Women pastors/preachers in 'Bible only' denominations

  • Thread starter Thread starter Prodigal_Son1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Reading is speaking, I’ll agree with that, but it is reading under the authority of the priest, or in other terms ‘assisting’ him.
In 1 Corinthians 15:34-36 Paul makes no exception for being under the authority or assisting a priest. He plainly says that women are to be silent and not speak. Unless the Catholic Church is in error with female readers, then Paul’s statement cannot literally mean that women cannot speak. There must have been some circumstance in the Corinthian church that nescessitated this comment by Paul and it would not be a general prohibition of speaking.

Similarly with 1 Timothy 2:11-15. In saying that women are not to teach or have authority over men, he goes on to say that a woman will be preserved through child bearing. Where does that leave a barren or single woman? Would Paul urge virginity if child bearing is necessary? Again it would seem then that Paul cannot be laying down a general rule but something that applied to Ephesus at the time of his writing.
 
Reading is speaking, I’ll agree with that, but it is reading under the authority of the priest, or in other terms ‘assisting’ him.
So now we nuance the definition of speaking. First a lector is not a lector. And now women reading is speaking in church but with a “but”? Speaking is speaking. And either women can speak in church today or they can’t. And if they rightfully can now because it was merely a custom of Biblical times that they couldn’t (my view btw) then other customs can be tossed aside. Oh wait maybe not. It’s still up to men only to hear God’s will as to what speaking is allowed today but wasn’t in Biblical times and what isn’t allowed today but may or may not be some day. Sigh. :rolleyes:
 
In 1 Corinthians 15:34-36 Paul makes no exception for being under the authority or assisting a priest. He plainly says that women are to be silent and not speak. Unless the Catholic Church is in error with female readers, then Paul’s statement cannot literally mean that women cannot speak. There must have been some circumstance in the Corinthian church that nescessitated this comment by Paul and it would not be a general prohibition of speaking.

Similarly with 1 Timothy 2:11-15. In saying that women are not to teach or have authority over men, he goes on to say that a woman will be preserved through child bearing. Where does that leave a barren or single woman? Who Paul urge virginity if child bearing is necessary? Again it would seem then that Paul cannot be laying down a general rule but something that applied to Ephesus at the time of his writing.
No no no. The Catholic Church can never be in err. They just define speaking, reading, teaching in all sorts of ways. Reading is speaking. But reading Scripture to the faithful is not teaching of Scripture. It’s just reading it. Stick around. You’ll get it. 😉
 
In 1 Corinthians 15:34-36 Paul makes no exception for being under the authority or assisting a priest. He plainly says that women are to be silent and not speak. Unless the Catholic Church is in error with female readers, then Paul’s statement cannot literally mean that women cannot speak. There must have been some circumstance in the Corinthian church that nescessitated this comment by Paul and it would not be a general prohibition of speaking.

Similarly with 1 Timothy 2:11-15. In saying that women are not to teach or have authority over men, he goes on to say that a woman will be preserved through child bearing. Where does that leave a barren or single woman? Who Paul urge virginity if child bearing is necessary? Again it would seem then that Paul cannot be laying down a general rule but something that applied to Ephesus at the time of his writing.
In the time of these writings, there was a Court of Women in the Temple. Now, being honest, I don’t know exactly how the change came about in the Catholic Church to accept women lectors. It may have to do with the examples you provided with Priscilla and Aquila ‘expounded’ to Apollos the way of the Lord. If you check the interpretation for the Greek word used for ‘expounded’, you’ll see it does not say teach. Also, scriptures do not say how the process went. I don’t want to ‘guess’ for the purposes of supporting my argument, just as I feel it would be wrong for you to assume she was more than assisting her husband, that we know Paul taught for women to be subject too. We know from Romans 16:3, Paul referred to both of them as his ‘helpers’. Helpers work under the authority of, just as lectors work under the authority of the priest.

Another point is, because a Protestant assumes the Catholic Church to be in error makes it ok for them to also be in error? I’m not sure of the message you’re trying to convey with your choice of wording.

In 1 Timothy 2:11, St. Paul states to let women learn in silence with all subjection. In verse 12 he states a woman should not teach or use authority over a man. Adding in speculation of barren or single women has nothing to do with the statement. St. Paul doesn’t specify a difference between women. Another aspect is to look at God’s command to be fruitful and multiply, are those could not multiply outside of God’s eye? We saw the story of a eunuch that became a believer, once Philip explained scriptures to him.

If you want to venture further that verse 12, let’s look at what it says.

**1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed; then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not seduced; but the woman, being seduced, was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Yet she shall be saved through child bearing; if she continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety. **

This brings us back to Genesis and to what St. Paul told the Corinthians.

Gen 3:16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.

1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man.


Looking more closely at what St. Paul told the Corinthians, we see specifically the subject of teaching approached. As discussed, reading is not teaching…understanding what is read is learning. Learning comes from being taught. If they would learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. Now it seems the shame of a woman speaking in the Church is to speak, teaching or using authority.

1Co 14:34 Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak but to be subject, as also the law saith.
1Co 14:35 But if they would learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.


I’m glad I started this thread. It has caused me more to research…😉
 
So now we nuance the definition of speaking. First a lector is not a lector. And now women reading is speaking in church but with a “but”? Speaking is speaking. And either women can speak in church today or they can’t. And if they rightfully can now because it was merely a custom of Biblical times that they couldn’t (my view btw) then other customs can be tossed aside. Oh wait maybe not. It’s still up to men only to hear God’s will as to what speaking is allowed today but wasn’t in Biblical times and what isn’t allowed today but may or may not be some day. Sigh. :rolleyes:
I am going to do more research, I may have time over the next two days. I’m an EMT and have a 48 hour shift coming up.

As I read more of St. Paul’s writings today, it seems there’s a theme of subjection to men and as I said, reading as a lector is under the subjection of the priest.

The other differences between the Temple and Churches, men and women came together in the same room. Remember, there was a Court of Women in the Temple, but due to persecutions, the Church operated underground, or hidden for several hundred years. Being together through the years of persecution maybe why Churches are built the way they are today. It seems the subject possibly would not have come up, through St. Paul’s writings, had Christianity been allowed to operate in the open in newly constructed ‘Temples/Churches’. Would there still have been a Court of Women keeping us separated?

Like I said, there’s a lot of new questions that have come to mind and I will have a new ‘project’ to research more fully. As I find anything, I’ll be glad to share and would appreciate the same of anyone that does the same.
 
You’re sure about that? I think perhaps you are mincing words. Do a google and you will find many women lectors in Catholic churches. Perhaps you are attemptng to separate lector from some sort of officially ordained lector.
Since the topic is Bible only denominations which (name removed by moderator)lies literal meanings, I mean the precise liturgical role of “lector”. The role is one that can be filled only by a man; it is no longer a minor order. Many parishes call their readers, lectors. Many parishes call their EMHC, Eucharistic Ministers. Just because many do it, doesn’t make it right.
 
Then there is Huldah the prophetess in 2 Kings 22. The book of the law had just been found.by the priest Hilkiah during the reign of Josiah in Judah. The book was brought to the king.
11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Acbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD’s anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”
14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District.
15 She said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, 16 ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all the idols their hands have made, my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’ "
So they took her answer back to the king.
Josiah sent a priest, Hilkiah to inquire of the Lord. Who did this priest go to but to a woman, Huldah. She instructs the priest and, indirectly, the king who had sent him.

This again shows that God gives authority to women to instruct men, even to the priest and king.

I do not apologize for using the Old Testament since, as I said before, God does not change and if He gives a woman authority to teach a priest and king then Paul must have a specific reason for what he wrote to Timothy in Ephesus as Paul cannot prohibit what God allows.
 
From the Catechism:

1577 “Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.” The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.

Even though it does not state scriptures, we know the above is true from scriptures.

(still researching)
 
I do not apologize for using the Old Testament since, as I said before, God does not change and if He gives a woman authority to teach a priest and king then Paul must have a specific reason for what he wrote to Timothy in Ephesus as Paul cannot prohibit what God allows.
No need to apologize for the Old Testament. It seems there is a conflict in teachings if we try to adhere to the old law and the new covenant.

How do you feel about men who shave their beards or heads? Have they broken a teaching of God?

Lev 19:27 Nor shall you cut your hair roundwise: nor shave your beard.

Lev 21:5 Neither shall they shave their head, nor their beard, nor make incisions in their flesh.


Paul was being specific, he referenced it was wrong for women to teach or use authority over a man.

**1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner, women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire:
1Ti 2:10 But, as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. **

How is that teaching only applicable to one place and not another? How is that teaching applicable to one time and not another? Why didn’t Jesus appoint any women as Apostles or teachers? Why didn’t the Apostles appoint any women as Bishops or teachers?

The Bible is God inspired, why did God allow Paul to write those instructions with no exemptions?
 
You are right to call out any group that does not follow the Bible and claims to do so.
 
You are right to call out any group that does not follow the Bible and claims to do so.
Hello Rightly,

Been awhile since you and were in a discussion. Hope all is well with you.

I wasn’t exactly calling out a group as much as trying to understand how some claim Catholic have ‘extra or other non-Biblical’ doctrines from ‘glass houses’, so to speak.
 
You mean you are so hung up on one author and her insignificcant little book because she claimed to be ordained by both Foursquare and the Vineyard Churches that you missed the elephant.

Foursquare was founded by and its first President was a woman.
There’s a biography you should read… 🤷
 
Shawn,

No one is saying a woman has no place in a Church, but scriptures are clear when speaking about a woman teaching a man…
So why are women allowed to fully catechize a male convert? Or why are women allowed to do all the Sacramental Prep teaching of male adults?
 
So why are women allowed to fully catechize a male convert? Or why are women allowed to do all the Sacramental Prep teaching of male adults?
As Paul had helpers, as he referred to them, so does the priest. Those women are working under the authority of the priest.
 
Then there is Huldah the prophetess in 2 Kings 22. The book of the law had just been found.by the priest Hilkiah during the reign of Josiah in Judah. The book was brought to the king.

Josiah sent a priest, Hilkiah to inquire of the Lord. Who did this priest go to but to a woman, Huldah. She instructs the priest and, indirectly, the king who had sent him.

This again shows that God gives authority to women to instruct men, even to the priest and king.

I do not apologize for using the Old Testament since, as I said before, God does not change and if He gives a woman authority to teach a priest and king then Paul must have a specific reason for what he wrote to Timothy in Ephesus as Paul cannot prohibit what God allows.
Like me she was a PROPHET of the Lord God and in that tradition she would not be in the clerical authority but answers only to God. Its clear the priest wanted God’s message and advice for the King and the Hebrew people. It wasn’t in my vioew her teaching it was her passing the message of the Lord God to the King being His instrument.
 
As Paul had helpers, as he referred to them, so does the priest. Those women are working under the authority of the priest.
I’m sorry. That doesn’t work for me. I know they don’t really report to the priest.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top