Women in Islam: An old topic, but relevant to my interests

[Eucharisted]

In a thread DolphinLove started, Sister Amy mistook me for a woman. So I made the joke that, as a man, I am more intelligence than a Muslim woman - according to Islam, that is. Now of course I wouldn’t have said this unless I considered it true (but considering something true is never the same as something actually being true). Sister Amy was kind enough to give a link to an article on Muslim women:

“Contemporary Muslim Woman” Series: Islam and Women by Shagufta Ahmad

In my own little adventure of finding the truth, I happened upon WikiIslam, which included this article on Muslim women:

Women are Deficient in Intelligence

So, who do you think is right: Eucharisted or Sister Amy?

 

[Sister_Amy]

In a thread DolphinLove started, Sister Amy mistook me for a woman. So I made the joke that, as a man, I am more intelligence than a Muslim woman - according to Islam, that is. Now of course I wouldn’t have said this unless I considered it true (but considering something true is never the same as something actually being true). Sister Amy was kind enough to give a link to an article on Muslim women:

“Contemporary Muslim Woman” Series: Islam and Women by Shagufta Ahmad

In my own little adventure of finding the truth, I happened upon WikiIslam, which included this article on Muslim women:

Women are Deficient in Intelligence

So, who do you think is right: me or Sister Amy?

I didn’t really mistake you for a woman–rather I thought Vickie was saying you were a woman. It turned out to be a different mistake, actually.

The article I gave you was really interesting, I discovered it in my google reader just today and thought I’d share it with you.

And if you want to look for the truth, a site called Wikiislam should repel you like the plague. I have myself written something briefly on the matter of women being so called “deficient in intelligence.” You can read it here, called Deficiency of Women.

The article I quoted is a good article, actually, but it doesn’t address the topic that seems to have left Eucharisted in fits of laughter.

 

[Eucharisted]

I didn’t really mistake you for a woman–rather I thought Vickie was saying you were a woman. It turned out to be a different mistake, actually.

The article I gave you was really interesting, I discovered it in my google reader just today and thought I’d share it with you.

And if you want to look for the truth, a site called Wikiislam should repel you like the plague. I have myself written something briefly on the matter of women being so called “deficient in intelligence.” You can read it here, called Deficiency of Women.

The article I quoted is a good article, actually, but it doesn’t address the topic that seems to have left Eucharisted in fits of laughter.

Why should WikiIslam repel me? It’s not like Wikipedia. And it is un-biased, in my opinion. It includes a video of a woman defending Islam, and it includes different ways of explaining a hadith wherein Mohammed said women are defecient in intelligence. If you are truly open to the truth, you’ll give the article a look. At least then you’d have a good reason to tell me not to trust what it says - if what it says is biased and not true.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Actually I did look at it, and I can tell you after the first four words that it’s biased:

“Muhammad’s dislike for women…”

The article is filled with similar comments–editorializing, in some cases the opinion of the author(s) without any proof or backing. The premise of the site is to attack Islam–again reinforcing my point that the site is biased. It’s just another site against Islam, something I’m getting quite annoyed with lately.

Moreover, a statement on their site, “Please note that this is in no way an overview of Islam, rather it is a collection of quotations compiled to aid us in our quest to help Muslims leave Islam.” (link)

 

[Eucharisted]

Actually I did look at it, and I can tell you after the first four words that it’s biased:

“Muhammad’s dislike for women…”

(Nick Note: I’ve read your edited post, so don’t worry about if I missed it, Sister Amy )

That’s not biasm, that’s called opinion. The writer included it in the beginning of the article because he’s using John Hodgman’s 8 Keys To Success.

Silliness aside, I read your article, and was not satisfied with what it said: not because what it claimed didn’t satisify me, but because how it was written didn’t satisfy me. So I looked for another Muslim source on the issue of female intelligence, and I came upon two websites: one was WikiIslam, another was - what appeared to be - an apologist site (link) for Islam. The latter was well written, but the explanation it gave didn’t sound right, it sounded as if the writer was taking one part of a hadith geneally and another part particularly, i.e., one part for all women and another part for just one group of women. It wasn’t a sound explaination, so I went to WikiIslam, and decided that this article had what I was looking for - even though it wasn’t written by a Muslim.

 

[tomarin]

That’s not biasm, that’s called opinion. The writer included it in the beginning of the article because he’s using John Hodgman’s 8 Keys To Success.

No, bias is not the same thing as opinion. Bias is “a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation.” Opinion can be neutral, but bias cannot be neutral.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Then his opinion is biased. If an article is unbiased, it means it should be devoid of subjective biased opinions, and phrases like “Muhammad’s dislike for women.”

More to the point, the site itself claims to be a site trying to get Muslims to leave Islam. It admits to its bias, therefore.

Just last week a sister was questioning my imam about women’s intelligence and why two female witnesses are required, and he insisted that the logic is just as the Qur’an says, that the one woman might forget, so the other is to remind her. The imam’s wife actually took me aside one time after I asked similar questions a while ago and explained that after a woman has a child, her memory starts to behave differently. That’s actually scientifically proven. But the imam insisted actually that a woman could forget because she was not familiar with the process of witnessing transactions at that particular time, and that nowadays two witnesses would be sufficient as a witness to a contract, regardless of their sex.

The issue of 'aql is something I have heard from my teachers of Arabic language, who discuss the roots of the word. 'Aql is used to mean intelligence and logic but it is from tying, in this case tying emotions. And we know FOR A FACT that women in general tend to be more emotional, and sometimes their emotions overpower their rationale.



I only know non-Muslims (like yourself) who use this hadith to insult women. Funny how Muslim men don’t seem to understand it in that discriminatory way.

 

[Eucharisted]

Then his opinion is biased. If an article is unbiased, it means it should be devoid of subjective biased opinions, and phrases like “Muhammad’s dislike for women.”

More to the point, the site itself claims to be a site trying to get Muslims to leave Islam. It admits to its bias, therefore.

Just last week a sister was questioning my imam about women’s intelligence and why two female witnesses are required, and he insisted that the logic is just as the Qur’an says, that the one woman might forget, so the other is to remind her. The imam’s wife actually took me aside one time after I asked similar questions a while ago and explained that after a woman has a child, her memory starts to behave differently. That’s actually scientifically proven. But the imam insisted actually that a woman could forget because she was not familiar with the process of witnessing transactions at that particular time, and that nowadays two witnesses would be sufficient as a witness to a contract, regardless of their sex.

The issue of 'aql is something I have heard from my teachers of Arabic language, who discuss the roots of the word. 'Aql is used to mean intelligence and logic but it is from tying, in this case tying emotions. And we know FOR A FACT that women in general tend to be more emotional, and sometimes their emotions overpower their rationale.



I only know non-Muslims (like yourself) who use this hadith to insult women. Funny how Muslim men don’t seem to understand it in that discriminatory way.

Really, scientifically proven? Would you be kind enough to show me this proof, such as a scientific report, and not one from a Muslim site (since Muslim sites are biased)?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Funny how Muslim men don’t seem to understand it in that discriminatory way.

Many whites in southern states before 1970 did not understand ‘******’ as a derogatory or discriminatory way toward blacks. Not until civil laws and social awareness made it unacceptable for whites- though some blacks use it amongts themselves now/today as a statement of something else like the use of gang-sta’…

Institutionalized bigotry, racism, and 2nd class citizen status to women, minorities or others are all deemed the ‘norm’ in political systems like America or South Africa before they were challenged in civil courts/international law and defeated by the logic and reason used to win it out. Since Islams institutionalized bigotry, racism, and 2nd class citizen status to women, minorities or others is based upon the religion it is doubtfull Moslem men will ever understand particularly when they have Moslem women supporting it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Really, scientifically proven? Would you be kind enough to show me this proof, such as a scientific report, and not one from a Muslim site (since Muslim sites are biased)?

No, I won’t be so kind.

 

[Sam_777]

Sahih Muslim is the right one.

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0142:
“It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Umar that the Messenger of Allah observed: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense, and you spend some nights (and days) in which you do not offer prayer and in the month of Ramadan (during the days) you do not observe fast, that is a failing in religion. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Tahir with this chain of transmitters.”
(E) (A).

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

No, I won’t be so kind.

for Eucharisted & others .

If any do deeds of righteousness, **be they male or female,
and have faith, they will enter Paradise **and not the least injustice will be done to them.
[Quran 4:124]

PS. did not read all articles , looks like a good site .

Welcome sisters! (and brothers if you ventured in )

Resources for and about Muslim Women

 

[ralphinal]

Then his opinion is biased. If an article is unbiased, it means it should be devoid of subjective biased opinions, and phrases like “Muhammad’s dislike for women.”

More to the point, the site itself claims to be a site trying to get Muslims to leave Islam. It admits to its bias, therefore.

Just last week a sister was questioning my imam about women’s intelligence and why two female witnesses are required, and he insisted that the logic is just as the Qur’an says, that the one woman might forget, so the other is to remind her. The imam’s wife actually took me aside one time after I asked similar questions a while ago and explained that after a woman has a child, her memory starts to behave differently. That’s actually scientifically proven. But the imam insisted actually that a woman could forget because she was not familiar with the process of witnessing transactions at that particular time, and that nowadays two witnesses would be sufficient as a witness to a contract, regardless of their sex.

The issue of 'aql is something I have heard from my teachers of Arabic language, who discuss the roots of the word. 'Aql is used to mean intelligence and logic but it is from tying, in this case tying emotions. And we know FOR A FACT that women in general tend to be more emotional, and sometimes their emotions overpower their rationale.



I only know non-Muslims (like yourself) who use this hadith to insult women. Funny how Muslim men don’t seem to understand it in that discriminatory way.

First, why does it not only apply to women who have had babies? Would virgins not be free from this memory issue?

Second, I have seen first hand that pregnant women do have memory issues, but they tend to clear up after childbirth.

If this is an issue about emotions overpowering rational, which is true for many women, why can the same not be said for men? Does Islam accept a fit of rage defense for murder?

 

[Sister_Amy]

First, why does it not only apply to women who have had babies? Would virgins not be free from this memory issue?

Second, I have seen first hand that pregnant women do have memory issues, but they tend to clear up after childbirth.

If this is an issue about emotions overpowering rational, which is true for many women, why can the same not be said for men? Does Islam accept a fit of rage defense for murder?

In my state (North Carolina), two witnesses are required for some contracts. Why two? Why not one?

In the case of women, a virgin may witness a contract she knows nothing about, but then later she gets married and get pregnant, maybe a dispute arises while she’s pregnant? Or afterwards.

But as a matter of fact, and people tend to not realize this, but if one man and two women witness a contract, and the man dies and so does one of the women, and there is only one woman remaining, and there is a dispute about the contract, her testimony will be the strongest evidence in the case. The matter is not that a woman’s testimony isn’t valid, which is unfortunately how Westerners tend to interpret the law. It is actually that two witnesses are required for a contract to be valid, if two can be found among the men. But if two men aren’t available, then one man and two women will suffice. The logic is that if one of the women forgets, the other can remind her. I think it also is a kind of safeguard if someone might try to trick one of the women into taking sides in the conflict. Some people have also said (like my imam, for instance) that women were only more likely to forget because these were financial contracts, and they typically would not have been experienced in those details, and so they were more likely to forget because women often weren’t involved in them in the first place to be familiar with them.

All good points.

 

[Rocky]

In my state (North Carolina), two witnesses are required for some contracts. Why two? Why not one?

In the case of women, a virgin may witness a contract she knows nothing about, but then later she gets married and get pregnant, maybe a dispute arises while she’s pregnant? Or afterwards.

But as a matter of fact, and people tend to not realize this, but if one man and two women witness a contract, and the man dies and so does one of the women, and there is only one woman remaining, and there is a dispute about the contract, her testimony will be the strongest evidence in the case. The matter is not that a woman’s testimony isn’t valid, which is unfortunately how Westerners tend to interpret the law. It is actually that two witnesses are required for a contract to be valid, if two can be found among the men. But if two men aren’t available, then one man and two women will suffice. The logic is that if one of the women forgets, the other can remind her. I think it also is a kind of safeguard if someone might try to trick one of the women into taking sides in the conflict. Some people have also said (like my imam, for instance) that women were only more likely to forget because these were financial contracts, and they typically would not have been experienced in those details, and so they were more likely to forget because women often weren’t involved in them in the first place to be familiar with them.

All good points.

The problem here, as I see it, is that I have read where the Koran and Muhammed’s life and sayings are for all the ages. So if Mohammed did this or that, then that is the way it is still to be done, because he was the perfect man.

Now in Arabia in the 7th century women might not have been able to understand the ramifications of contracts (although that seems a little far-fetched since Mohammed’s first wife was a woman of property who traded goods, I believe, and who he felt qualified to give him advice). But in today’s world with more educational opportunities for women (more women in college, than men) it seems to be an unnecessary rule.

So if Mohammed’s life is not perfect for all ages, what does this mean for Islam?

 

[ralphinal]

In my state (North Carolina), two witnesses are required for some contracts. Why two? Why not one?

There are lots of possible reasons. I deal with contracts of all sorts in my line of work, and each one has different rules and regulations.

In the case of women, a virgin may witness a contract she knows nothing about, but then later she gets married and get pregnant, maybe a dispute arises while she’s pregnant? Or afterwards.

And what if the man is an idiot? That may not be known at the time. I think one woman should be worth one moron any day.

But as a matter of fact, and people tend to not realize this, but if one man and two women witness a contract, and the man dies and so does one of the women, and there is only one woman remaining, and there is a dispute about the contract, her testimony will be the strongest evidence in the case. The matter is not that a woman’s testimony isn’t valid, which is unfortunately how Westerners tend to interpret the law. It is actually that two witnesses are required for a contract to be valid, if two can be found among the men. But if two men aren’t available, then one man and two women will suffice. The logic is that if one of the women forgets, the other can remind her. I think it also is a kind of safeguard if someone might try to trick one of the women into taking sides in the conflict. Some people have also said (like my imam, for instance) that women were only more likely to forget because these were financial contracts, and they typically would not have been experienced in those details, and so they were more likely to forget because women often weren’t involved in them in the first place to be familiar with them.

All good points.

Yes, but what if the man is an idiot? The person entering the contract may not know how dumb the witness is. This idea that the woman is inherently more likely to miss the important details insults me. And I am very sexist.

 

[chrisse]

You both are.

1. Women are as likely to be intelligent, creative, silly, or just plain dumb as men. As individuals we are all born equal in our humanity, but with diverse talents and abilities.
2. Under Islamic doctrine, women are considered less intelligent than men.

The article Sister Amy provided (I linked to it, but didn’t read it, as I got the gist and I’m sure they are talented, intelligent and creative people in their own right) proves that allah was wrong, allah’s prophet is false - because allah and mohammed are wrong (not only here of course.)

By the way, Eucharisted, you’ve almost got as many posts against your name as Sister Amy, but she’s had quite a few months head start on you. Way to go

 

[chrisse]

No, I won’t be so kind.

Sister Amy, you need help, you desperately need help. You are fully indoctrinated and have willingly, if ignorantly, submitted your brain to stupidity. I cannot believe what I read in your answers up to this point.

 

[chrisse]

The problem here, as I see it, is that I have read where the Koran and Muhammed’s life and sayings are for all the ages. So if Mohammed did this or that, then that is the way it is still to be done, because he was the perfect man.

Now in Arabia in the 7th century women might not have been able to understand the ramifications of contracts (although that seems a little far-fetched since Mohammed’s first wife was a woman of property who traded goods, I believe, and who he felt qualified to give him advice). But in today’s world with more educational opportunities for women (more women in college, than men) it seems to be an unnecessary rule.

---

Let me answer that, it’s a false religion and mohammed was a false prophet.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy, you need help, you desperately need help. You are fully indoctrinated and have willingly, if ignorantly, submitted your brain to stupidity. I cannot believe what I read in your answers up to this point.

Of course you can’t believe it, if you heart has been sealed and blackened beyond recognition by your behavior and arrogance and refusal to repent to God for your sins.