Women in the Church

[CARose]

Yup, I just found it. I looked at your profile to see if you’d seen my post above and found you looking at that thread. Took a look there and found ! WOW!

I’m so happy for you, even as I appreciate it isn’t all fun and games.

God Bless and welcome home. Keep up the prayers and you’ll find it feeling more and more like the place you’ve been seeking. Heck, it could be that the main thing we’ve been missing has been “YOU”!

The body of Christ needs all it’s members to function at it’s peak, and each of us has been called to serve a different function. It’s amazing what our Protestant Brethren have accomplished through the Holy Spirit, even without the benefits of the Sacraments and the Eucharist. I can appreciate that you wouldn’t want to do anything to offend your family in Faith at Vineyard, but you can pray that they also come to know the fullness that you are beginning to tap into in your Catholic roots and ask that the Holy Spirit guide you if you are meant to give witness to this truth with any of your friends there.

But, perhaps for now, simply finding a way to come to terms with all you’re going through is the best course of action. Try spending an hour in Eucharistic Adoration, contemplating the opportunity you have to spend time in the actual, physical presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, in the humblest of appearences, simple bread, but the Bread of Life indeed.

God Bless,

CARose

(I am so Happy for you!)

 

[StCsDavid]

Kendy:

The issue is to what extent is it JUST to exclude someone from a position that he or she is capable of doing, whether that position be something that is considered lofty, like the presidency, or not considered so lofty, like street sweeping.

It’s seems to me that one’s aptitude (and perhaps calling) for a particular task is the only just determinant of one’s candidancy for that job.
Kendy

With regard to the priesthood, it’s JUST because God made the rules. You don’t have to like it, but it’s simply not going to change…whether you or anyone feels it’s right or not.

In other areas of life, especially corporate America, you are at the mercy of the whims of humanity. To say that aptitude is all that matters is a bit wet behind the ears. Sorry, but the world doesn’t turn that way. Politics, pride, envy, arrogance, etc, etc all come into play. It’s not how good you are, but who you know, and how much your willing to compromise your beliefs. “It’s not show-friends, it’s show business.” IMHO, that’s the jungle of capitalism. Could it be different? Sure, if those who ran the business were true to their Christian beliefs, but you don’t see that too often once you get past the level of Vice President. The money is too good and the power too intoxicating. Is that just? Of course not. So what? If you don’t like there’s always another schmo waiting in the wings to take your place.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Kendy:

Thank you for sharing these documents with me, Lux. I have read the documents, and if I may summarize the argument.

Women cannot be ordained because it would violate the example set by Christ in scripture (a decision He made freely and sovereignly), and it would violate the tradtion established by the apostles. That women cannot be ordained is not evidence of their inferiority since the Holy Mother, who is clearly held in high esteem, was not called to be an apostle. Furthermore, the real position of esteem in the church is not ministry but sainthood, from which women are not excluded. Women are called to fulfill their very admirable roles in life, particularly, the role of motherhood. This is the church’s teaching and believers are called to assent.

I am afraid I can only respond as I responded before. I understand the church’s teaching. I do not like it. I have no intention on protesting it. I appreciate your and the many other attempts to persuade me of the wisdom of this. But my post-enlightenment worldview, which prizes merit and individuality makes it very difficult to accept this gleefully.

Kendy

Kendy, you have contributed a very thoughtful thread to CAF. I especially like the expression of submission and obedience that you exhibit in the last paragraph. God doesn’t often seem to do what I want or on my timeframe. I too sometimes have to accept His decisions reluctantly. But upon reflection and prayer, after time, I always learn (if nothing else) humility as I have to face the fact that I’m not God. For someone as self-assured (most describe me as arrogant but I don’t see that plank as clearly) as me, this is always a very hard lesson.

There will be many times in our life when we question the Church’s teaching. It is ok to question and probe God. It is in our probing that we get to better understand and know Him. You say above that you “understand” the Church’s teaching but you don’t yet accept it. What you have grasped is the rationale but you don’t yet truly understand. To fully understand would also mean that you accept and agree with it. This is a subject that you still need to take to prayer and study (God gave us a mind and expects us to use it).

For me, I spent years struggling w/ the Church’s teaching on abortion (especially regarding rape and incest) and birth control. All I could see was the issues surrounding the involuntary nature of pregnancy in so many situations and the hostile environments that so many of these children would be forced to experience and I couldn’t reconcile that with a good God. At the same time, I grasped the Church’s rationale regarding human dignity, premarital sex, and submission to God’s plan by being open to life. But my mind told me that this was too black and white for the “real world”.

This “reality” of knowing that I needed to submit and obey yet my mind told me there had to be exceptions caused me to struggle quietly. I never openly expressed my dissent but took it to prayer asking for wisdom (I knew all the arguments on both sides but I needed wisdom to discern the greater Truth). Over time, I came to understand the “big picture.” It didn’t just help me reconcile myself mind and soul to the Church’s teaching on abortion and birth control but more broadly gave me insight into human dignity of all people.

I now understand that this struggle was part of God’s plan. If I had just accepted the Church’s abortion teaching without question, I’d have never struggled and found the greater truth on human dignity issues. I better see my responsibilty to find Christ in even the most “unlovable” around us. I better see how my failings impact even those who I’ll never meet. I look back now on that period of questioning and quiet dissent as a blessing and not an obstacle.

Let me paraphrase St. Jerome who said that when he doesn’t understand Scripture or thinks there is a contradiction, it isn’t a reflection of the imperfection of Scripture but a reflection of his lack of understanding. All that is going on with you is that you haven’t found the consistency in this Discipline of the Church. But if it is in God’s plan for you to understand it, you will only come to the clarity of thought by prayer and study. If it is in God’s plan for this to be cross for which you are called to submit and obey without full understanding, thank God for that too.

 

[YinYangMom]

Kendy:

I just want to say that I have no feelings of envy…not penis envy…not priesthood envy. I don’t “feel called” to priesthood nor do I long to be called to it.

Kendy

Good to hear. Why then, do you appear unsettled with women being banned from the priesthood? I must be missing something, and must admit, my response was directed more toward the general argument against the ruling than toward your personal opinion. It seemed as though you were playing advocate for others who are not happy about being denied the vocation so maybe you can shed some insight as to what the concern really is?

Men and women were not made equal physically or emotionally. We are equal with regard to respect and dignity, but we are two of the same - each with a specific function which completes humanity. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Humanity is male and female. The Father is creator, the Son is Redeemer, the Spirit is the breath of life, deliverer of gifts. Males serve certain functions for the continuation of mankind, females serve others for the continuation of mankind. Where Father, Son and Spirit can and do take on each other’s attributes, men and women, while we can share some, there are others we simply cannot due to earthly constraints. Men cannot give birth. Women cannot create life without men.

There are many, many female saints - some with the stigmata, others became a bride of Christ - they were chosen by Him to fulfill unique roles in our salvation history and the Catholic Church has recognized their worth by elevating them to Sainthood. To me, this indicates how open the Church is to women. These women didn’t become priests, they weren’t able to change bread and water into the Body and Blood of Christ, but they were able to save a multitude of souls and further advance the Church’s understanding of God’s love and mercy so that all humanity would benefit from their service. If women really want to be priests, can we not encourage them to become saints? Would that satisfy them?

 

[YinYangMom]

Kendy:

If we put aside the sacramental role, how does the priest guide and protect in a way that a woman is unable to?

That’s just it, though, we **cannot **put aside the sacramental role. That’s what made the priesthood to begin with when Jesus ordained Peter to lead the Church, it was to go out and share the sacraments with all people.

 

[Kendy]

Thanks for your thoughts, Orion.

Kendy

Orionthehunter:

Kendy, you have contributed a very thoughtful thread to CAF. I especially like the expression of submission and obedience that you exhibit in the last paragraph. God doesn’t often seem to do what I want or on my timeframe. I too sometimes have to accept His decisions reluctantly. But upon reflection and prayer, after time, I always learn (if nothing else) humility as I have to face the fact that I’m not God. For someone as self-assured (most describe me as arrogant but I don’t see that plank as clearly) as me, this is always a very hard lesson.

There will be many times in our life when we question the Church’s teaching. It is ok to question and probe God. It is in our probing that we get to better understand and know Him. You say above that you “understand” the Church’s teaching but you don’t yet accept it. What you have grasped is the rationale but you don’t yet truly understand. To fully understand would also mean that you accept and agree with it. This is a subject that you still need to take to prayer and study (God gave us a mind and expects us to use it).

For me, I spent years struggling w/ the Church’s teaching on abortion (especially regarding rape and incest) and birth control. All I could see was the issues surrounding the involuntary nature of pregnancy in so many situations and the hostile environments that so many of these children would be forced to experience and I couldn’t reconcile that with a good God. At the same time, I grasped the Church’s rationale regarding human dignity, premarital sex, and submission to God’s plan by being open to life. But my mind told me that this was too black and white for the “real world”.

This “reality” of knowing that I needed to submit and obey yet my mind told me there had to be exceptions caused me to struggle quietly. I never openly expressed my dissent but took it to prayer asking for wisdom (I knew all the arguments on both sides but I needed wisdom to discern the greater Truth). Over time, I came to understand the “big picture.” It didn’t just help me reconcile myself mind and soul to the Church’s teaching on abortion and birth control but more broadly gave me insight into human dignity of all people.

I now understand that this struggle was part of God’s plan. If I had just accepted the Church’s abortion teaching without question, I’d have never struggled and found the greater truth on human dignity issues. I better see my responsibilty to find Christ in even the most “unlovable” around us. I better see how my failings impact even those who I’ll never meet. I look back now on that period of questioning and quiet dissent as a blessing and not an obstacle.

Let me paraphrase St. Jerome who said that when he doesn’t understand Scripture or thinks there is a contradiction, it isn’t a reflection of the imperfection of Scripture but a reflection of his lack of understanding. All that is going on with you is that you haven’t found the consistency in this Discipline of the Church. But if it is in God’s plan for you to understand it, you will only come to the clarity of thought by prayer and study. If it is in God’s plan for this to be cross for which you are called to submit and obey without full understanding, thank God for that too.

 

[Kendy]

YinYangMom:

Good to hear. Why then, do you appear unsettled with women being banned from the priesthood? I must be missing something, and must admit, my response was directed more toward the general argument against the ruling than toward your personal opinion. It seemed as though you were playing advocate for others who are not happy about being denied the vocation so maybe you can shed some insight as to what the concern really is?

I am afraid I cannot express my objections any clearer than what I said in post # 51.

Kendy

 

[TobyLue]

I thought I would put in my two cents.

but I have a hard time seeing how the priesthood requires masculine skills.

It’s not a question of “masculine skill”. Many women can and have acquired ceretain masculine skills. The priesthood does not require skill. It is a “calling” from God Himself. God in His wisdom has chosen and only calls men to the priesthood, and has nothing to do with masculine skills.

However, I have no intention on doing anything about my uncomfortable feelings. That’s what I mean by “Okay! Fine! Whatever!” Does “assenting” to the church’s teachings mean I have to like it? What if I just promise not to actively dissent? Will that be good enough?

To this I will only quote from scripture.
“And going on a little further he fell on his face and prayed, ‘My Father,’ he said ‘if it is possible, let this cup pass me by. Nevertheless, let it be as you, not I would have it.’” Or did Jesus say, “Neverthesless, Okay! Fine! Whatever!”? We need to imitate Jesus. If we are having trouble accepting Gods will, we need to pray for to Him for true acceptance.

 

[YinYangMom]

Thanks, Kendy for referring me to thread #51. It was most helpful.

Kendy:

It’s seems to me that one’s aptitude (and perhaps calling) for a particular task is the only just determinant of one’s candidancy for that job.

The priesthood is **not **a job. It is a vocation one is called to by God Himself, not something one considers as a career path because of one’s own interest or desire. Just as Jesus hand selected the 12 and ordained them priests at Pentecost, He continues to do so today, through the Catholic Church.

As for men, they cannot have babies because they don’t have uteri. There’s nothing I can to help them in that since I don’t produce uteri and the task of reproduction requires them.

And women cannot take on ‘persona Christe’ because they have uteri. There’s nothing I or the Church can do to help them in their desire to be priests since I nor the Church don’t have the ability to change their genetic makeup.

However, I think many men are very capable of nurturing.

Agreed, but the priesthood is about conferring the sacraments. The pastoral shepherding part of the vocation requires nurturing and that is why, as you noted, some priests have been able to delegate those aspects to women (which the Church allows and thus, is a further example of how highly regarded and valued women are to the work of Christ).

I am okay with these distributions to the extent that they don’t penalize those at the end of the curve.

Women are not being penalized for being women. Women have become great Saints. Women have produced and through prayer, raised great Saints. Some of these saints were priests, others were not.

Likewise, I am still baffled as to what aptitude, what “fatherliness” that men bring to the priesthood that makes it unsuitable for women without violating the principle of justice as I just described it.

Fatherliness isn’t an aptitude. It is. Priests are fathers to us because they become Christ during the sacraments and Christ is God and God is Our Father. It is because of their physical maleness they are able to do this, not because of their aptitude.

 

[Kendy]

TobyLue:

“And going on a little further he fell on his face and prayed, ‘My Father,’ he said ‘if it is possible, let this cup pass me by. Nevertheless, let it be as you, not I would have it.’” Or did Jesus say, “Neverthesless, Okay! Fine! Whatever!”? We need to imitate Jesus. If we are having trouble accepting Gods will, we need to pray for to Him for true acceptance.

Okay! Fine! Good Point!

 

[FCEGM]

Kendy:

I was just wondering if anyone struggles with accepting that all the decision makers in the church are men? From Deacons to the Pope.

Kendy, I, for one, have no struggle (and never have had) in accepting the Church’s teaching in this regard.

 

[rayne89]

Hi Kendy, I’ve been watching your posts but have yet to put my :twocents: in.

I am quite proud of women’s roles in the church. Truly God in his great mercy and wisdom has given some of the best roles to us. We have been so misled by the modern feminist agenda that anytime a woman’s role is different then a man we are being oppressed. Serving God has never been about power, or decision making or administrative duties. These are burdens not blessings. God established these roles, I do not question his wisdom.

This is not saying women are inferior at all, quite the contrary. Women have been blessed with a deep sense of spirituality, compassion and mercy; and great intelligence and intuition. We have been given the gift to bring forth life. God uses us to bring forth new souls for his kingdom. We should not brush this aside as “oh yes we woman can babies big deal” because it is a big deal, a very big deal.

It’s seems your under the impression that the church believes women are not capable of the decisions required in positions of authority in the church (such as priest, bishop or pope). Or that they do not trust women to make such decisions. Popes, bishops and priest have and continue to seek out the wisdom of holy woman. This is not about capabilty but about calling. But nobody sees or knows about this women so it’s not fair? After all they receive no credit. Ahh but see this is where women have been far greater blessed.

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. Matt 6:1

We have greater opportunity to practice humility. We can give of ourselves, of our God given abilities, without any earthly credit. Why do we need it when are calling is to serve God?

We are free to develope a deep prayer life without the distractions of administrative duties. Motherhood and consecrated religious life, as well as a single woman serving the church is far more conducive to following Christ the dealing with parish politics and attending bishops conferences. Christ did not come into this world as a powerful king but as a innocent child. Someone must help run his church on earth, so he gave this burden to men. As holy men of God they must pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and I trust that guidance.

If you read St Therese (The Little Flower) or St. Faustina or other female saints you will see our role is very great in the church.

Remember this Bible passage?

*38. In the course of their journey he came to a village, and a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. *

*39. She had a sister called Mary, who sat down at the Lord’s feet and listened to him speaking. *

*40. Now Martha, who was distracted with all the serving, came to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister is leaving me to do the serving all by myself? Please tell her to help me.” *

*41. But the Lord answered, “Martha, Martha,” he said, "you worry and fret about so many things, *

42. and yet few are needed, indeed only one. It is Mary who has chosen the better part, and it is not to be taken from her."

We are given the better part.

May God Bless you on your journey.

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

This is not saying women are inferior at all, quite the contrary. Women have been blessed with a deep sense of spirituality, compassion and mercy; and great intelligence and intuition. We have been given the gift to bring forth life. God uses us to bring forth new souls for his kingdom. We should not brush this aside as “oh yes we woman can babies big deal” because it is a big deal, a very big deal.

.
"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. Matt 6:1

We have greater opportunity to practice humility. We can give of ourselves, of our God given abilities, without any earthly credit. Why do we need it when are calling is to serve God?

We are free to develope a deep prayer life without the distractions of administrative duties. Motherhood and consecrated religious life, as well as a single woman serving the church is far more conducive to following Christ the dealing with parish politics and attending bishops conferences. Christ did not come into this world as a powerful king but as a innocent child. Someone must help run his church on earth, so he gave this burden to men. As holy men of God they must pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and I trust that guidance.

What a beautiful way to see God’s gift to us in womanhood. I am deeply moved by this, Rayne. God Bless You for making my day!!!
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[x4us]

As a convert from the Evangelical church, it is my experience that women have far more influence in the Catholic Church. All the Elders were men in the Evangelical church. At my Catholic Church, atleast half the members on the Pastoral Council are women. Women were never allowed to read from the Bible during worship or lead prayer in the Evangelical church I attended. At my Catholic Church, women are both lectionaries and lead corporate prayer. At the Evangelical church women never distributed “the elements” at communion. At the Catholic Church, many women are Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers.

Also, and extremely significantly to me - there were few women who were seen as strongly shaping Evangelical doctrine - sure there were people like Joyce Meyer on the TV - but many Elders in my Evangelical church felt that women should only be teaching women and children. One Evangelical church that I knew of had the official policy that women could never teach theology to young men over 13 - that was relegated only to the men. I contrast that with St. Teresa of Avila and the Little Flower - both of whom are respected Doctors of the Church; they have had extraordinary influence on the development of doctrine in the Catholic Church.

And we have examples like St. Catherine of Sienna who took the Pope to task for leaving Rome - and he finally listened to her!! An Evangelical woman likely would feel that any criticism of the high Evangelical leadership would not show proper submission. We also have the greatly respected female saints to emutale, and the high place of respect of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Without a doubt, in my experience, women have a much more respected voice in the Catholic Church than in the Evangelical church.

 

[Kendy]

x4us:

As a convert from the Evangelical church, it is my experience that women have far more influence in the Catholic Church. All the Elders were men in the Evangelical church. At my Catholic Church, atleast half the members on the Pastoral Council are women. Women were never allowed to read from the Bible during worship or lead prayer in the Evangelical church I attended. At my Catholic Church, women are both lectionaries and lead corporate prayer. At the Evangelical church women never distributed “the elements” at communion. At the Catholic Church, many women are Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers.

Also, and extremely significantly to me - there were few women who were seen as strongly shaping Evangelical doctrine - sure there were people like Joyce Meyer on the TV - but many Elders in my Evangelical church felt that women should only be teaching women and children. One Evangelical church that I knew of had the official policy that women could never teach theology to young men over 13 - that was relegated only to the men. I contrast that with St. Teresa of Avila and the Little Flower - both of whom are respected Doctors of the Church; they have had extraordinary influence on the development of doctrine in the Catholic Church.

And we have examples like St. Catherine of Sienna who took the Pope to task for leaving Rome - and he finally listened to her!! An Evangelical woman likely would feel that any criticism of the high Evangelical leadership would not show proper submission. We also have the greatly respected female saints to emutale, and the high place of respect of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Without a doubt, in my experience, women have a much more respected voice in the Catholic Church than in the Evangelical church.

Your points are valid. I have struggled with this issue for some time. However, keep in mind there’s some diversity within evangelicalism. The Evangelical Covenant Church, for example, ordains women, and many denominations will not allow women to be senior pastors, but will allow them to serve as elders.

Kendy

 

[BeluvdLily]

Kendy:

I hope you feel no pressure from me, or any other feminists, to do anything other than that which you enjoy and believe that God has called you to do. I have never implied that there is any wrong in choosing to be a stay at home mom.

However, it’s not a decision I would make in the long term. I plan to stay at home with my children when they are young, but I have passions for other things and wouldn’t want to feel pressured not to pursue those things.

Kendy

No, Kendy, not at all. Just offering another point of view. I even surprise myself with these views sometimes. lol. I must be mellowing in my old age! I worked as a legal secretary for 20 years right out of HS (which I did not find to be at all fulfilling) so perhaps the refuge of home appeals to me now. Different strokes for different folks but no offense taken here.

Amie

 

[BOANERGES21]

TobyLue:

I ‘My Father,’ he said ‘if it is possible, let this cup pass me by. Nevertheless, let it be as you, not I would have it.’" Or did Jesus say, “Neverthesless, Okay! Fine! Whatever!”? We need to imitate Jesus. If we are having trouble accepting Gods will, we need to pray for to Him for true acceptance.

I can appreciate this quote TobyLue.

Kendy, you know right where to place the bur under the saddle. (compliment!). As a man I have even struggled with this. Not sure where/how it started for you (or maybe or just trying to start some dialouge) but I was just on the outside looking in. Without considering scripture/aposoltic tradition, I would look at other denominations and just think, ‘why can’t a women do the same thing in our Church?’ I have since come to understand why (most reasons already presented within this thread). It certainly has more to do than with equal rights. It has more to do than how to budget, set up programs within the church, etc. I’ve seen many priests whose sermons were…well…less than moving. Some women of the Faith can work a room better then men. But it’s beyond this.

I owe my Faith to God calling me but he called me through lay people, mostly women living in His name. God had a plan and Jesus followed through with it. Why exactly men? Why this path He chose? I don’t know for certain. Heck, I am a man and God has not chosen me to be a priest. Can I, or a woman for that matter, store up less treasure in Heaven because we are not a priest? I think not.

Kendy, you’ve got fire. Some people don’t like that. Keep asking the questions, even the hard ones. Then do what TobyLue quoted! Pray.

 

[seabird3579]

Kendy:

So, women can’t be trusted because they are more suceptible to false doctrines and exercise poor judgement. Well, at least we have a good reason!
Kendy

I didn’t get that “implied” message. Men have just as much chance of being deceived as women, remember Adam?

Men and women have different roles. God knew what He was doing when He made them male and female. The priesthood is a masculine role. Women who are happy with their own femininity do not desire to fill a masculine role.

Most devout Catholic men will tell you of their high regard for the Blessed Virgin Mary. Though she was a *humble * woman, God chose her to bring Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, into this world.

Even though Jesus was God, He humbled himself unto death, even death on a cross.

It seems that God values humility more than He does the aspiration of power and authority.

 

[Kendy]

BOANERGES21:

I can appreciate this quote TobyLue.

Kendy, you know right where to place the bur under the saddle. (compliment!). As a man I have even struggled with this. Not sure where/how it started for you (or maybe or just trying to start some dialouge) but I was just on the outside looking in. Without considering scripture/aposoltic tradition, I would look at other denominations and just think, ‘why can’t a women do the same thing in our Church?’ I have since come to understand why (most reasons already presented within this thread). It certainly has more to do than with equal rights. It has more to do than how to budget, set up programs within the church, etc. I’ve seen many priests whose sermons were…well…less than moving. Some women of the Faith can work a room better then men. But it’s beyond this.

I owe my Faith to God calling me but he called me through lay people, mostly women living in His name. God had a plan and Jesus followed through with it. Why exactly men? Why this path He chose? I don’t know for certain. Heck, I am a man and God has not chosen me to be a priest. Can I, or a woman for that matter, store up less treasure in Heaven because we are not a priest? I think not.

Kendy, you’ve got fire. Some people don’t like that. Keep asking the questions, even the hard ones. Then do what TobyLue quoted! Pray.

 

[jessi]

hi
I do think that women should be allow to come priests if they feel able to cope with the demanding work running a parish involves, and if god calls.
It would help the parishes in the western world that are struggling with priests being too old and having to retire, women give a differnt view on life, might encourage people to attend church.
My parish that i belong to, might close because not enough young people, and families are attending every sunday.
Only 1 boy is making his confirmation and communion at our church this year.
Its so sad .
I know that nuns have a wonderful role in the church but still must feel anxious.
god bless you jessi