who is in some sense hardest to understand, and does not have an explicitly masculine name, and so they think they can project their desires onto Him.

Don’t get me wrong - God is not male (well, Jesus is, but the Trinity as a whole is not male, and Jesus’ maleness is part of His humanity and not built in to His divinity), and both men and women are equally made in the image of God, and hence both reflect some aspects of Him, and so it makes sense to say that some aspects of God are reflected more in women and some in men. But nevertheless, God has never referred to Himself as a “she”, has never instructed us to do so, and has always instructed us to refer to Him as a He. (And there are reasons for that too - God is the originator, and is male in relation to all of creation, whereas all of creation (including men) is female in relation to Him.) So it is inappropriate to refer to God, or any person of the Trinity, as female.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

The people Jesus specifically called to follow him, IOW his apostles, were men. Disciples could include anyone, man, woman, or child, who follows his teachings. The women mentioned in the gospels were his disciples. Is there a tradition that Mary Magdalene was actually a priest?

More specifically, the Apostles were not only those He called to follow Him, but those He instructed to build and lead the Church in His absence. Both Mary Magdalen and Mary His mother had extremely important roles in the Church, but neither was an Apostle in this sense.

Sometimes Mary Magdalene is actually referred to as the Apostle to the Apostles because of her important role in telling the apostles that Jesus is risen. But that is not using the word in the same sense that we use it to refer to the twelve, and we know this because Mary Magdalene was not counted among the numbers during such things as the replacement of Judas, etc.

 

[paul11b]

It is not possible for there to be women priests, even if they were ordained they ordinations would be invalid.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My understanding is that the reason the Church denies ordination to women has to do with the fact that Jesus and his first disciples were men and thus all ordinations stem from that male line of succession. However, with that said there is defiantly some evidence that there were women priests in the early church namely starting with Mary Magdalene. There are also defiantly cases were legitimate Catholic Bishops ordained women into the priesthood, although the Holy See has been swift in excommunicating all those involved thus making those ordinations invalid.

Women involvement in the church today typically tends to be a rather contentious issue. I have recently returned to the faith after a long departure and I find that women involvement in the laity to vary from parish to parish. I would defiantly love to know more about that dynamic as I continue to a more active role in learning about Catholicism.

Show me that definite evidence that Mary Magdalene was a priest and others. Really. I’d like to know. In 56 years and a lot of study, I’ve never seen definite evidence for female priests, especially Mary Magdalen.

And a Catholic bishops cannot ordain a woman into the priesthood. They can go ahead and ‘say the word’ but the sacrament doesn’t take place. Same as a Catholic bishop could say the words of consecration over beer and pizza; doesn’t matter that he is a bishop, doesn’t matter that he says the words, the consecration will not take place.

P.S., it’s definite, not defiant. Defiant is something you don’t want to be! And I’m not playing grammar police or calling you out (I make plenty of typos myself) or anything like that, just trying to help you so that people do not get caught up in arguing over what they think you’re saying. And congratulations on your study and exploration. We really need people to get informed about the faith in this "Year of Faith’.

 

[jediliz]

In Persona Christi can not happen with women “clergy”. And Jesus did not have women present at the Last Supper.

There were “deaconesses” in the early church, but they were not ordained, they were there to help women dress for their baptisms in the early church. They were NOT priests, they just assisted with baptism.

 

[edwest2]

Here is the full answer:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

Peace,
Ed

 

[TimothyH]

1 Corinthians 14:34: “Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says”

1 Timothy 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet”

I can’t speak for Early Christians other than to say there was very little structure yet to follow. This could be an argument perhaps for other churches allowing ordination of women but I don’t think it’s going to happen in ours. The church has said time and time again it doesn’t even have the authority to allow women clergy. None of the true believers sitting in the pews weekly would argue with it.

The early Christians were Jewish and the Jews had plenty of structure to follow with regard to women.

For sixty years after the Ascension of Christ, Christians continued to offer sacrifice in the temple and adhered to most, if not all of temple judaism. Paul even offered sacrifice and went up to the temple to pray at the time of the afternoon incense. There was a clear nexus of Temple Judaism, Rabinnic Judaism and Christianity. They did not seperate immedately after the ascension of Christ.

The Levitical priesthood dated back to Moses and there were no women priests. That’s the structure. Neither did Christ choose women. That’s all there is to it.

The Church therefor has no power, no ability to ordain women. The Church could do all the rituals to a woman. lay hands and annoint with oil, and they would no more become a priest than would a tree or an automobile.

-Tim-

 

[opus101]

1 Corinthians 14:34: “Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says”

1 Timothy 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet”.

This has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[Steinway]

1 Corinthians 14:34: “Women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says”

1 Timothy 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet”

Don’t forget this whole origninal sin thing started from Adam listening to his wife.