Women in the Priesthood

[mlchance]

Mark & Marilyn:

In other words, (re. w. “artificial birth control, FT has “freed” women to become mere sex toys.”)

Ludicrous. The real feminists, like the pioneering Lucretia Mott, objected to contraception precisely because it reduced women to mere sex toys, to mere objects who could be used by men without consequence.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JamesG]

Men and women are different physically, mentally, and spirtually

We are most like the spirt of God when we are perfect mothers and perfect fathers. This is what it means to be created in the image of God.

In that sense a preist is a father of the church that cares for the bride of christ.

In another sense a nun is the mother of the church.

To suggest that a mother is a victem of a father doesn’t make any sense.

It is also stupid to suggest that a mother might want to be a father or that a father might want to be a mother.

We should all thank God for his creation. Thank him for making us different and respect each other for those differences.

 

[Mike_Dye]

Well this silly thread has been around awhile and there are still no female priests guess what Marilyn&(mark ), this thread can go on for another thousand years and there will still be no female priests! So why not just give it up and let mark get back to the dishes!

 

[stanley123]

Mike Dye:

Well this silly thread has been around awhile and there are still no female priests guess what Marilyn&(mark ), this thread can go on for another thousand years and there will still be no female priests! So why not just give it up and let mark get back to the dishes!

Before Vatican II, people might have said that for another thousand years there will be no altar girls, for another thousand years there will be no Communion in the hand, for another thousand years, there will be no profane rock and roll Peter Paul and MAry music and clapping of hands in Church during Mass, for another thousand years there will be no Communion services conducted entirely by women serving at the altar, for another thousand years there will be no change on the policy of marraige annulments, for another thousand years, the sermons at Mass will only be given by the priest (which is not the policy in Buffalo NY), for another thousand years we will still have to fast from midnight before receiving Holy Communion, etc.
However, within 50 years everything has changed and only those who follow the old preVatican II ways of Archbishop Lefebvre have been excommunicated and condemned to their eternal damnation in hell for it, as they are said to be adhering to a schism if they adhere to SSPX and the old preVatican II ways.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

None of the items cited – altar girls, Latin in the Mass, musical choices, etc. – is to be found in the Deposit of the Faith.

However, the attributes of the Sacraments ARE to be found there, and therefore cannot be changed.

It is disturbing to see apparent confusion manifested, where a change in a custom or practise is cited as a basis for ignoring or changing, or characterizing as changeable, what is given to the Church in the Deposit of the Faith.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[mlchance]

Gerry Hunter:

It is disturbing to see apparent confusion manifested…

You only find it disturbing, perhaps, because you’re not more Catholic than the Pope nor more in-the-know about what qualifies as doctrine than those who are.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mercygate]

mlchance:

You only find it disturbing, perhaps, because you’re not more Catholic than the Pope nor more in-the-know about what qualifies as doctrine than those who are.

– Mark L. Chance.

Gerry isn’t confused; Gerry is responding to (ahem) “confusion.”

 

[Donna_P]

Mark & Marilyn:

There is no sound or convincing reason for excluding women from religion altogether, or from high respectable ranks, or from the priesthood. Our Lord has never been on record ordering women specifically out of any position of high responsibility.
Women have made considerable contributions to the Church, religion and religious culture thoughout history.

Yes, there is. Jesus. Until he bestows the priesthood on women, we cannot go against His plan.

Jesus is the eternal Bridegroom. Priests are representatives of Christ. In Persona Christa.

So a woman would not be the right “matter” to be a priest.

Just as Wonderbread is made up of the same physical things that the Host is. Wonderbread cannot be a Host. It is not the right matter.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Stanley123:

only those who follow the old preVatican II ways of Archbishop Lefebvre have been excommunicated

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr…no. The women who attempted priestly ordination were also excommunicated.

See here:

Decree on Attempted Ordination of Some Catholic Women
From Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Dec 21, 2002
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFATORD.HTM%between%

Keep holding your breath Stanley, it’ll happen soon, I’m sure of it.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Wow, all I have to say is that considering some of the things Mark & Marilyn and stanley123 are saying, the Church is in rough shape when it comes to “echoing on” the faith (catechesis).

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

mlchance:

You only find it disturbing, perhaps, because you’re not more Catholic than the Pope nor more in-the-know about what qualifies as doctrine than those who are.

– Mark L. Chance.

Perhaps not, to overlook the obvious presumptuous nature of that observation and reply in its terms. :tsktsk:

On the question at hand, women’s “ordination”, those who exercise the Church’s Magisterium have left no room for doubt about the doctrinal status of the issue: “No women priests” is de fide, and that’s as doctrinal as it gets. And since that’s been published, being “in-the-know” on this question simply means being able to read.

As for not being more Catholic than the Pope, just who in the Church is called to be any LESS Catholic than the Pope, even though they lack Episcopal Ordination an Magisterial Authority?

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Mark_Marilyn]

Mike Dye:

MARILYN & mark
Your agenda was quite transparent from your very first post! I hope that by now you understand that this is probably not the best forum to try to convert those less enlightened than you! I believe that you are really nice people and because I think that; I can’t help but advise you that your time would be better spent elsewhere.

Particularly to Mike Dye & MLChance:

Actually, we all DO BENEFIT from observing examples and dialogs of how other people think, who are often very different from our own "head-space," including religious conservatives (or "ultra-")

and smart, resourceful opponents. By the way, to assume that others are “less enlightened than you” or us or certain authors would often be a big mistake. What did Our Lord say about “those who exalt themselves” …?
We don’t take arguments personally, as some do, and often choose to be simply being the proverbial fly on the wall, reading some threads without logging on, which saves much effort and energy. It’s often more interesting to examine not what is said but HOW it is said and WHY one eventually arrives at certain conclusions while others do not.
Aside from other observations and impressions, it is clear that people see what they want to see:
e.g.-- The alleged fact that certain Great Abbesses and even a saint had “bishop’s mitre in her [their] possession” gives one the impression that some abbesses had clerical authority or powers and gives one “reasons” to suspect that some lines may have been erased from history. -or-
The fact that Jesus Christ took male form and so on, gives some the impression (or fallacy) that male form is “superior, more perfected” and so on, or (re. 12 male apostles), since He said nothing about female clerical authority or priesthood, that is the same as if He had actually come out and expressly forbid women in the clergy or even any status at all. (The allegation that there was ever a female apostle Junia or any disciples is controversial) Still others, farther to the religious Right, take this and St. Paul out of context to mean that women must categorically be placed on subordinate positions and absolutely ruled by men. We’re sure most members, including conservatives, agree that extreme authoritarianism does not follow from certain isolated quotes in context by our Lord and some saints. Vatican II refutes the myth that women are to blame for Original Sin or are undeserving of normal human respect.
Sincerely, Mark & Marilyn

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Mark & Marilyn:

Particularly to Mike Dye & MLChance:

Actually, we all DO BENEFIT from observing examples and dialogs of how other people think, who are often very different from our own "head-space," including religious conservatives (or "ultra-")

and smart, resourceful opponents. By the way, to assume that others are “less enlightened than you” or us or certain authors would often be a big mistake. What did Our Lord say about “those who exalt themselves” …?
We don’t take arguments personally, as some do, and often choose to be simply being the proverbial fly on the wall, reading some threads without logging on, which saves much effort and energy. It’s often more interesting to examine not what is said but HOW it is said and WHY one eventually arrives at certain conclusions while others do not.
Aside from other observations and impressions, it is clear that people see what they want to see:
e.g.-- The alleged fact that certain Great Abbesses and even a saint had “bishop’s mitre in her [their] possession” gives one the impression that some abbesses had clerical authority or powers and gives one “reasons” to suspect that some lines may have been erased from history. -or-
The fact that Jesus Christ took male form and so on, gives some the impression (or fallacy) that male form is “superior, more perfected” and so on, or (re. 12 male apostles), since He said nothing about female clerical authority or priesthood, that is the same as if He had actually come out and expressly forbid women in the clergy or even any status at all. (The allegation that there was ever a female apostle Junia or any disciples is controversial) Still others, farther to the religious Right, take this and St. Paul out of context to mean that women must categorically be placed on subordinate positions and absolutely ruled by men. We’re sure most members, including conservatives, agree that extreme authoritarianism does not follow from certain isolated quotes in context by our Lord and some saints. Vatican II refutes the myth that women are to blame for Original Sin or are undeserving of normal human respect.
Sincerely, Mark & Marilyn

Peace be with you!

Not ordaining women to the priesthood has absolutely nothing to do with them being “less” than men somehow. Just as men cannot physically give birth to a child, woman cannot physically perform the consecration, the sacrifice of the Mass. That is because that sacrifice is the sacrifice that Christ made on Calvary and it was the sacrifice of the bridegroom for the bride. My girlfriend (who is FAR from the “housewife” type of female) said that she’s getting sick of people thinking that men and women should be completely the same in everything. There are simply things that only men can do or only women can do.

I could apply to be an egg donor or a wet nurse, but because of my gender, I would be denied the job. Is that sex discrimination? I should be able to recieve equal treatment, should I not? But of course it would be absurd for me to apply to be either of these things. I would be laughed out of the office because it is a fact that I am not physically capable of doing these things. No matter how much I may want to give birth or donate eggs or whatever, I can’t because I simply cannot do it. It is the same thing with the priesthood. It is the role of a father and a bridegroom. Women cannot be fathers and they cannot be bridegrooms.

Women can still live out a religious life doing ministry work. If they truly want to serve God, they’ll serve Him in whatever way they can. And, as Pope John Paul II said, if you look at the honor bestowed upon the Virgin Mary (who is the highest of all creatures that God ever created, higher even than the archangels) there is no way that you can say that not ordaining women to the priesthood is making them lesser than men. Mary was never ordained to the priesthood.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Mike_Dye]

I have to admit that Marylin and little guy can be depended on to post a “hot button” topic. What is remarkable to me is how many fall into their trap. I believe they think they can influence a few others to their cause by repeating the same retoric over and over. So far it hasn’t worked here… but why not ignore them…by responding you just feed Marilyns ego…I guess the plus side is if that happens Marks life may be somewhat easier. I still think the best way to make an annoying person go away is to ignore them.

 

[monina]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!
It is the same thing with the priesthood. It is the role of a father and a bridegroom.
In Christ,
Rand

If only men can be priests because the priest is a bridegroom, why can men be members of the Church, which is the Bride of Christ? Shouldn’t it follow then that men cannot be part of the Bride of Christ? It seems disingenuous to say:
*Priest= Bridegroom (must be Male) *
Church= Bride (can be both Male and Female).

Also, I’ve never understood the argument that since Jesus chose only male apostles, the Church can only ordain men. Jesus also chose bearded Jewish fisherman–so should we only ordain bearded Jewish fishermen?

 

[mercygate]

monina:

If only men can be priests because the priest is a bridegroom, why can men be members of the Church, which is the Bride of Christ? Shouldn’t it follow then that men cannot be part of the Bride of Christ? It seems disingenuous to say:
*Priest= Bridegroom (must be Male) *
Church= Bride (can be both Male and Female).

Also, I’ve never understood the argument that since Jesus chose only male apostles, the Church can only ordain men. Jesus also chose bearded Jewish fisherman–so should we only ordain bearded Jewish fishermen?

Men have beards, whether they shave them or not. (Actually most Orthodox priests do wear beards.) Wearing a beard is not essential to “maleness.”

Jesus, the Great High Priest, was not a fisherman. Matthew was not a fisherman. So being a fisherman is not essential to priesthood. Being either male or female is essential to humanity; hermaphroditism or sexual identity disorders are not normative.

 

[JSmitty2005]

mercygate:

hermaphroditism or sexual identity disorders are not normative.

And yet this is essentially the goal of these feminists. Well, maybe not the goal, but the outcome will inevitably be a conflation of the sexes. This is about the queerest thread I’ve ever subscribed to. The Scriptures, the Early Church, Tradition, and the current Magisterium are all unanimous (sp?) in that women will not and can never be ordained. Period. End of story. No questions asked. Rome has spoken, it is settled. Now, get over it you whiny misandrous liberals and go gripe about something else somewhere else.

 

[monina]

JSmitty2005:

The Scriptures, the Early Church, Tradition, and the current Magisterium are all unanimous (sp?) in that women will not and can never be ordained. Period. End of story. No questions asked. Rome has spoken, it is settled.

I understand that this is an unchangeable issue.

I just want to understand the Church’s rationale! And I want to be able to express and defend my Church’s views to pro-women’s ordination folk. When they bring up certain arguments, I want to be able to provide a thoughtful answer.

I have faith in the Church’s teaching. I’m just seeking understanding…what’s so whiny and wrong with that???

 

[fusilierlx]

stanley123:

Why are these clergy debating the issue, if it is settled infallibly?

They would be the ones to answer that. The point is that they may as well be debating whether the Church should make men mothers. Male mothers, female priests-- both categorical impossibilities. Not even the Church can do that which cannot be done.

JSA

 

[JSmitty2005]

monina:

I understand that this is an unchangeable issue.

I just want to understand the Church’s rationale! And I want to be able to express and defend my Church’s views to pro-women’s ordination folk. When they bring up certain arguments, I want to be able to provide a thoughtful answer.

I have faith in the Church’s teaching. I’m just seeking understanding…what’s so whiny and wrong with that???

Sorry about my little rant. It wasn’t directed specifically at you, but rather the ones that just won’t let it go and who are actually *questioning * the Church on this issue rather than just asking about it.