Women for Faith & Family and Marginalizing Infertile Women

[lizaanne]

Kage, when people cannot have any children, you are either viewed as perpetually contracepting or sterile (either medically sterilized, or naturally sterile ie infertile.) What other option would you be viewed as?

Infertility IS a stigma. I walk into a catholic church I am either viewed as a contraceptor or infertile. Either way I am PHYSICALLY viewed as something different, odd, not normal, bad even (if they wrongfully suspect contraception.) If that isn’t something branded on a person I don’t know what is.

I still agree with miserissima, infertile women ARE excluded in that statement. Whether they meant to or not, we don’t know. As is, it is certainly questionable.

Wow. I was previously in an 11 year invalid “marriage”, and are now truly married for two and a half years. Since I was 25 years old (I’m 44 now) I’ve been infertile, and I’ve been in more Catholic Churches than I can count. Never once did I EVER feel that anyone was looking at me and viewing me a as a contraceptor, odd, or not normal. Either I’m totally naive or I just don’t happen to be around those type of people. I suspect that what you perceive is more an internal issue than what people are really thinking about you. Honestly - the vast majority of people have better things to do than think about your, mine, or anyone else’s fertility.

To say that anyone is excluded ONLY because they are not explicitly INCLUDED is ridiculous. Why should any organization have to list every possible permutation of condition to make sure that everyone feels included? That is insane, and a perfect example of today’s society’s entitlement mentality - I must be included, don’t forget about me, because I’m entitled to be remembered too! Please. Must we really wave the pom poms all the time to be noticed? Can’t we just accept God’s will and not have to make a big deal about it?

Look at their statement and see how you ARE included, as aurora pointed out SO beautifully!!! Not look for ways to point out how we are excluded.

~Liza

 

[Jennifer_J]

Please tell m where I defamed them. I came with an opinion and preambles such as, “It seems…” and asking IF I should contact them. I was looking for feedback. I NEVER said WFF is intentionally marginalizing or insulting infertile women. I am going to ask you not to attak ME that way. If you suspect that I am “defaming,” then please tell me how when I simply pointed out things that have been neglected, possibly by oversight, and not maliciously. I had written a short expository essay with prayer and reflection.

You came on to a site that isn’t theirs, posting about them and have you EVER contacted them? Have you EVER given them a chance to explain or change? If you came on here and said “Jennifer J said this and this and this and isn’t she just a horrible person for thinking this…” That would be defamation. You are leveling charges against them–that they are leaving out infertile women. You came on VERY strongly in your OP. I’ll ask again, have you contacted them with your concern? It seems only fair that you do this before talking badly about them publically. They are a fine apostolate that survives on a shoe string budget. They deserve the benefit of the doubt and a chance to explain.

 

[kage_ar]

Kage, when people cannot have any children, you are either viewed as perpetually contracepting or sterile (either medically sterilized, or naturally sterile ie infertile.) What other option would you be viewed as?

Infertility IS a stigma. I walk into a catholic church I am either viewed as a contraceptor or infertile. Either way I am PHYSICALLY viewed as something different, odd, not normal, bad even (if they wrongfully suspect contraception.) If that isn’t something branded on a person I don’t know what is.

I still agree with miserissima, infertile women ARE excluded in that statement. Whether they meant to or not, we don’t know. As is, it is certainly questionable.

From the experience of my life as well as working within the disability community, I know how easy it is to assume that one’s disability means far more to those around you than it actually does. It is easy to look at everything through the perspective of the disability.

When I was young, every time I had a disagreement with my boyfriend I thought it was because of my disability. Over the years, I have come to know that to most people my disability does not matter one whit. To the few who do stare and point, it is from their own ignorance, not because I am less of a person.

Reproductive issues are a disability of a different stripe. In most cases, one does not discover them until adulthood. Where those who are born with a disability have years to come to terms with the difference, those who are disabled later do not have that head start.

Take my word for it, give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Miserissima]

You came on to a site that isn’t theirs, posting about them and have you EVER contacted them? Have you EVER given them a chance to explain or change? If you came on here and said “Jennifer J said this and this and this and isn’t she just a horrible person for thinking this…” That would be defamation.

Where on earth did I imply that they were horrible? Let’s me respond to that below.

You are leveling charges against them–that they are leaving out infertile women.

They did. They included all walks of life for women, except those who are unable to conceive. Childbearing is the “qualifier” for a capacity for a host of spiritual gifts. Where was I not clear? I find that statement in particular is flawed theology as well as hurtful to those who ARE women for faith and family who are not able to conceive. Now, how is that attacking them?

You came on VERY strongly in your OP.

Strongly, as in well-thought out? Trotting out references, and not strikinging out viscerally, but writing coherently, making point-by-point statements with support for my thesis? Good! I hope it made people exercise their critical thinking skills, as it did mine – not just shooting from the hip with an emotional, heated reaction to an incredibly sensitive topic. I expected more of the same consideration, frankly.

I’ll ask again, have you contacted them with your concern?

(Emphasis of your quote is mine.) If I had already contacted them, would I ask here if anyone thinks I should? Which, ahem, I DID [here](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/Strongly, as in well-thought out? Trotting out references, and not strikinging out viscerally, but coherently, making point-by-point statements with support for my thesis?), ([post number 6](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/Strongly, as in well-thought out? Trotting out references, and not strikinging out viscerally, but coherently, making point-by-point statements with support for my thesis?)), which is why I did NOT respond to your question, because it was inherently obvious in that particular post. Did you miss it? Don’t ask me again for a third time, as it’s already been answered – much earllier than when you asked.

It seems only fair that you do this before talking badly about them publically.

Whoah! Asking in my OP if anyone else took it as sensitively as I did is “talking badly?” Oh, please. Critically examining their affirmations with God-given gifts of rationalizing is in no way defaming someone. Second-guessing someone else’s rationale, no matter how noble the intent, is NOT defamation. If I came here and crowed, “WFF Hates Infertile Women Because They’re Excluded!” then I would most certainly be attacking them, which I did not, and am not.

They are a fine apostolate that survives on a shoe string budget. They deserve the benefit of the doubt and a chance to explain.

They are a fine apostolate. I didn’t say otherwise. I am beginning to think you’re incredibly defensive because you’re personally involved, and I ask you to re-read my posts with the spirit and intention with which they were posted – not what you are biasedly assuming.

Ultimately, I did not talk “badly” about them. For every counter-point to my initial post, I clarified my thesis or expounded upon an idea with references. I did so coherently, without personal attacks against or second-guessing the the poster, her situation, or motivation for posting. No one who agrees with me has found fault with the apostolate itself, and no one who disagrees with me has been so rude as to ask questions which have already been answered. (I even took the time to read each post, as you demonstrated above, you did not.)

I pointed out what I thought was an error an enumerated reasons why – reasons beyond the personal realm. Let’s keep the level of discourse up, in this thread, shall we?

 

[Jennifer_J]

I’m not personally involved in WFF, however I do contribute to the fine apostolate and am glad they are upholding the family and Catholic women.

Women for Faith & Family
PO Box 300411
St. Louis, MO 63130
Phone 314-863-8385 · Fax 314-863-5858
wf-f@wf-f.org

I encourage you to bring your concerns to their attention.

Perhaps you could suggest a wording for the first article that you feel would be more inclusive. I’m sure they did not intentionally try to slight you or any other infertile woman. This is what has me defending them–that you assume they did it on purpose–that’s how you came across.

 

[tinalewis]

Infertility IS a stigma. I walk into a catholic church I am either viewed as a contraceptor or infertile. Either way I am PHYSICALLY viewed as something different, odd, not normal, bad even (if they wrongfully suspect contraception.) If that isn’t something branded on a person I don’t know what is. .

My heavens! I’ve never felt stigmatized because I’ve never been pregnant. Children are a blessing, not a right. I seriously doubt anyone at my church has ever wondered if I used contraception or was infertile. Other than my mother (she did want to be a grandmother), no one gives a minute’s thought about my fertility or infertility. How do I know that to be the case? Because I don’t give anyone else’s fertility or infertility a moment’s thought. I wonder about other women’s stress levels, if they’re happy, if their family is doing OK, whether or not they’ll lose their jobs in this ecomony, whether they’re sick or not, whether they can pay their rent or mortgage, if they’re registered to vote, etc. I can’t imagine concnetrating on anyone’s reproductive orgrans except my husband’s.

I thank God for every minute of my life, especially this past year that I’ve been blessed to be Catholic.

 

[tinalewis]

Oops - sorry, one more point.

I absolutely do not consider myself in any way disabled.

 

[Convert_in_99]

From the experience of my life as well as working within the disability community, I know how easy it is to assume that one’s disability means far more to those around you than it actually does. It is easy to look at everything through the perspective of the disability.

When I was young, every time I had a disagreement with my boyfriend I thought it was because of my disability. Over the years, I have come to know that to most people my disability does not matter one whit. To the few who do stare and point, it is from their own ignorance, not because I am less of a person.

Reproductive issues are a disability of a different stripe. In most cases, one does not discover them until adulthood. Where those who are born with a disability have years to come to terms with the difference, those who are disabled later do not have that head start.

Take my word for it, give people the benefit of the doubt.

I try to Kage, honest I do. But I have multiple disabilities. If it’s not one thing I feel its the other. I’ve gotten more strange looks, negative comments, and people ignoring me and walking the other way from infertility than any of my other issues. When the church proclaims from the rooftops that the purpose of marriage is for the good of spouses AND children and never separates the two. You really just feel like a walking freak show. It’s like if the church were to proclaim that a body has two arms and two legs and they kept beating you over the head with that knowledge, if you were unfortunate to only have one arm or leg, or worse, no arms and/or no legs, you’d begin to feel awkward, a living contradiction to what the church professes to be true.

When I go to mass it is just hubby and I. I do not have a protruding belly, or a trail of little ones following me. Most every other couple does who is married and not older or elderly. I stand out. Why doesn’t convert have children. Gee and she’s been here three years, who knows how long they were married before THAT. Obviously somethings up. Gee I hope they aren’t contracepting. Maybe I should talk to them about that. If they aren’t thinking that then they are thinking, the poor dears can’t have any children. What a shame. It’s judgment or pity. It is something totally different awkward, freakish.

Even St. Elizabeth said in the gospel of Luke. “God saw fit to take away my SHAME before (among) men.” Shame. It IS shame. Especially when everything around you is boldly proclaiming the opposite. Marriage and children, children, children. 90% of the world can have a child. Of the 10% that can’t, 7-8% can through treatment. So being 2-3% is far from easy. It is shameful and horrid. It is isolating and lonely. It is worse than physical disabilities because it encompasses much more than just pain and being different. It is a whole body experience, even social and spiritual. I know because I have both.

I am not going to convince anyone here otherwise. But I do feel the need to defend myself and others carrying this very lonely, heavy cross. I’m tired of being left out of everything church. I’m tired of having to bow my head in shame as I walk through the church doors. I’m just tired of being different. I’ve been different all my life due to physical and mental disabilities. Now this. It’s just one thing too much, and such a heavy thing at that. I carried my other crosses well, but this one is too much. And there is no support anywhere in my church for it. I’m called to suck it up and move on with life while there are hundreds of organizations, groups and clubs geared towards families with children, mothers with children, and on and on. They get support, but they aren’t different, isolated, in need of support. I being one of the very few, being different and isolated get NO support. Nothing. Why is that?

I can see why this article would feel like just one more place where the OP wasn’t included in her previous state of infertility. One more place where you are the one who is different excluded, but needing far more support than those who are included because YOU are the one who is different. Not them. People have babies, there’s nothing different about that in which people should get support groups when there’s nothing for those who ARE different.

 

[kage_ar]

A bit of a note, the reason that scripture uses the term “shame” in association with those who did not bear children is because in that day and age it was considered punishment for sin to be unable to have children. The Church does not teach that and Catholics do not believe that infertility or any other disability is punishment for sin.

Perhaps you live in a Parish that is very different than those I have experienced.

There are two things that will exclude one from groups in the Parishes I have been to. Gender (men cannot join women’s clubs, women cannot join those for men) and age (one might be too young or too old for a certain group). In no parish have I ever seen or read of any group that says one cannot join if they do not have children. There are a few “adults only” events or classes.

It is shameful if you are excluded from groups because you are not a parent. Do not assume the rest of the church is engaging in these practices, or that this is acceptable. Please, write to your Pastor and to the Family Life office of your Diocese to get these practices changed. Document dates and times, and which groups said you cannot come because you are infertile. That is simply outrageous.

 

[Convert_in_99]

A bit of a note, the reason that scripture uses the term “shame” in association with those who did not bear children is because in that day and age it was considered punishment for sin to be unable to have children. The Church does not teach that and Catholics do not believe that infertility or any other disability is punishment for sin.

Perhaps you live in a Parish that is very different than those I have experienced.

There are two things that will exclude one from groups in the Parishes I have been to. Gender (men cannot join women’s clubs, women cannot join those for men) and age (one might be too young or too old for a certain group). In no parish have I ever seen or read of any group that says one cannot join if they do not have children. There are a few “adults only” events or classes.

It is shameful if you are excluded from groups because you are not a parent. Do not assume the rest of the church is engaging in these practices, or that this is acceptable. Please, write to your Pastor and to the Family Life office of your Diocese to get these practices changed. Document dates and times, and which groups said you cannot come because you are infertile. That is simply outrageous.

:hug1: Aww thanks Kage! It’s not that anyone has said ‘no I can’t join’ well there was one but that’s another story. It’s just that the majority of groups in our parish and diocese and in my old one too are groups for mothers and children or parents. I probably COULD join, but what would be the point? Ya know? There just aren’t any groups FOR infertile women. There are groups for mothers of many, mothers of small children, parenting groups, pregnant mothers, groups for grandparents and the occasional miscarriage support group. But they wouldn’t LET me join and it was the closest thing to infertility support I have seen yet in my church. They also have groups for singles, those discerning the religious life and even a homosexual support group (to help them cope with this in a catholic manner).

So all aspects of sexuality and marriage and children are included. So, then, why aren’t there any groups or organizations specifically FOR infertile persons? Why do they have everything in regards to marriage, parenting and sexuality, and living chaste when single, even vocations, everything SAVE groups for infertile persons. It’s just hurts so much to be excluded in that way.

 

[Convert_in_99]

My heavens! I’ve never felt stigmatized because I’ve never been pregnant. Children are a blessing, not a right. I seriously doubt anyone at my church has ever wondered if I used contraception or was infertile. Other than my mother (she did want to be a grandmother), no one gives a minute’s thought about my fertility or infertility. How do I know that to be the case? Because I don’t give anyone else’s fertility or infertility a moment’s thought. I wonder about other women’s stress levels, if they’re happy, if their family is doing OK, whether or not they’ll lose their jobs in this ecomony, whether they’re sick or not, whether they can pay their rent or mortgage, if they’re registered to vote, etc. I can’t imagine concnetrating on anyone’s reproductive orgrans except my husband’s.

I thank God for every minute of my life, especially this past year that I’ve been blessed to be Catholic.

First of all congratulations on entering the church! I did so myself 10 years ago in June.

Second, I am happy that infertility is not a cross or a struggle for you. Some people are blessed to not suffer from its physical, emotional, social and spiritual effects. Just like some persons with a chronic illness or disease are blessed to have the strength to not give it a moment’s notice save the basic care of the illness/disease. But, most people with chronic illness have some effect from it rather than just the illness itself. So too with infertility, many persons, especially the wives struggle greatly with at least one if not all of the effects. It is a disability in that you are NOT able to do something that most everyone else can do with little or no effort. And many women who suffer from infertility go through emotional and social stress EQUAL to those who have cancer! I kid you not. Do the research it’s there. So, I and others who do have suffering in the midst of their infertility are certainly among the majority of infertile women.

 

[Miserissima]

So, then, why aren’t there any groups or organizations specifically FOR infertile persons?

There are a few out there, even smaller than WFF. Try Hannah’s Tears:
hannahstearsinfertilitysupport.blogspot.com/

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts here, for the warmth and sharing of personal info which no one needed to, and for everyone here who is a mother according to this (because it helped so much for such a long time):

Every Woman is a Mother

Every woman is a mother when she
folds her hands in prayer for a child.

Every woman is a mother when she
feeds one when he’s hungry,
clothes him when he’s cold,
or holds him when he’s scared.

Every woman is a mother when she
listens to his hopes and dreams,
and tells him the world needs who he is.

Every woman is a mother when she
smiles as a child walks by,
or cries when she knows just one child
is crying somewhere in the world.

The conception for this woman becoming a mother
takes place in her heart,
and the delivery comes through her hands.

Every woman carries the ability and power
to change the world one child at a time.

This birth is not measured in months,
but spans her lifetime.

Every woman is a mother when she
makes a difference in just one child.

copyright 1999 Janice Asien LaRosa

 

[maryjk]

So all aspects of sexuality and marriage and children are included. So, then, why aren’t there any groups or organizations specifically FOR infertile persons? Why do they have everything in regards to marriage, parenting and sexuality, and living chaste when single, even vocations, everything SAVE groups for infertile persons. It’s just hurts so much to be excluded in that way.

So, start one. Really. This means a lot to you. As I read your posts, I know you are speaking from your heart. I am sure there are others at your parish, that feel the same way. They are just waiting for someone to stand up and say, “yes, I will start a support group.”

Generally groups are started by the people that care. I have a disease, that anywhere else, there would be a support group. Not here. So two years ago, I started one. We now meet every month, and we all have a great time. We have scheduled speakers for the group and even had a Christmas party. I saw the need and filled it.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

As a woman with a physical condition that sets me apart from every other woman in my Parish, heck every other woman in my Diocese, should I be offended that my differences are not specifically addressed by Women of Faith and Family?

I accept that my body is different. That does not separate me from my sisters in Christ, we are all one body. Fertile, infertile, black, white, asian, hispanic, fat, thin, tall, short, pretty and ugly - all one body in Christ. We need to stop putting up divisive lines and become Catholic - Universal!

Amen, sistah!

I’m minded of something in St. Edith Stein’s “Woman”, where she said something to the effect that while a woman’s primary vocation is motherhood, this doesn’t necessarily equate to physical child-bearing or even to being, say a teaching Sister working with kids, but rather that, whatever role a woman takes in life, she should approach it with a sense of nurturing, whether she’s a teacher or a doctor or a lawyer or what have you. (That’s a heavy paraphrase, but I read the passage during an especially trying moment in life when I had a unintentionally rude co-worker asking me constantly when I was going to have kids -.- )

 

[aurora77]

The highlighted portion literally says that our own childbearing endows us with the capacity for maternal values.

See, I think this is a matter of interpretation. I took this to mean that women, through their potential to have children, are endowed with certain qualities. Not the act of childbearing being the determining factor, but rather that specialness that makes us women, whether we have children or not.

 

[aurora77]

Children are a blessing, not a right.

That is a brilliant statement!

 

[Litcrit]

Both men and women, as adult Christians, are called to help / nurture / raise the weaker / less fortunate / younger towards God. Both men and women are thus called to motherhood / fatherhood in the widest possible meaning of the word, right?

God is the most nurturing Person in existence, and He is our loving Father!

What I have a personal problem with (my own problem, no one else’s, I admit: I do have personal issues) is defining women through their potential for gestating and giving birth by usually wonderful / respectful / admiring people in the Church. Somehow, I don’t appreciate being AT ALL TIMES praised for / admired for / defined by an involuntary biological function (an awesome priest in my parish goes into ecstatically poetic hymns to womanhood and motherhood and the miracle of creating new life - I love and respect him greatly, but… you know…).

If someone *only *and *solely *focused on the ability to produce sperm and inseminate a woman as the defining characteristic of men and praised them for it, wouldn’t that sound strange, in the least? Wouldn’t it even sound somewhat strange if someone defined the sole function of men in the Church as fatherhood - although there are unmarried men, infertile men, monks (brothers) etc.?

I just don’t understand it. Maybe it’s different in your culture, but over here women are seen and praised and defined as mothers, and men are just men.

 

[Miserissima]

See, I think this is a matter of interpretation. I took this to mean that women, through their potential to have children, are endowed with certain qualities.

I see what you’re saying!
But those who are infertile don’t have the potential to have children, strictly speaking.
A woman can stand for Faith and Family while being barren.

Not the act of childbearing being the determining factor, but rather that specialness that makes us women, whether we have children or not.

I wholeheartedly agree with you 110%! I just read the statement(s) differently.

tinalewis;5121173:

Children are a blessing, not a right.

That is a brilliant statement!

I agree, but that’s not the topic. If I must answer, I am going to say that no one here thinks that children are a right. I am talking about fertility being a qualifier for some ideal of womanhood that is seemingly off base.

 

[tinalewis]

A woman can stand for Faith and Family while being barren.
.

Barren??? Who’s “barren” ???

 

[Miserissima]

Barren??? Who’s “barren” ???

I didn’t mean to use that word in an inflammatory manner. The PC term is “infertile,” or technically, “sterile.” I apologize.