Women Deacons?

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Got a question, I know ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS puts an end to women ordinations to the Ministerial Priesthood but does this also include the ordination to the Diaconate? It seems that women deacons were part of our early church history but there seems to have been a distinction between the roles the men deacons played and the roles women played as deacons. The ordination of women deacons seems to not have been to the Priestly Order.

Question 1- Can women be ordained into the existing Diaconate?

Question 2- Is there a Church teaching that prevents this and what is it?

Question 3- Is it possible for a new Diaconate level be opened to women but not on the level of the existing Diaconate, meaning they are not ordained like a man deacon?

Thanks in advance. Pax Christi.
 
shocktrooper said:
Got a question, I know ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS puts an end to women ordinations to the Ministerial Priesthood but does this also include the ordination The ordination of women deacons seems to not have been to the Priestly Order.

Question 1- Can women be ordained

Thanks in advance. Pax Christi.
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Does one need to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders to be a deacon? To my knowledge, yes, so that would mean women cannot become deacons.
 
I don’t think women can be deacons because they cannot receive holy orders.

Even if they could, I don’t think they should. There are specific roles in the Church. In my opinion, the lines that divide the priests, religious, and the laity are in place and should not be blurred. Having a woman who is able to preform some of the activities of a priest would only lead more women towards a position that is not suited for them.

Men and women have different roles in this world. It’s not a good or bad thing, it’s just a thing.
 
Just_One_Touch said:
Does one need to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders to be a deacon? To my knowledge, yes, so that would mean women cannot become deacons.
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I know there is an ordination but it is just to the diaconate. When a deacon becomes a priest, he needs to be ordained as a priest. With this being the case, there seems to be a tier to the ordination process and a separate ordination for each level. I don’t remember reading anything about a woman not being able to receive holy orders, but only that she can not be ordained into the ministerial priesthood. What orders do “Holy Orders” cover? Does it cover the “permanent deacon” and if so, where is the Church teaching that makes this clear because ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS does not mention anything about the diaconate nor Holy Orders? It simply mentions the Ministerial Priesthood. Is the diaconate, including the permanent diaconate, part of the Ministerial Priesthood and where is this taught in the Church?

Pax Christi.
 
shocktrooper said:
I know there is an ordination but it is just to the diaconate. When a deacon becomes a priest, he needs to be ordained as a priest. With this being the case, there seems to be a tier to the ordination process and a separate ordination for each level. I don’t remember reading anything about a woman not being able to receive holy orders, but only that she can not be ordained into the ministerial priesthood. What orders do “Holy Orders” cover? Does it cover the “permanent deacon” and if so, where is the Church teaching that makes this clear because ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS does not mention anything about the diaconate nor Holy Orders? It simply mentions the Ministerial Priesthood. Is the diaconate, including the permanent diaconate, part of the Ministerial Priesthood and where is this taught in the Church?

Pax Christi.
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Holy Orders include the episcopate (bishops), the presbyterate (priests), and the diaconate (deacons, transitional and permanent) with the fullness of the priesthood being held by the bishop. Holy orders are a mater of participation in the priestly ministries with the episcopate and the presbyterate being grades of the ministerial priesthood and the deaconate being a ministry of service to assist the priests and bishops, they are integrally connected and can not be separated into this or that order, they are all Holy Orders. This can be found in canon law, canons 1008 - 1054.
 
DCNBILL said:
Holy Orders include the episcopate (bishops), the presbyterate (priests), and the diaconate (deacons, transitional and permanent) with the fullness of the priesthood being held by the bishop. Holy orders are a mater of participation in the priestly ministries, they are integrally connected and can not be separated into this or that order, they are all Holy Orders. This can be found in canon law, canons 1008 - 1054.
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Thanks, Bill. It seems that Canon Law can change though (or am I wrong?); Is this part of Canon Law that can’t change and is there a Church document outside Canon Law that makes the same claim and has higher authority? Also, the Lector and Acolyte offices seem to have been somewhat pulled from the priestly ministries and relegated to lay people that are temporarily installed. Can something similar happen with the diaconate as a whole and opened to women? We have already kind of seen this happen since most lectors, altar servers and acolytes in my parish are female. These used to be an all male office across the board. I know that these are not officially and permanently installed individuals so the office they partake in is not really their office.

Can you please shed light on my further questions?

Pax Christi.
 
No women can not be decons. There is acase of a women in the New testement being referred to as a deconess, however, in todays terminology we would call her a NUN. Her role would be that of a religious sister today.
 
shocktrooper said:
Thanks, Bill. It seems that Canon Law can change though (or am I wrong?); Is this part of Canon Law that can’t change and is there a Church document outside Canon Law that makes the same claim and has higher authority? Also, the Lector and Acolyte offices seem to have been somewhat pulled from the priestly ministries and relegated to lay people that are temporarily installed. Can something similar happen with the diaconate as a whole and opened to women? We have already kind of seen this happen since most lectors, altar servers and acolytes in my parish are female. These used to be an all male office across the board. I know that these are not officially and permanently installed individuals so the office they partake in is not really their office.

Can you please shed light on my further questions?

Pax Christi.
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Canon Law has been refined but a radical change such as you suggest would be very unusual. Note that the installed offices of lector and acolyte do still exist and are still conferred only on males (this is part of the steps toward the diaconate as well). Note as well these positions are not a part of Holy Orders. Lay readers and servers who are not officially installed, substitute for the lack of installed members performing these ministries. Since there is not a lack, but an increase of men studding for the permanent diaconate, I would not envision any change such as you are suggesting anytime in the near future.
 
shocktrooper said:
Got a question, I know ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS puts an end to women ordinations to the Ministerial Priesthood but does this also include the ordination to the Diaconate? It seems that women deacons were part of our early church history but there seems to have been a distinction between the roles the men deacons played and the roles women played as deacons. The ordination of women deacons seems to not have been to the Priestly Order. ti.
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yes and yes
OS means no women admitted to the sacrament of holy orders including the diaconate
the role of deaconess in the early church comes closest to what I & the sponsors do in helping prepare catechumens and accompany them at baptism and was not in any way shape or form preceded by ordination to priestly orders, although they may, like me and my colleagues, have been formally commissioned by the bishop for their ministry
 
DCNBILL said:
Since there is not a lack, but an increase of men studding for the permanent diaconate, I would not envision any change such as you are suggesting anytime in the near future.
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I don’t know if you left this open ended on purpose but would it be possible to open the “permanent diaconate” to women?

Again, thanks for the help. I am just trying to find the lines I need to know about so that I never cross them.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
No women can not be decons. There is acase of a women in the New testement being referred to as a deconess, however, in todays terminology we would call her a NUN. Her role would be that of a religious sister today.
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Thanks, Scott. I agree with you. I am just trying to unblur the lines in my thinking.

Pax Christi.
 
Clearly we do see women as deacons in the early Church, but what we don’t see is any of them ever receiving the imposition of laying on of hands from the Apostles or the successors in the manner of Stephen, Nicanor, etc… Not saying that it never happened, but I doubt these Jewish men would have done such. And not to sound patriarchal, but the office of deacon in the Church at that time doesn’t necessarily equate to the sacrament of Holy Orders, which the deacon eventually became a part of.

I recently wrote an article relevant to this subject that might interest you at:
God Bless!
 
puzzleannie said:
yes and yes
OS means no women admitted to the sacrament of holy orders including the diaconate
the role of deaconess in the early church comes closest to what I & the sponsors do in helping prepare catechumens and accompany them at baptism and was not in any way shape or form preceded by ordination to priestly orders, although they may, like me and my colleagues, have been formally commissioned by the bishop for their ministry
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Thanks, puzzleannie. And thank you for the service you give to our Lord.

Pax Christi.
 
shocktrooper said:
I don’t know if you left this open ended on purpose but would it be possible to open the “permanent diaconate” to women?

Again, thanks for the help. I am just trying to find the lines I need to know about so that I never cross them.
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Men are the only ones allowed to receive Holy Orders, the permanent diaconate is a grade of Holy Orders, so it would seem that the answer would be no.
 
yosephdaviyd said:
Clearly we do see women as deacons in the early Church, but we we don’t see is any of them ever receiving the imposition of laying on of hands from the Apostles or the successors. Not saying that it never happened, but I doubt these Jewish men would have done such. And not to sound patriarchal, but the office of deacon in the Church at that time doesn’t necessarily equate to the sacrament of Holy Orders, which the deacon eventually became a part of.

I recently wrote an article relevant to this subject that might interest you at:
God Bless!
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This is actually not the case. We see women deaconess in the early Church, which had a particular ministry of its own apart from the office of deacon.
 
yosephdaviyd said:
Clearly we do see women as deacons in the early Church, but we we don’t see is any of them ever receiving the imposition of laying on of hands from the Apostles or the successors. Not saying that it never happened, but I doubt these Jewish men would have done such. And not to sound patriarchal, but the office of deacon in the Church at that time doesn’t necessarily equate to the sacrament of Holy Orders, which the deacon eventually became a part of.

I recently wrote an article relevant to this subject that might interest you at:
God Bless!
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Thanks, David. I will read your article in just a bit. I have been reading up on this for some time and agree with the arguments put forth here. What lead me to this question is finding a book “Ordained Women in the Early Church” by Kevin Madigan and Carolyn Osiek in my Church’s future library. I asked the DRE if I could take it and read it since I thought it had no place in the library of a Catholic Church parish. After reading the book, I was quite intrigued though I was not convinced. The book basically lays out all the documentary history that we have pertaining to women deaconesses and what their roles were. The primary roles seemed to be assisting in the baptism of women and heading a monastery and overseeing other religious females consecrated to the Lord. However, there were many references that could go either way regarding their ministerial or liturgical roles. The authors, of course, took this to their advantage to point out that the possibility of these deaconesses partaking in liturgical worship was more than likely. It also seemed that the documents that had this vague understanding were concerned with Christians that were likely schismatic or heretical.

ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS was published in 1994 and this book was published in 2005. I just wonder why this book, written by a sister of the Church, would have been inked if there was submission to Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter. It seems like the project would have been terminated knowing the Church’s official stance. Does anyone think this book should be permitted in the parish library? I think it could give readers a very false idea of where the Church stands on this.

Pax Christi.
 
DCNBILL said:
In terminology, you mentioned women deacons, it is actually women deaconess which is a distinct thing from a deacon.
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Oh, ok - Thanks! I don’t make that distinction in office really - seems to me to be a gender distinction there, for, certainly a man will never be a deaconess or a priestess.

David
 
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