Women in Traditional Parishes

[WoundedIcon]

Quite honestly I wish I could find a parish like that. Every time I go to the parishes around here I feel like I’m drowning in estrogen. Not trying to sound sexist, it’s just very unbalanced. I think I’m the only man my age I’ve seen at the last three parishes I attended enough Sat/Sun masses to tell. Women are usually the lectors, the music is sentimental and effeminate, the homilies are almost always about something nice and pleasant (like a homily that completely ignored the readings and talked about mothers like they were all June Cleavers on Mother’s Day.) The rosary is led by women, it’s primarily women attending (many many of them elderly), and there’s usually just a tiny smidgen of women there who would be marriageable by me, and as I said they probably can’t find men their own age there either. As a 21 y/o metalhead gothic man who admires St. Michael and likes to take action, debate, and is opposed to the whole pretty equals holy mentality - basically someone the inverse of church culture - I feel like I’m being run out just by being there. I’d love to take an active role in parish life but I feel like a illegal Mexican trying to work with Republican yuppies (analogically speaking).

We aren’t absent because we’ve abdicated our duties (which is a sexist assumption to make) we’re absent because church makes our skin crawl because it’s unaccommodating to our ways as males.

 

[LemonAndLime]

This is the Traditional Catholicism subforum. The traditional history of service at Mass has been to have male altar servers only. The option to include females is a very new addition. It’s not “dismissive” to prefer the traditional over an innovatation, especially in the Traditional Catholicism forum.

But still, I believe that having male only servers has nothing to do with scripture and religion, especially when I hear people say that it’s inappropriate to have women at the altar when that is exactly where Our Lady was.

 

[beafedor]

Quite honestly I wish I could find a parish like that. Every time I go to the parishes around here I feel like I’m drowning in estrogen. Not trying to sound sexist, it’s just very unbalanced. I think I’m the only man my age I’ve seen at the last three parishes I attended enough Sat/Sun masses to tell. Women are usually the lectors, the music is sentimental and effeminate, the homilies are almost always about something nice and pleasant (like a homily that completely ignored the readings and talked about mothers like they were all June Cleavers on Mother’s Day.) The rosary is led by women, it’s primarily women attending (many many of them elderly), and there’s usually just a tiny smidgen of women there who would be marriageable by me, and as I said they probably can’t find men their own age there either. As a 21 y/o metalhead gothic man who admires St. Michael and likes to take action, debate, and is opposed to the whole pretty equals holy mentality - basically someone the inverse of church culture - I feel like I’m being run out just by being there. I’d love to take an active role in parish life but I feel like a illegal Mexican trying to work with Republican yuppies (analogically speaking).

We aren’t absent because we’ve abdicated our duties (which is a sexist assumption to make) we’re absent because church makes our skin crawl because it’s unaccommodating to our ways as males.

What you are saying is most interesting. I too attend the same kind of church and sometimes I feel that I don’t belong but as long as the Priest consecrates the bread and wine in an appropriate way and I can worship Jesus Christ, I’m taking the rest as a little sacrifice.
Unfortunately there has been a trend of women being the spiritual head of the family since the 1960s. I don’t know if it has to do with the ‘sexual revolution’ and contraception mentality (I can do whatever I want without consequences and I have no God, no master). I have seen that especially in Europe where I grew up.
God Bless You for being different and I pray that your generation will make a difference.

To answer the OP, yes there is a place for women in the Church in different ministries such as women bible study, hospitality, linens, respect life, flowers, religious education, rummage sale to benefit the church…

 

[laszlo]

I newer saw female ushers, or donation collectors. neither in my liberal territorial parish, not in my very conservative home parish. In the past the sacristan was sometimes women, and than she collected the donations

There are women readers, and in my territorial parish almost always a family (man, women, children) brings the bread and wine to the altar, which is the right thing to do. In my home parish there is no such offertory process, neither extraordinary Eucharistic ministers.

In my home parish the musical directors are females, and the members of the choirs about 6 to 4 females. They sing from the back upstairs.

In the real traditional Masses neither men nor women were participating, except the altar server boys, and the the sacristan. The majority of the masses were low mass, and the music was from the back upstairs always.

 

[TrueLight]

If you’re looking to serve the parish, you could always just aske the Pastor where some help is needed. He maybe needs someone to run the once-a-week Bingo or paint the community room or trim up the grounds once in awhile. 'Wouldn’t be glamourous, but it would be job security

That’s a good idea. Maybe I’ll ask the pastor.

 

[Will_S]

But still, I believe that having male only servers has nothing to do with scripture and religion, especially when I hear people say that it’s inappropriate to have women at the altar when that is exactly where Our Lady was.

Our Lady was not “serving at the altar”. She was a witness to the sacrifice. Which you also are if you are sitting in the pews.

 

[Cider]

I wonder if women are encouraged to be seen and not heard? Most women in the parish veil, and that in itself makes you less visible. Not to say that’s a bad thing.

The SSPX chapel I used to go to before we moved had been managed by a local woman for years.

 

[TrueLight]

The SSPX chapel I used to go to before we moved had been managed by a local woman for years.

Really! She was like an office manager?

 

[Cider]

Really! She was like an office manager?

Yes, we had visiting priests most of the time. She had the keys, she organized who would pick up father at the airport and handled the day to day stuff.

 

[TrueLight]

Yes, we had visiting priests most of the time. She had the keys, she organized who would pick up father at the airport and handled the day to day stuff.

I can see why that would not be a problem. It is sort of a secretarial role, which is a traditional role for women.

 

[Monica4316]

You are talking about things that are “very Mary” yet you also dismiss female altar servers.

Who served at the altar of Jesus’ sacrifice? The women in Jesus’ life. Including Our Lady.

Therefore I think female altar servers are very appropriate.

Our Lady did not serve at the Last Supper. At the Cross, she prayed and shared in His suffering.

Also we are talking about the EF Mass, in which female altar servers are not allowed.

Furthermore, in the Church documents for the Novus Ordo Mass, it says that altar boys should be encouraged.

God bless

 

[JReducation]

I recently started attending a very traditional parish.

Of course, I do not believe women should be priests, but I noticed there were no:

Women lectors, not even in prayer services outside of mass.
Women who lead the praying of the rosary
Women who pass around the collection baskets.
Women ushers

So I asked about it and I was told, yeah this is a traditional parish. Women are sort of in the background, but it wasn’t said in a sarcastic way.

I didn’t think collecting the offering was a male/female thing.

Is this the way it is in traditional parishes like FSSP/SPPX parishes or any parishes that mostly celebrate the EF?

Thanks.

These are not really rules related to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. They’re local “customs” or preferences. The Church’s regulations only concern the mass itself. Things like taking up the collection, greeting people, ushering, leading the rosary and other functions that usually take place in a parish during or outside mass are not governed by Church rules.

We never had those rules even before Vatican II. Prior to Vatican II, women demurring, if I can use that term, was a cultural thing not a Catholic rule. This was simply the way that Europeans and their former colonies did things.

What you may be seeing is simply a community of people that are practicing cultural customs. They can’t be called ecclesial customs or regulations, because they were not imposed by the Church and were common outside the Church at one time.

In fact, the Catholic Church was probably the most liberal institution when it came to women. Long before there was a women’s movement, Catholic women were very independent and powerful. It’s just not that noticeable in light of today’s culture. However, if you look at it in light of the world prior to Vatican II, Catholic women rather liberal compared to their Protestant counterparts.

We have a long history of women founders of religious congregations, monasteries and even some orders. Men did not govern these communities. In women’s monasteries, the Abbess ruled and no man ruled over her. In a religious congregation the Mother Superior ruled. In Catholic schools, hospitals, orphanages and other Catholic institutions the sisters ruled.

These women ran their own institutions, managed their own property, had money and budgets, made laws that governed them, traveled around the world without permission and supervision from men. Some abbesses ran dioceses. A few wonderful examples are: Teresa of Avila, Mother Teresa, Frances Xavier Cabrini, Katherine Drexel, and Elizabeth Ann Seton. These women were missionaries, pioneers in their fields of ministry and leaders in the Church. Mother Teresa was the most recent of these powerful women and she began her work in the world circa 1946, during the WW II era, but long before Vatican II.

No one dared to contradict them, not even the bishops. They were a force to be reckoned with. Teresa of Avila had a wit that could outshine any bishop or Jesuit. Mother Teresa made Pope Pius XII and Pope John Paul II nervous, though they loved her.

Elizabeth Ann Seton gave Archbishop Carroll a run for his money. When he gave her the statutes that St. Vincent de Paul had written for the Daughters of Charity so that she could model her congregation on St. Louise de Marillac, Elizabeth gave them back to the Archbishop and said that she would not lead the new congregation because there was no place for a mother in the statutes. Elizabeth simply told Archbishop Carroll, “I’m a mother first.” Archbishop Carroll had to add to the statutes that those sisters who were mothers could keep their children and raise them. As I understand it, there were two widows with children in the original group.

 

[JReducation]

I’m not sure if I agree with the image that some people paint of being like Mary, because I would never say that Teresa of Avila or Mother Teresa were unlike Mary. I believe the opposite. They were very much like Mary. Like Mary, they conformed to Christ in all things.

If we look at Mary, she was a very strong figure, not a retiring figure at all. We know that she lived in different cities, that she followed the Church as it grew. She did not spend her life in retirement in Nazareth. We see her in Jerusalem when Jesus is crucified. Jerusalem was more than two days away from Nazareth in those days. Why was she there? She did not live there. The only conclusion is that she followed her son and his disciples to Jerusalem. We hear from the Church Fathers that she was in Ephasus after the Ascension. Why? She was with the Church, probably with John, according to Polycarp. Luke tells us that she went to the Hill Country to visit Elizabeth. Scholars believe that this may be the area that we call the Golan Heights, which is quite a distance from Nazareth. Regardless of Elizabeth’s physical address, she did not live in the same city. Mary goes out to her. Back then, women did not travel without their husbands. But tradition does not mention Joseph being present in Elizabeth’s home or at John’s birth. However, it tells us that Mary was present and probably three months pregnant when she returned home and rejoined Joseph.

We also see Mary in Cana. From the wording of the story, one can extrapolate that Jesus was with her, not the other way around. She was the invited guest and Jesus and his friends went with her to the wedding. This is inferred in the familiarity between Mary and the servants. No one approaches Jesus with the concern about the wine, as would have been the proper thing to do. Mary speaks to the servants with authority, “Do whatever he tells you.” It is probable that she died in Ephesus, which is a long way from Nazareth, if not in Jerusalem.

We tend to paint Christian women, especially Mary, as more demure and retiring than is historically true. I’ve often wondered if it may be a cultural influence, more than a Catholic influence. The Orthodox have the same stories about Mary, independent of the Western Church. They also have ancient legends that portray a more dynamic Mary and their nuns are also very independent and very influential in their Churches.

My answer to your question is that this absence of women in the forefront has nothing to do with the Extraordinary Form of the Mass or even with being Catholic. It’s really the culture or preference of a community. If you begin to tell women that they cannot do things that are not prohibited, that’s when you fall into gender discrimination. If women want to assume a more retiring role, of their own free will, there’s no rule that says they cannot do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[5Loaves]

It’s not that I mind per se. I thought about it yesterday because I was thinking of how I can be of service to a parish during my conversion process. One simple way I thought about was collecting the offering. Although they probably would have to know someone better before entrusting them with money.

But I noticed I didn’t see any women ever collecting in that parish.

I would like to be an active part of any parish, so I was just looking at options.

Your desire to serve your parish is surely a sign of the Holy Spirit at work in you. (It’s frustrating to me that your parish doesn’t have year round RCIA where you could be in a group exploring this in your parish… oh well… )

Are there deacons in the parish? If so and if they are married, which is more often the case than not, then try connecting with one of the deacon wives. Deacon’s wives are one of the unused gifts in many parishes. She would know many of the other parishioners and the different service work going on in the parish. My Latin Church parish has a handbook that lists all the “ministries” as they call them. The list and descriptions of each is also on the parish website.

I consider myself to be in a “traditional parish”, albeit a very traditional Byzantine Catholic parish. In the East our deacons’ wives play a very important role. My Latin parish, which only celebrates the OF of the Mass is still quite clueless about what the deacon is there for let alone his wife, who was with him every day in his seminary training and in their previous parish was I gather put to better use than she is in this parish.

Regarding some of the other questions and comments, in the local parish which has been celebrating the EF Mass for decades and is kind of THE traditional parish in this area I was told by a member that some parishioners oppose the Latin class that is taught there to help people with the Latin used in liturgy, opposed because a woman teaches it. I don’t want to see women in most roles in liturgy but opposition to a woman teaching, who is extremely well qualified in this case, seems odd to me. Apparently the priests accept it because she teaches at the church.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m not sure if I agree with the image that some people paint of being like Mary, because I would never say that Teresa of Avila or Mother Teresa were unlike Mary. I believe the opposite. They were very much like Mary. Like Mary, they conformed to Christ in all things.

If we look at Mary, she was a very strong figure, not a retiring figure at all. We know that she lived in different cities, that she followed the Church as it grew. She did not spend her life in retirement in Nazareth. We see her in Jerusalem when Jesus is crucified. Jerusalem was more than two days away from Nazareth in those days. Why was she there? She did not live there. The only conclusion is that she followed her son and his disciples to Jerusalem. We hear from the Church Fathers that she was in Ephasus after the Ascension. Why? She was with the Church, probably with John, according to Polycarp. Luke tells us that she went to the Hill Country to visit Elizabeth. Scholars believe that this may be the area that we call the Golan Heights, which is quite a distance from Nazareth. Regardless of Elizabeth’s physical address, she did not live in the same city. Mary goes out to her. Back then, women did not travel without their husbands. But tradition does not mention Joseph being present in Elizabeth’s home or at John’s birth. However, it tells us that Mary was present and probably three months pregnant when she returned home and rejoined Joseph.

We also see Mary in Cana. From the wording of the story, one can extrapolate that Jesus was with her, not the other way around. She was the invited guest and Jesus and his friends went with her to the wedding. This is inferred in the familiarity between Mary and the servants. No one approaches Jesus with the concern about the wine, as would have been the proper thing to do. Mary speaks to the servants with authority, “Do whatever he tells you.” It is probable that she died in Ephesus, which is a long way from Nazareth, if not in Jerusalem.

We tend to paint Christian women, especially Mary, as more demure and retiring than is historically true. I’ve often wondered if it may be a cultural influence, more than a Catholic influence. The Orthodox have the same stories about Mary, independent of the Western Church. They also have ancient legends that portray a more dynamic Mary and their nuns are also very independent and very influential in their Churches.

My answer to your question is that this absence of women in the forefront has nothing to do with the Extraordinary Form of the Mass or even with being Catholic. It’s really the culture or preference of a community. If you begin to tell women that they cannot do things that are not prohibited, that’s when you fall into gender discrimination. If women want to assume a more retiring role, of their own free will, there’s no rule that says they cannot do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

This is an excellent post! I never saw Mary in that light.

 

[TrueLight]

Hey there,

This parish is very small. There are no deacons.

There is another parish I am considering joining as well. That one has an RCIA program in Sept. The smaller parish has “instruction” by the priest, but it also starts in Sept. Decisions, decisions.

I feel the smaller parish needs more help. The bigger parish is well known and seems to have more affluent members and seems to need less help, if you understand what I mean.

Your desire to serve your parish is surely a sign of the Holy Spirit at work in you. (It’s frustrating to me that your parish doesn’t have year round RCIA where you could be in a group exploring this in your parish… oh well… )

Are there deacons in the parish? If so and if they are married, which is more often the case than not, then try connecting with one of the deacon wives. Deacon’s wives are one of the unused gifts in many parishes. She would know many of the other parishioners and the different service work going on in the parish. My Latin Church parish has a handbook that lists all the “ministries” as they call them. The list and descriptions of each is also on the parish website.

I consider myself to be in a “traditional parish”, albeit a very traditional Byzantine Catholic parish. In the East our deacons’ wives play a very important role. My Latin parish, which only celebrates the OF of the Mass is still quite clueless about what the deacon is there for let alone his wife, who was with him every day in his seminary training and in their previous parish was I gather put to better use than she is in this parish.

Regarding some of the other questions and comments, in the local parish which has been celebrating the EF Mass for decades and is kind of THE traditional parish in this area I was told by a member that some parishioners oppose the Latin class that is taught there to help people with the Latin used in liturgy, opposed because a woman teaches it. I don’t want to see women in most roles in liturgy but opposition to a woman teaching, who is extremely well qualified in this case, seems odd to me. Apparently the priests accept it because she teaches at the church.

 

[ChemicalBean]

I’m not sure if I agree with the image that some people paint of being like Mary, because I would never say that Teresa of Avila or Mother Teresa were unlike Mary. I believe the opposite. They were very much like Mary. Like Mary, they conformed to Christ in all things.

If we look at Mary, she was a very strong figure, not a retiring figure at all. We know that she lived in different cities, that she followed the Church as it grew. She did not spend her life in retirement in Nazareth. We see her in Jerusalem when Jesus is crucified. Jerusalem was more than two days away from Nazareth in those days. Why was she there? She did not live there. The only conclusion is that she followed her son and his disciples to Jerusalem. We hear from the Church Fathers that she was in Ephasus after the Ascension. Why? She was with the Church, probably with John, according to Polycarp. Luke tells us that she went to the Hill Country to visit Elizabeth. Scholars believe that this may be the area that we call the Golan Heights, which is quite a distance from Nazareth. Regardless of Elizabeth’s physical address, she did not live in the same city. Mary goes out to her. Back then, women did not travel without their husbands. But tradition does not mention Joseph being present in Elizabeth’s home or at John’s birth. However, it tells us that Mary was present and probably three months pregnant when she returned home and rejoined Joseph.

We also see Mary in Cana. From the wording of the story, one can extrapolate that Jesus was with her, not the other way around. She was the invited guest and Jesus and his friends went with her to the wedding. This is inferred in the familiarity between Mary and the servants. No one approaches Jesus with the concern about the wine, as would have been the proper thing to do. Mary speaks to the servants with authority, “Do whatever he tells you.” It is probable that she died in Ephesus, which is a long way from Nazareth, if not in Jerusalem.

We tend to paint Christian women, especially Mary, as more demure and retiring than is historically true. I’ve often wondered if it may be a cultural influence, more than a Catholic influence. The Orthodox have the same stories about Mary, independent of the Western Church. They also have ancient legends that portray a more dynamic Mary and their nuns are also very independent and very influential in their Churches.

My answer to your question is that this absence of women in the forefront has nothing to do with the Extraordinary Form of the Mass or even with being Catholic. It’s really the culture or preference of a community. If you begin to tell women that they cannot do things that are not prohibited, that’s when you fall into gender discrimination. If women want to assume a more retiring role, of their own free will, there’s no rule that says they cannot do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you for this post! It is excellent, and also refreshing to hear a man religious speak so dynamically and reverently of Mary. That was a lot I had never thought of about her, other than courageously being destitute, unmarried and with child. Unfortunately, for me to even marvel at that strength somehow often earns me the label “radical feminist”.

 

[JReducation]

This is an excellent post! I never saw Mary in that light.

The historical Mary is an awesome woman. If I had to go through theology again, I would probably make Mariology my second major. My first major was Mystical and Ascetical Theology. Today they call it Spiritual Theology.

Thank you for this post! It is excellent, and also refreshing to hear a man religious speak so dynamically and reverently of Mary.

I thought all male religious did.

That was a lot I had never thought of about her, other than courageously being destitute, unmarried and with child. Unfortunately, for me to even marvel at that strength somehow often earns me the label “radical feminist”.

How does that make one a radical feminist?

I’m not a woman and I live in awe of some of the heroic women in our Judeo-Christian history.

Mary – 'nuff said above

Teresa of Avila – galloping all over Spain opening monasteries and challenging the Spanish Inquisition

Theresa of Calcutta – stepping out of the habit and into the streets of Calcutta, alone and without money, in the middle of civil war.

Frances Xavier Cabrini – traveling from Italy to the USA, not knowing the language, founding schools and hospitals in several cities, then traveling to Central America, then back to New York, alone and with little money.

Katherine Drexel – the millionaire nun. Taking her father’s millions, traveling across the USA opening schools and hospitals for Native Americans and Blacks at a time when this was unheard of.

Elizabeth Ann Seton – picking up five children, sailing down to Baltimore, than by carriage to the Maryland mountains to open schools for the poor, negotiating with men to make things happen and dealing with the beaurocracy of the new American Church.

Clare of Assisi – the beloved mother of the Franciscan family who negotiated with Pope Gregory IX to give her order autonomy from all male controls. Who wrote into her rule, “let the abbess decide what is the most appropriate dress for the sisters. However, she must take into account culture, climate, local customs and individuals in making her decision.” This was the 13th century when most nuns were handed a habit, whether they liked it or not. Clare is telling them to pick something according to the culture and to the individual tastes. Hellooooooooo. This may sound insignificant today. But it was not insignificant in the 13th century. Any other abbess would have taken a lot of heat for this “liberalism”. Clare did not care.

Brigette – founding an order of men. No woman ever founded an order of men in those days.

Give me a break! We have some pretty heroic ladies in our history. We should be in awe of them. They were gutsy without sacrificing holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[LemonAndLime]

Our Lady did not serve at the Last Supper. At the Cross, she prayed and shared in His suffering.

Also we are talking about the EF Mass, in which female altar servers are not allowed.

Furthermore, in the Church documents for the Novus Ordo Mass, it says that altar boys should be encouraged.

God bless

But she served Christ at the cross, which was the real sacrifice.

If she was good enough to do that, I believe that girls are good enough to serve at the sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Corki]

But she served Christ at the cross, which was the real sacrifice.

If she was good enough to do that, I believe that girls are good enough to serve at the sacrifice of the Mass.

Being an altar server is not about being “good enough”. It’s not a reward or a rank. It is a service. In many traditional parishes, only boys are asked to perform this service. I believe there is one whole diocese in the US where only boys are asked to serve at the altar. In many other countries, only boys serve at the altar. It’s a tradition. A tradition that the Church says is a good one and that should be encouraged.

[47.] It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension.[119] Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these.[120] Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes.[121] Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.[122]

– Redemptionis Sacramentum