Women in the church the feminine genius

[therese1998]

And the current troubles are mostly about bad management,

Agreed. But as someone who works in a profession with a lot of female management, I can tell you that they are as subject to making bad decisions and immoral decisions as anyone else. The problem is not gender, the problem is sin. Let’s also remember that there were many women in the Church who had at least some knowledge of what was going on and did not report it. That doesn’t argue for better management decisions just because they are a few steps up the ladder. Leadership takes the blame for bad management, it’s why they have the privileges they do, but they are not the only ones involved. Women down the ladder make just as credible witnesses in our legal system as a priest or a bishop or even a Pope.

 

[therese1998]

“boy’s clubs”

Hmmm. Are you saying that women don’t form cliques?

 

[elohimrules]

Biblical basis: Is not Mary Magdelene called 'the apostles to the apostles" I mean shes got a bad rap throughout history people saying she was a prostitute which is just NOT TRUE. All that we know is that shes from Magdala and prob well off and had 7 demons cast out from her which may also mean mental illness. It if were a GUY that Jesus first appeared to I think we would have seen him as the greatest of all the apostles instead of labeling him a whore. Just saying.

 

[therese1998]

Yes, Mary is called the Apostle to the Apostles and for good reason. And Jesus clearly thought exceedingly well of her. Yet, He didn’t give her that title and He didn’t declare her as one of his Twelve. Why?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Thinking of Ireland this weekend, and all that is, and has, gone on there… The horrors that occurred in convents were certainly perpetrated by women - the Magdalene Laundries, the graves found with hundreds of babies, and child abuse in Industrial Schools. All women.

As much as I believe that women need to be in leadership in the Church, perhaps that comes AFTER the root cause of all these atrocities is flushed out. I’m not certain what the whole problem is, but it certainly starts with a very unhealthy understanding and practice of sexuality. That is evident to even the lowliest of us watching from afar.

 

[therese1998]

the Magdalene Laundries,

Forgot about those…that made me so pervasively sad for those women and their children…

As much as I believe that women need to be in leadership in the Church, perhaps that comes AFTER the root cause of all these atrocities is flushed out.

Agreed and I would add that a system of free reporting and accountability be established. Of course, they would then be the first human organization to do so…

a very unhealthy understanding and practice of sexuality.

True. And is the norm in our society, as well. It’s an achievement that would be staggering as well as never really accomplished before. Still, even a decrease in numbers or an improvement in transparency would be exponentially better.

 

[elohimrules]

This is a defining moment for the pope and calling the actions of the abusers a swear word is not enough. He needs to DO something to show the world that abuse is not right.

 

[joeybaggz]

joeybaggz:

Exactly what else should women be doing? Making decisions on what is doctrine and dogma?

How about making decisions about anti-sexual abuse procedures in the Church? The men are messing that up mightily. Somebody needs to fix it.

What’s your solution? It better be significant, because we are losing at this point.

You know, I’m starting to get tired of posting the same thing over and over, but, well, maybe once more. In the U.S., there are no bad decisions being made pertaining to sexual abuse. Since 2002 there have been in place in most, if not all, dioceses in the U.S. definite steps that are taken in cases where abuse is found to be credible. Instant removal from ministry and reporting of abuse claims to proper church and civil authorities. There is no widescale abuse of minors going on in the U.S. Catholic Church. (will there be isolated instances, unfortunately probably.) But not on the widescale basis of 20 to 50 years ago. We don’t need women for this, it has already been addressed by the Catholic bishops.
to repeat, WILL SOMEONE PLEASE STOP THE HYSTERIA !!!

 

[therese1998]

How about making decisions about anti-sexual abuse procedures in the Church?

How do you know women are not involved in those discussions? My impression is that one person is the face of the decisions to the public but that there are many whose voice is heard. Anti-sexual abuse policies are clearly in place and have been for at least a decade and a half. Further, having the policies and procedures is fine, good even. It’s the FOLLOWING of the procedures that seems to be a problem.

 

[therese1998]

Since 2002 there have been in place in most, if not all, dioceses in the U.S. definite steps that are taken in cases where abuse is found to be credible.

Indeed. And a clearer procedure for what constitutes credible accusations has been communicated as well. There were several instances of priests being accused, removed, and then found to be innocent of all charges. Sour grapes.

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE STOP THE HYSTERIA !!!

It’s also important we don’t engage in a witch hunt. That is not helpful, either. We need cool heads and both men and women can possess that.

 

[cathapolo]

A good talk by Alice Von Hildebrand that some might find of interest.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

Biblical basis: Is not Mary Magdelene called 'the apostles to the apostles"

She is not called that in the Bible.

 

[jfz178]

I do not share your confidence in the bishops. I think the actions that were publicized that could have been effective have not been fully implemented. I am a part of one of those efforts and I can tell you it has not been even somewhat implemented. Since all the same situations that led to, and allowed, abuse in the past are still in place in most parishes, I have no confidence abuse is not going on now.

More troubling is that the clergy that allowed and even participated in abuses in the past are now in power at the highest levels of the Church. This is serious and faithful Catholics should take as such.

 

[Delphinus]

Although I agree, I think that having more women around leadership would be good and stop more scandals. Just as in a family there is a father and a mother, some of the best times in the church come from a time when men and women (nuns and priests) worked closely with one another to let the god-given talents of each gender shine through. We were a united family and there should be active fathers AND mothers. Now, it seems the genders are separated and any mention of women being spiritual advisors or more present around leadership (though not actually ordained as priests) is seen as a push for female ordination. Just as Jesus had a mother who advised him (the wedding at Cana), I think our priests could use a mother over them as well. Not as an authority, but as a guide. There’s real beauty in that.

 

[on_the_hill]

I think the arguments against allowing women to be in executive decision making roles at the Vatican are mostly rooted in fear of change.

So don’t ordain women, but allow them into the Magesterium.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The Magisterium doesn’t need that.

 

[joeybaggz]

I do not share your confidence in the bishops. I think the actions that were publicized that could have been effective have not been fully implemented.

Then please refute my words with facts from any credible source on how many cases of physical sexual abuse have occurred in the United States Catholic dioceses that have been covered up since 2002. I am willing to accept your skepticism if you can back it up with facts. I want to know how many minors have been abused by priests since 2002 and how many bishops there are covering it up. Please FACTS, not PERSONAL OPINIONS!

 

[LittleFlower]

There should not be any impediment to having managerial roles in the church. And the current troubles are mostly about bad management, not bad religion.

I never said it was about bad anything, just looking for clarity on whether women can fully participate in the Vatican and other higher administration duties.

Trying to stay on topic and not discuss ordaining women or not.

Hmmm. Are you saying that women don’t form cliques?

Within organisations? Rarely. Outside of the Magdalene laundries I cannot think of an example
within the Catholic church where women have organised themselves and helped each out by covering up abuse—all the way to the top. Like cardinals, and popes.

Stop changing the goal posts, this isn’t about “boy’s clubs” in general. This is about the abuse coverup that IMHO would have most likely not happened for as long or at all if more laity and more women were involved in the Church hierarchy—outside of the religious nature of it.

Here’s something to think about: There are in every diocese safeguarding commissions these days, they implement the better standards. But do you know where abuse allegations go? Majority still go straight to the Bishop. Laity is only involved in the implementation of safeguards.

 

[LittleFlower]

She is not called that in the Bible.

No, but she is called that because she is mentioned twelve times in the gospel—more than most other apostles. And she was the first witness of the empty tomb and first to testify Jesus’ resurrection.

The Greek work from which apostles comes from means to “send off” or to be a messenger. She was a messenger to the apostles.

This Catholic and christian tradition is hundreds of years old. St Augustine calls her by that title.

John 20:15-17 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rab-bo′ni!” (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”[a]

Further about the tradition can be read on the Vatican site.

 

[jfz178]

Your premise that if someone cannot prove abuse is happening right now, then it is not happening right now ignores the victimology of abuse we have seen in the past. Just like with the scandal in PA, evidence of abuse typically doesn’t become known for decades.

That so many people still take the position the Church took years ago when abuse was happening right under its nose is one of the signs to me that we haven’t made much progress. We have a duty to Catholic children to assume it’s always happening rather than continuing to bury our heads in the sand and assume it’s not.

My lack of confidence is based on direct experience that the Church’s most effective anti-abuse program has been very poorly implemented.

I actually hope you are right. I just have no confidence that you are. We have been lied to by the hierarchy so many times in the past and they have spent so much of our Church’s money covering it up, I simply cannot share your optimism.