Women Clergy

[EvangelCatholic]

I posted this question on another thread:

I hope that this doesn’t sound too pedestrian, but if the Blessed Virgin, whom Lutherans refer to as the Mother of God was with the apostles at Pentecost, as Benedict XVI reaffirmed, how can women be excluded from the priesthood?

 

[GKC]

I posted this question on another thread:

I hope that this doesn’t sound too pedestrian, but if the Blessed Virgin, whom Lutherans refer to as the Mother of God was with the apostles at Pentecost, as Benedict XVI reaffirmed, how can women be excluded from the priesthood?

By observing that Mary was not priested.

GKC

 

[MaryT777]

By observing that Mary was not priested.

GKC

Yep, simple as that really.

 

[openmind77]

I posted this question on another thread:

I hope that this doesn’t sound too pedestrian, but if the Blessed Virgin, whom Lutherans refer to as the Mother of God was with the apostles at Pentecost, as Benedict XVI reaffirmed, how can women be excluded from the priesthood?

I hope nobody minds my butting into this conversation and adding my own 2 cents about women as priests. I know the Church has its own reasons for not having women priests and in fact may claim that it has no authority to ordain women as priests. Personally I am quite sure women can be perfectly good priests and perform almost all the functions of priesthood as well as men, except for the sacrament of the Eucharist.

In the ceremony of the Eucharist, the energy of the Christ actually flows through the body of the priest into the host. Women’s body being different would actually absorb much of this spiritual energy and much less of it would pass on to the host and the wine (though some of it would still get there). Men’s bodies just happen to be better transmitters of this energy (although a mean, vulgar male priest is probably worse than many women). Except for this one function, I believe women would make as good a priest as most men (maybe even better at things like counseling).

 

[MaryT777]

The Catholic Church does not operate on the premise of
“I personally think”
It was Established by Christ and entrusted with the truth.
Therefore we don’t believe we out trump Christ and his Church in such matters as women priests.

Women can be counselors etc without becoming priests.
It would be odd to have a woman priest “step out” during Holy Communion though.
Then would a man step in?
No.
Not authorized by Christ.

 

[LisaA]

, I believe women would make as good a priest as most men (maybe even better at things like counseling).

Many Spiritual Directors are women so with respect to your final sentence, there are plenty of opportunities for Catholic women to use their spiritual gifts in this way. There isn’t enough time nor am I expert enough to clearly explain why women cannot be “priests” in the Catholic faith. But despite the stereotypes, I find the Church provides not only incredible respect and appreciation of women and their feminine nature, but they are able to serve in many capacities; religious education, Extraordinary Ministers, Lectors, Music/Choir, as Religious (you probably use the term nuns) and as lay persons.

Administering Sacraments (Baptism, Holy Orders, Marriage, Confirmation, Anointing of the Sick…) is where only a (male) Priest or in certain Sacraments a Deacon can preside. It’s not a matter that men are “better” at providing these sacraments, it’s simply not possible.

As we have many from India in this area, I am somewhat familiar with your faith. How do women serve in the Hindu faith? Are there certain areas where only men or only women are eligible?

Lisa

 

[openmind77]

Many Spiritual Directors are women so with respect to your final sentence, there are plenty of opportunities for Catholic women to use their spiritual gifts in this way. There isn’t enough time nor am I expert enough to clearly explain why women cannot be “priests” in the Catholic faith. But despite the stereotypes, I find the Church provides not only incredible respect and appreciation of women and their feminine nature, but they are able to serve in many capacities; religious education, Extraordinary Ministers, Lectors, Music/Choir, as Religious (you probably use the term nuns) and as lay persons.

Administering Sacraments (Baptism, Holy Orders, Marriage, Confirmation, Anointing of the Sick…) is where only a (male) Priest or in certain Sacraments a Deacon can preside. It’s not a matter that men are “better” at providing these sacraments, it’s simply not possible.

As we have many from India in this area, I am somewhat familiar with your faith. How do women serve in the Hindu faith? Are there certain areas where only men or only women are eligible?

Lisa

I don’t want to change the topic, but to answer your question, there is at least one school in India that I know of that trains female priests (there may be others). There is no central authority that can determine whether women can be priests or not. However, priests in Hinduism only perform ceremonial functions (administering the sacraments). So their role is quite limited compared to Catholic priests. Most Hindus would still probably prefer to use male priests in their own personal rituals.There are of course many spiritual leaders who are women and many have a large following.

 

[openmind77]

The Catholic Church does not operate on the premise of
“I personally think”
It was Established by Christ and entrusted with the truth.
Therefore we don’t believe we out trump Christ and his Church in such matters as women priests.

Women can be counselors etc without becoming priests.
It would be odd to have a woman priest “step out” during Holy Communion though.
Then would a man step in?
No.
Not authorized by Christ.

I am not sure how we can say with certainty what was authorized and what was not authorized by Jesus. After all women were not allowed to work outside the home and even own private property 2000 years ago - Jesus did not mention anything about that (At least I don’t think so). So is that not authorized by Jesus?

 

[LisaA]

I don’t want to change the topic, but to answer your question, there is at least one school in India that I know of that trains female priests (there may be others). There is no central authority that can determine whether women can be priests or not. However, priests in Hinduism only perform ceremonial functions (administering the sacraments). So their role is quite limited compared to Catholic priests. Most Hindus would still probably prefer to use male priests in their own personal rituals.There are of course many spiritual leaders who are women and many have a large following.

Not so off topic as the OP asked about female clergy in other denominations. While I realize Hinduism is a separate faith not a denomination, I still think it’s relevant to the thread. I know there are gods and goddesses in Hindusim. But I didn’t know about clergy.
Thanks for the info.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

I am not sure how we can say with certainty what was authorized and what was not authorized by Jesus. After all women were not allowed to work outside the home and even own private property 2000 years ago - Jesus did not mention anything about that (At least I don’t think so). So is that not authorized by Jesus?

Men are Priests through Apostolic Succession. Jesus did allow women to participate in His life to a HUGE extent in comparison with what was normal in the world of the Hebrew people. But he “gave the keys to the Kingdom” to Peter, not Mary. It’s very clear the role of the (male) disciples vis a vis the role of women, even though they had very important roles during Jesus’ life and the early church.

Hopefully someone with credentials can explain the male/female complimentary nature in which the Church is the Bride (female) and the priest stands “In Personae Christi.” In the place of Christ.

Again, it’s not simply authorized by Christ but elemental in that only a male can stand in the place of Christ.

Lisa

 

[Nicea325]

Men are Priests through Apostolic Succession. Jesus did allow women to participate in His life to a HUGE extent in comparison with what was normal in the world of the Hebrew people. But he “gave the keys to the Kingdom” to Peter, not Mary. It’s very clear the role of the (male) disciples vis a vis the role of women, even though they had very important roles during Jesus’ life and the early church.

Hopefully someone with credentials can explain the male/female complimentary nature in which the Church is the Bride (female) and the priest stands “In Personae Christi.” In the place of Christ.

Again, it’s not simply authorized by Christ but elemental in that only a male can stand in the place of Christ.

Lisa

Easily answered…GOD HIMSELF…set it up! Period! End of story! Last time I checked, God sent His begotten Son…not daughter! Who was the priest at the Jewish Seder meals? Men! Who did God call to the priesthood? Men from the tribe of Levi. Yes…Jesus from Melchizedek.

 

[jmcrae]

I am Roman Catholic so therefore we have no women priests of course. For those of you in denominations with Women Clergy/Pastors do you feel they are treated equally to men.

I ask this because I have read several times that there is discrimination in this way; that women are some times called to less desirable assignments/parishes men did not care to take due to location, member numbers, or other reasons.

What’s been your experience with women Clergy.

Mary.

My experience in the United Church of Canada, which has ordained women since the 1930s, was that women seemed to short-change themselves, give away their authority, and opt for part-time rather than full-time ministry.

Of course, when you’re working with people, you can’t be a clock-watcher, so the result was that they were working the same hours as their full-time counterparts, with only part-time pay and no benefits to speak of.

Because the women were more likely to be single (since there are all kinds of roles for ministers’ wives, but not much for ministers’ husbands), they were also the ones most often sent out into the wilderness to small towns and multi-point charges out in farming country - again, with part-time pay and not much in the way of benefits.

They also tended to give away any authority they had, to the point where a stranger just arriving would have trouble figuring out who was actually in charge.

I don’t know if things have changed since I became a Catholic 12 years ago, but one thing I never wanted to be was a female minister in the United Church of Canada.

A Catholic lay woman working in the Church office probably makes more money and has more authority than most female UCC ministers - not because there is anything imposed on them from Presbytry, or anything on paper that says they can’t do these things, but because, for whatever reason, they feel the need to opt out of what should rightfully be theirs.

 

[Indifferently]

I personally live under s flying bishop - the See of Ebbsfleet is basically a church within a church - and have not encountered women in priestly vestments (to my great relief). One parish I attend doesn’t even allow them to preach at Evensong or serve in the sanctuary.

 

[Domnall]

Though I’m Catholic, I’ve got a friend of mine who is a Reformed Church in America (RCA) minister. She feels that there is a lot of discrimination against female pastors. Apparently there used to be a “Conscience Clause” which allowed men to not participate in the ordination of women if they felt uncomfortable or for certain churches to avoid having female pastors.

However, she says things are improving now that the clause has been stricken.

For further reading:
rca.org/Page.aspx?pid=8531

 

[MaryT777]

My experience in the United Church of Canada, which has ordained women since the 1930s, was that women seemed to short-change themselves, give away their authority, and opt for part-time rather than full-time ministry.

Of course, when you’re working with people, you can’t be a clock-watcher, so the result was that they were working the same hours as their full-time counterparts, with only part-time pay and no benefits to speak of.

Because the women were more likely to be single (since there are all kinds of roles for ministers’ wives, but not much for ministers’ husbands), they were also the ones most often sent out into the wilderness to small towns and multi-point charges out in farming country - again, with part-time pay and not much in the way of benefits.

They also tended to give away any authority they had, to the point where a stranger just arriving would have trouble figuring out who was actually in charge.

I don’t know if things have changed since I became a Catholic 12 years ago, but one thing I never wanted to be was a female minister in the United Church of Canada.

A Catholic lay woman working in the Church office probably makes more money and has more authority than most female UCC ministers - not because there is anything imposed on them from Presbytry, or anything on paper that says they can’t do these things, but because, for whatever reason, they feel the need to opt out of what should rightfully be theirs.

’

That’s interesting; thanks for that perspective. I never really thought of a role for husbands of Pastor Wives and their role.
Peace in Christ,
Mary.

 

[ltwin]

Though I’m Catholic, I’ve got a friend of mine who is a Reformed Church in America (RCA) minister. She feels that there is a lot of discrimination against female pastors. Apparently there used to be a “Conscience Clause” which allowed men to not participate in the ordination of women if they felt uncomfortable or for certain churches to avoid having female pastors.

However, she says things are improving now that the clause has been stricken.

For further reading:
rca.org/Page.aspx?pid=8531

I wouldn’t really consider a conscience clause “discrimination.” I would consider the removal of a conscience clause as discrimination against those who can’t in good conscience participate in the ordination of a woman!

 

[4Squarebaby]

ltwin:

Quote:

In other denominations, like the Assemblies of God, women ministers are theoretically allowed to be district and national leaders. However, they have never really been elected to those positions. A couple of years ago, the AG’s General Council created a seat on the denomination’s top governing board specifically for an ordained woman.

On the other hand, one Pentecostal denomination (the Church of the Foursquare Gospel) was started by a woman, Aimee Semple McPherson.

Many women co-pastor with their husbands or work as associate pastors. Most Pentecostals don’t think twice about a woman preaching or conducting baptisms or communion. However, I think some might be uncomfortable with a woman being THE PASTOR of a church on her own.

Depending upon the organization there may be rules in place causing the main teaching elder to be called prophetess or evangelist, while the husband is the main executive and senior pastor. Also since denomination allengence is not as fixed as Catholics tend to think it is among evangelics there may be core families among a local church who will go elsewhere if a woman is the main speaker or senior pastor

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[EvangelCatholic]

I wouldn’t really consider a conscience clause “discrimination.” I would consider the removal of a conscience clause as discrimination against those who can’t in good conscience participate in the ordination of a woman!

The “conscience clause” has run out for those who are struggling with female priests in the Church of Sweden and ELCA. Disciplinary action against bishops and priests who refuse to accept women clergy occurs but I don’t think these Lutherans are defrocked.

 

[ConstantineTG]

In the Orthodox Church, while we do not have women clergy, the wives of the clergy do take central roles in the life of the parish. Most especially the wife of the priest (as opposed to the wives of the deacons and subdeacons). While they never preside in the Liturgy, they are more often than not involved in most, if not all, non-Liturgical activities of the Church. In Slavic traditions, they are called “Mother” (Matushka) the same way the priest is called “Father”. They are the mother of the parish family. In Greek traditions they are called Prebytera (female presbyters, or priestess), because they share in their husband’s ministry even though they never preside at the Liturgy.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

In the Orthodox Church, while we do not have women clergy, the wives of the clergy do take central roles in the life of the parish. Most especially the wife of the priest (as opposed to the wives of the deacons and subdeacons). While they never preside in the Liturgy, they are more often than not involved in most, if not all, non-Liturgical activities of the Church. In Slavic traditions, they are called “Mother” (Matushka) the same way the priest is called “Father”. They are the mother of the parish family. In Greek traditions they are called Prebytera (female presbyters, or priestess), because they share in their husband’s ministry even though they never preside at the Liturgy.

Some female Episcopal and Lutheran priests are also called “Mother”. The wife of a pastor is extremely important among Lutheran congregational life, as well.