Women in the Priesthood

  • Thread starter Thread starter dmar198
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Many Catholic theologians, lots and lots, say that the teaching against women priests is not infallible and can be reformed.
Ok, I think we’ve narrowed the scope of the debate then. We need to discuss whether or not it has been taught as an irreformable teaching by the Magisterium.

I don’t think it’s unimportant to look at what Catholic theologians say, but obvious it is most important to look at what the Magisterium says. After all, when the question is, “Has doctrine X been taught irreformably by the Magisterium?” it is only the Magisterium who can say that.
  1. What official documents have the Magisterium set forth that make us believe this is an irreformable/infallible teaching?
  2. And then, for what reasons might we doubt that the Magisterium truly taught this as an irreformable teaching?
I assume that the dissenting theologians would have reasons for #2. It seems to me that an orthodox Catholic would probably have to reject those reasons, but I’d love to hear them and discuss them with you.

God bless,
Rob
 
:eek: Regardless of whether the parish is left without a priest…
Well that is the Church’s problem not yours if you are not Catholic. And if you are then why do you not go down to your local diocese and ask how you can help the Church in its programs to recruit more priest. (something that is more of an American problem) Now that is something the Church can be criticized about-not doing a better job of recruiting. And even if the local church has no priest, parishes function with lay support with visiting priest there to say masses. If that is how the Church decides to handles its shortages, what is it to you. 👍
 
Well that is the Church’s problem not yours if you are not Catholic. And if you are then why do you not go down to your local diocese and ask how you can help the Church in its programs to recruit more priest. (something that is more of an American problem) Now that is something the Church can be criticized about-not doing a better job of recruiting. And even if the local church has no priest, parishes function with lay support with visiting priest there to say masses. If that is how the Church decides to handles its shortages, what is it to you. 👍
Has it occurred to you that this is not a question of what individuals do but of whether it is right and just that women should be excluded from the deaconate and the priesthood? It may seem revolutionary but it is a return to the practice in the early Church.
 
Has it occurred to you that this is not a question of what individuals do but of whether it is right and just that women should be excluded from the deaconate and the priesthood? It may seem revolutionary but it is a return to the practice in the early Church.
tonyrey,

Are you saying that women have been unjustly excluded from Holy Orders? And if so, why do you think they have been unjustly excluded? Thanks. God bless.

-Rob
 
Has it occurred to you that this is not a question of what individuals do but of whether it is right and just that women should be excluded from the deaconate and the priesthood? It may seem revolutionary but it is a return to the practice in the early Church.
Well I am not certain I need to respond to " return to the practice in the early Chuch" . That has been addressed on this forum. In fact, a link was provided outlining the official Church position on this issued under Pope Paul VI (papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6interi.htm) discussing the historic background. Recent words by Pope John Paul II reference the potential reality that this practice is nearly now a part of the infalliability of the Church’s magisterium. Another point, your notion of what is “right” and “just” is the contempary definition that " everyone gets to do whatever one else gets to do". That is fine in the secular aspects of a modern democracy but this is not the criterion used by the Church. Men and women are both equal in value but different in roles. The fact that women are not priests as " not right" or “not fair” is your perception of that reality, but that is not how the Church looks at it. Again without repeating arguments already made and best laid out in the above encyclical, the priest stands in for Christ (bridegroom) and the Church (us) is His bride. Iconography is a large aspect of the faith. Finally, I would say that you see this all the time by protestants, attempting two lines of attack 1) pointing to a practice aspect or belief of the Church and saying " where is that in scripture" or interpreting a passage of scripture and saying " see that is not right to do by scripture. 2) The Catholic Church practice or look today is not identical to the early Church. Here is the Catholic response(or at least my humble attempt I am not a Church official):What authority do you have to interpret scripture? All language has mutliple meanings and context. Are you reading the NT and OT in the original language it was written? There is evidence (reasonable enough to believe) that Christ gave the Church the authority to interpret scripture. Scripture is not the only source of revelation. Church tradition is carried on by the apostles from Christ teachings while He was on earth and such revelation continues, in essential matters of faith and morals, to this day through the Pope and the bishops in union with him.(Christ is guiding them) There is nothing in the Bible or in sacred tradition that says the Church today has to be exactly like the Church was when Christ left the earth. Christ gave His authority to the apostles and the Church develop the way it did through time (guided by Christ on essential matters of faith and morals) into its present form, practices and in its official doctrine. The Church goes through its periods of reforming itself in practice and better understands the deposit of faith (Christ"s will) over time. It is a free country, you do not need to believe it or follow it-fine then just don’t be a Catholic. I will not think any less of you if you do. I could go on but I will not.
 
After all, when the question is, “Has doctrine X been taught irreformably by the Magisterium?” it is only the Magisterium who can say that.
The question of “Has doctrine X been taught irreformably by the Magisterium?” is a question of historical fact. It is clear that the Magisterium has the authority to promulgate binding teachings on matters of faith and morals, but the question that many Catholic theologians have is when did it obtain the authority to promulgate binding teachings on matters of historical fact?

The subtext for this is that the Vatican had the opportunity to make an infallible teaching on the issue of women priests, but chose not to, i.e., they chickened out. When this didn’t stifle the opposition, the Vatican raised the ante by claiming that the doctrine of “no women priests” had already been taught infallibly by the ordinary, universal Magisterium, which some Catholic theologians doubt. As I have already pointed out, the historical language against female altar servers is just as strong as the historical language against female priests, but the Magisterium has never explained why one is a changeable discipline and the other is not only unchangeable doctrine, but infallible doctrine to boot.
 
The question of “Has doctrine X been taught irreformably by the Magisterium?” is a question of historical fact. It is clear that the Magisterium has the authority to promulgate binding teachings on matters of faith and morals, but the question that many Catholic theologians have is when did it obtain the authority to promulgate binding teachings on matters of historical fact?

The subtext for this is that the Vatican had the opportunity to make an infallible teaching on the issue of women priests, but chose not to, i.e., they chickened out. When this didn’t stifle the opposition, the Vatican raised the ante by claiming that the doctrine of “no women priests” had already been taught infallibly by the ordinary, universal Magisterium, which some Catholic theologians doubt.
If there are many ways to make an infallible teaching, then why ought the Vatican choose papal infallibility? It’s not chickening out. It’s a legitimate development of doctrine on the question of the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium. Quite frankly, it’s a clear fruit of the second Vatican council-- we are getting a clearer and more well articulated understanding of the infalliblity of the ordinary magisterium. It seems very desirable to have this sort of usage of Church infallibility. Infallibility, after all, is a charism of the Church, it’s not something the Pope just loans to the Church for ecumenical councils.
As I have already pointed out, the historical language against female altar servers is just as strong as the historical language against female priests, but the Magisterium has never explained why one is a changeable discipline and the other is not only unchangeable doctrine, but infallible doctrine to boot.
Sorry, I came into this conversation late… and there’s a lot of posts in this thread. If you’d like to represent that information or link me to the relevant posts, I’d be happy to analyze your argument.

God bless,
Rob
 
but the question that many Catholic theologians have is when did it obtain the authority to promulgate binding teachings on matters of historical fact?
If it were a mere contingency of historical fact (i.e., that the Church has in fact not ordained women) then it wouldn’t have been defined. Rather, it is a question as to what the Church’s consistent practice implies regarding its divine constitution, namely that it does not do so because it was not empowered to do so.

It would seem to me that such a question would be far more of a problem for something like the Assumption than the non-ordination of women.

Or am I misreading you?

God bless,
Rob
 
The question of “Has doctrine X been taught irreformably by the Magisterium?” is a question of historical fact. It is clear that the Magisterium has the authority to promulgate binding teachings on matters of faith and morals, but the question that many Catholic theologians have is when did it obtain the authority to promulgate binding teachings on matters of historical fact?

The subtext for this is that the Vatican had the opportunity to make an infallible teaching on the issue of women priests, but chose not to, i.e., they chickened out. When this didn’t stifle the opposition, the Vatican raised the ante by claiming that the doctrine of “no women priests” had already been taught infallibly by the ordinary, universal Magisterium, which some Catholic theologians doubt. As I have already pointed out, the historical language against female altar servers is just as strong as the historical language against female priests, but the Magisterium has never explained why one is a changeable discipline and the other is not only unchangeable doctrine, but infallible doctrine to boot.
What do you mean ’ Chickened out’. Since when do you get to demand whether, or when, the Church has to issue an infallible teaching. The Church has already given its reasons on its practice of men only priesthood (outlined in above referenced encyclical). Your interpetation on language involving female alter servers is just that-your opinion. Why would you equate an alter server with the priest’s role standing in for Christ. The Church is the authority to determine what shape its universal Magisterium is taking-not " Catholic theologians." Also, " when this didn’t stiffle opposition, the Vatican raised the ante…" Please, as if the Vatican is somehow shakened by opposition from Catholic secular thinking looking to hijack apostolic succession.
 
If there are many ways to make an infallible teaching, then why ought the Vatican choose papal infallibility?
That’s the only vehicle for infallibility that is within the Vatican’s power to choose. For infallibility by the ordinary magisterium, it’s too late to do anything about it now. Either something was taught infallibly by the Church’s magisterium throughout history or it wasn’t. There isn’t anything the Vatican can do about it now.
Quite frankly, it’s a clear fruit of the second Vatican council-- we are getting a clearer and more well articulated understanding of the infalliblity of the ordinary magisterium.
I have to disagree here. If you read the theological debates on the subject, it is clear that virtually nothing is known for sure about the verification of the historical conditions that must be present for a teaching to be infallibly by the ordinary magisterium. Thus it is even more puzzling that the CDF has decided to declare that several Church teachings are infallible by the ordinary magisterium without even bothering to settle the theological debate about exactly what historical conditions need to be verified.
Sorry, I came into this conversation late… and there’s a lot of posts in this thread. If you’d like to represent that information or link me to the relevant posts, I’d be happy to analyze your argument.
In order for the teaching on women priests to be infallible by the ordinary magisterium, the following condition must hold: Every (or nearly every) Catholic bishop must have taught that (1) women cannot be ordained priests (2) not just by church law but by divine law, and (3) that it is mandatory that Catholics agree with (1) and (2) on pain of anathema.

So for how many bishops throughout time can this be verified? In order to verify the strength of the language used in promulgating the teaching for point (3), it must be considerably stronger than the language used to condemn female altar servers, for example, Pope Benedict XIV’s encyclical Allatae Sunt (26 July 1755):

“Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.”
 
Or am I misreading you?
You are misreading me completely. The historical fact that must be verified for a doctrine to be infallible by the ordinary magisterium is whether or not it has been taught unanimously by all of the members of the college of Catholic bishops thoughout the history of the Catholic Church. The conventional theological wisdom prior to the 1990’s was that this historical condition was so intractable to verify that it could never really be known for certain whether any given teaching was infallible by the ordinary magisterium.
 
Also, " when this didn’t stiffle opposition, the Vatican raised the ante…" Please, as if the Vatican is somehow shakened by opposition from Catholic secular thinking looking to hijack apostolic succession.
The Vatican raised the ante again last year when the CDF enacted a latae sententiae excommunication for those attempting to ordain women. So it seems they are even more shaken now than they were before.

Your mental mindset that dissenters aren’t “really” a part of the Catholic Church has blinded you to the reality that this issue has the potential to tear the Catholic Church apart.
 
Rather, it is a question as to what the Church’s consistent practice implies regarding its divine constitution, namely that it does not do so because it was not empowered to do so.
The Church’s consistent practice before Vatican II has been that Popes are not to enter and pray inside of a Muslim mosque. Popes are not to bow and kiss the Islamic Koran. This consistent practice has been changed.
 
tonyrey,

Are you saying that women have been unjustly excluded from Holy Orders? And if so, why do you think they have been unjustly excluded? Thanks. God bless.
-Rob
Yes. The Church teaches that men and women are equal yet the Church has been dominated by men at every level from the Pope to the parish priest since at least the third century contrary to the practice of the early Church in which women were leaders of communities. It is not simply a question of ordination but of power, authority and jurisdiction.
 
The Vatican raised the ante again last year when the CDF enacted a latae sententiae excommunication for those attempting to ordain women. So it seems they are even more shaken now than they were before.

Your mental mindset that dissenters aren’t “really” a part of the Catholic Church has blinded you to the reality that this issue has the potential to tear the Catholic Church apart.
The only ones trying to raise the “ante” so to speak are people like you that keep pressing the Vatican to unequivocally make an infallibility proclamation knowing full well that the Church is naturally, and appropriately, reluctant to use the doctrine of infallibility so readily. The male only priesthood is a long standing practice of the Church and only the Church has the authority to decide when and if the practice changes or whether it is something that should be defined infallible in teaching-not you. The Church has given its reason in the encyclical issued under Paul VI (link provided above). As far as "tear the Catholic Church apart “. As Ronald Reagan once said to his opponents, " there you go again” in this case here again you are trying to bully the Church (and members of the faithful laity) by putting forth an extreme consequence (raising the ante) that is not going to happen, again in order to get your argument more power. There is an old formula, ’ where the church is, is where the bishop resides’, the Church is not going to be torn apart if you choose not to be in it.

Given the number of your posts, the nature of your views and the display you attempt to make with your knowledge, you are appearing as just a hack. Feel free to comment on and help to explain what the Church is doing with its teaching but not in a way to advance your own secular agenda. But it seems your analysis ultimately has the goal of attacking the nature of apostolic succession by attmepting to show how the Church is ‘inconsistent’ or not ‘clear’ with what it is doing in this area. Even if that were the case, and I am not sure it is, the Church can ultimately correct itself if needed as it more fully understand the deposit of faith. And again it can decide what it deems infallible and what it does not-it has the authority to do so-you do not.

The Church is not like, and never will be like, modern democratic institutions-and nor should it- for that is not how it was founded or how it understands its own nature. Thus, quit bringing in the modern mindset of “everybody gets to do what everyone else gets to do” to the Church. The Church is a different reality and Christ gave the apostles and their decendants the authority to reveal His Nature and Will through the institution of the Church. That is the key right-it is Christ’s Will here. What you see as inequalilty is not inequality in the Church’s eyes. To have oppression, yes you must have an oppresser, but you must also have the mind of a victim. The former does not exist but the later seems to here. For you do not have to agree with the Church’s nature and thus practice and teaching-free country-then just go find another church. The Anglican faith accepts women ordination and married clergy I believe.

As to dissention, I am not certain that belongs in the Church, feedback and conversation by the laity yes, but dissention sounds way to democratic. Women ordination is mostly just an attempt to use the office of the priesthood for another " social " advancement for women, but the Church is about defining how and in what way Christ is calling all of us to serve Him. God bless.
 
That’s the only vehicle for infallibility that is within the Vatican’s power to choose. For infallibility by the ordinary magisterium, it’s too late to do anything about it now. Either something was taught infallibly by the Church’s magisterium throughout history or it wasn’t. There isn’t anything the Vatican can do about it now.
Since it is not papal infallibility the Vatican cannot, of course, by virtue of its own power make it infallible. But it seems rather that the Pope and the Bishops can have the role of confirming or verifying that something has indeed been taught infallibly by the ordinary magisterium. Confirming or verifying it-- making it manifest-- does lie within the Pope’s power, I would suppose, even if making it infallible by means of the ordinary magisterium is not. This distinction surely holds.
…If you read the theological debates on the subject, it is clear that virtually nothing is known for sure about the verification of the historical conditions that must be present for a teaching to be infallibly by the ordinary magisterium. Thus it is even more puzzling that the CDF has decided to declare that several Church teachings are infallible by the ordinary magisterium without even bothering to settle the theological debate about exactly what historical conditions need to be verified.
Since you expand on this below, I’ll treat this below.
…the following condition must hold: Every (or nearly every) Catholic bishop must have taught that (1) women cannot be ordained priests (2) not just by church law but by divine law, and (3) that it is mandatory that Catholics agree with (1) and (2) on pain of anathema.
I think you are right that it need be by divine law and not merely Church law, but you are wrong if you claim that it need be explicitly intended by each bishop. It could merely be implicitly intended, and this would be completely coherent with the development of doctrine. And also, if one prohibits it because of Church law, it does not follow that it cannot also be implicitly prohibited by reason of divine law.
So for how many bishops throughout time can this be verified? In order to verify the strength of the language used in promulgating the teaching for point (3), it must be considerably stronger than the language used to condemn female altar servers, for example, Pope Benedict XIV’s encyclical Allatae Sunt (26 July 1755):
…to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution…"
Why does it have to be stronger language? This strikes me as being, perhaps, a capricious criterion. The question about whether something can be reformed is about the nature of the object of the prohibition, not the strength with which it is prohibited. For any thing which is important, and prohibited, it does seem it ought to be done so forcefully. Take, for instance, clerical celibacy in the west. Ought we not to denounce disobedience to this strongly? Yet this doesn’t mean that it is irreformable. As long as it has the force of a discipline it certainly ought to be prohibited forcefully.

I’ll treat verification below, with this quote:
You are misreading me completely. The historical fact that must be verified for a doctrine to be infallible by the ordinary magisterium is whether or not it has been taught unanimously by all of the members of the college of Catholic bishops thoughout the history of the Catholic Church. The conventional theological wisdom prior to the 1990’s was that this historical condition was so intractable to verify that it could never really be known for certain whether any given teaching was infallible by the ordinary magisterium.
Your view on verification is shown to be absurd by your own conclusion: the idea that it is in principle impossible to know that any one doctrine is infallible by means of the ordinary magisterium. If there is such a thing as the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium (and since an ecumenical council has said there is, there surely is), then such a position, at least practically, is a denial that any sort of charism exists for the Church.

I think the position is obviously absurd for other reasons, though. You are treating the question of ordinary infallibility as a historical question. Now, it is the case that no doctrine of faith can be known definitively through historical inquiry. Historical inquiry cannot afford us the sort of certainty which faith demands. It is absurd, therefore, to claim that what would be necessary and sufficient to establish a matter of faith is a historical inquiry. It could never be sufficient, even if it could in some sense be necessary. For a matter of faith is held with unswerving certainty, but purely historical inquiry is held according to probability. Historical inquiry can show us the fittingness of a doctrine, but surely it cannot demonstrate it.

Besides, it is not the mind of the Church that we would literally need positive evidence from every single bishop there ever was in order to establish the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium-- no more than the dictum of Vincent of Lerins is meant to be taken in such a fundamentalist way, at least. If we are abandoning being fundamentalists in other ways, then why ought we be so fundamentalist when it comes to interpreting what the Church allegedly means when it looks for what has been always and everywhere taught?

God bless,
Rob
 
The Vatican raised the ante again last year when the CDF enacted a latae sententiae excommunication for those attempting to ordain women. So it seems they are even more shaken now than they were before.

Your mental mindset that dissenters aren’t “really” a part of the Catholic Church has blinded you to the reality that this issue has the potential to tear the Catholic Church apart.
Are they shaken, or are they merely giving an appropriate penalty for something which can often be done in secret?
The Church’s consistent practice before Vatican II has been that Popes are not to enter and pray inside of a Muslim mosque. Popes are not to bow and kiss the Islamic Koran. This consistent practice has been changed.
bobzills,

Does this practice belong to the deposit of the faith?
Yes. The Church teaches that men and women are equal yet the Church has been dominated by men at every level from the Pope to the parish priest since at least the third century contrary to the practice of the early Church in which women were leaders of communities. It is not simply a question of ordination but of power, authority and jurisdiction.
  1. The Church continues to emphasize that women are equal to men in human dignity. Are you implying then, that excluding women from the priesthood implies that women have lesser human dignity than men do? If so, for what reasons do you think this is true? Please make as explicit an argument as you can.
  2. “women were leaders of communities” Regardless of whether women were leaders of communities (which is a vague statement, in what sense, exactly, were they leaders?), they were never ordained to the presbyterate.
  3. Don’t you think it’s too much of a post-modern move to simply accuse the Church of a power play? It comes very easily to many contemporary discussions to simply accuse those who have power of doing things for the sake of power and domination, but I think this is because the contemporary discussion has been very impoverished by recent turns in philosophy. It is more or less assumed that man is merely a political animal, and no more than that, and that politics is simply power. Obviously on such a view, we’re going to blame everyone in power for acting merely on power… but since any Christian knows that man is far more than a mere political animal and that human interactions have things more valuable than power, including truth and love, such objections just don’t ring true.
God bless,
Rob
 
Are they shaken, or are they merely giving an appropriate penalty for something which can often be done in secret?

bobzills,

Does this practice belong to the deposit of the faith?
  1. The Church continues to emphasize that women are equal to men in human dignity. Are you implying then, that excluding women from the priesthood implies that women have lesser human dignity than men do? If so, for what reasons do you think this is true? Please make as explicit an argument as you can.
  2. “women were leaders of communities” Regardless of whether women were leaders of communities (which is a vague statement, in what sense, exactly, were they leaders?), they were never ordained to the presbyterate.
  3. Don’t you think it’s too much of a post-modern move to simply accuse the Church of a power play? It comes very easily to many contemporary discussions to simply accuse those who have power of doing things for the sake of power and domination, but I think this is because the contemporary discussion has been very impoverished by recent turns in philosophy. It is more or less assumed that man is merely a political animal, and no more than that, and that politics is simply power. Obviously on such a view, we’re going to blame everyone in power for acting merely on power… but since any Christian knows that man is far more than a mere political animal and that human interactions have things more valuable than power, including truth and love, such objections just don’t ring true.
God bless,
Rob
Thanks Rob for correcting the record on number 2 and excellent point on number 3. Thanks for the assist.
 
Are you implying then, that excluding women from the priesthood implies that women have lesser human dignity than men do? If so, for what reasons do you think this is true? Please make as explicit an argument as you can.
Do you deny that the Church has been dominated by men at every level from the Pope to the parish priest contrary to the practice of the early Church in which women were leaders of communities? Surely that is explicit evidence that, apart from a limited role in convents, women have been excluded from all positions of power, authority and jurisdiction within the Church.
Regardless of whether women were leaders of communities (which is a vague statement, in what sense, exactly, were they leaders?), they were never ordained to the presbyterate.
Ordained Women in the Early Church: A Documentary History: Kevin Madigan
Later texts support these early portraits of women, both in exemplifying their prominence and confirming their leadership roles (Acts 17:4, 12). Certainly the most prominent among these in the ancient church was Mary Magdalene. A series of spectacular 19th and 20th century discoveries of Christian texts in Egypt dating to the second and third century have yielded a treasury of new information… Her role as “apostle to the apostles” is frequently explored, especially in considering her faith in contrast to that of the male disciples who refuse to believe her testimony.
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/women.html
Don’t you think it’s too much of a post-modern move to simply accuse the Church of a power play?
An argumentum ad hominem.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top