Women - please help!

[Fidelis]

Meghan:

Women are not objects to be ogled at. Quit blaming women because you have no self control. You wouldn’t see the tattoos if you weren’t staring at their butts in the first place.

Quotes like this prove the argument that some woman are clueless when it comes to the nature of men. If a woman is placed in front of a man with skin tight clothes, exposed cleavage or hips and, yes, butt cracks with tattoos, men are PROGRAMMED to notice and be distracted. It is not a matter of ogling or staring. It is a fact of life. I don’t what kind of men women who deny this have in their lives, but if these men deny being affected they are either gay or liars.

 

[Bill_Buck]

Why not have a dress code? It is necessary in the business world. Since “proper dress” has such a varied interpretation for those attending church it seems some minimal standards should be adopted.

Employers set standards to provide a professional and safe work environment. People don’t seem to have a problem complying.

For most average church situations may I be so bold as to suggest a minimum standard of “business casual”. This will not break anybody’s budget and many of these items can be found in second hand or discount stores at very reasonable prices.

I have posted a sampling of excerpts from different business and educational sites for your enjoyment.

***“First impressions are lasting impressions and many times, fair or not, we’re initially judged by our outward appearance.” ***

"Acceptable Business Casual is as follows.

Acceptable Business Casual:

Open collar shirts, “polo” shirts, dress slacks, trousers, casual pants (e.g.“Dockers”), casual skirts, casual blouses, sweaters, loafers, and other nice casual wear. Sports jackets and ties (for men) are optional.

Not Acceptable:

Tee shirts, blue jeans (black, white, or other color jeans may be acceptable if suited for a business environment), rib leggings, sneakers, sweatshirts, shorts, or other recreational clothing. Headwear such as hats, caps, visors, sweatbands, or bandanas inside buildings (except for religion-related caps or turbans) is not acceptable."

***Business Dress ***For job interviews and presentations to clients, you should wear corporate business attire.

For most students, this clothing will seem a little boring and “too old” for you. It is. Get used to it

 

[kamz]

Chuck:

I can barely attend the Mass without having to protect my sight from women with tattoos above their butt that are visable when they sit and stand because of inappropriate tops and hip hugger pants.

Women talk and carry on visiting while others try to pray.

Women seem to be the most resistant to maintaining reverence.

Of course there are many women that see this and are trying to help rein in this behavior but much more need to be done.

Yes, this comes accross as sexist and I apologize to anyone that is offended, but it is a common frustration expressed by men at men-only meetings such as CHRP, Men’s Club, KOC and such.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A MORE COMPREHENSIVE COMMUNICATION TO WOMEN TO SHAPE UP.

Your thoughts please. Do you agree, how can this be better handled.

Because we can’t say anything as to do so really could get someone upset enough not to come back and obviously that is not what you want, you need to say a prayer for that person and then look away, look at your feet, look at the priest, the ceiling, your bible, the altar, etc. I know that people whispering or children acting out in front of me can also be very distracting if I choose to let it distract me, goodness, if I let it my own kids will distract me to the point I get nothing out of mass, but I have to focus, focus and focus some more and if that means sitting in the front row so nobody is in front of me beside the priest then thats what I do and if my kids are acting up I deal with it and get back to focusing on the mass. I know that half the time I’m so focused on the mass that it not until walking out I may notice what someone wore or had a tatoo and really I just say a prayer that God will help them to know better and move on, its not for me to judge and I don’t know where they happen to be in their faith, some people just returning or trying out the Church may not even realize this is offensive, so we can only pray and set a good example. But if a person really can’t stop looking maybe they need to get up and move, we can’t start telling people how to dress, we may wish we could but we could also turn many people away and we don’t want to do that either, if it is an issue it should be one the priest addresses to that person. This is just my personal opinion and I do understand how some people certainly do dress less than appropiate for mass but we need to be careful because these same people need Jesus as much as the rest of us.

 

[LetMeIn]

Thats bull and you know it. If they wouldn’t show it off…they’re would be nothing to look at. Truth hurt? Wear respectable clothes to Mass then.

Meghan:

I believe you intended this to come across as sexist. What about the men who wear t-shirts and muscle shirts that show off the tattoos on their arms. Should they cover up??

Men do alot of talking or even, worse, snoring during Mass where I attend. Not to mention the screaming children (not infants, but older kids) who run down the aisle and between the pews smacking people when they’re trying to pray.

Women are not objects to be ogled at. Quit blaming women because you have no self control. You wouldn’t see the tattoos if you weren’t staring at their butts in the first place.

 

[lacoloratura]

condan:

We were at a FHC recently and there were two families where the mother and daughter, with husband present, were dressed in slinky, spagetti-strapped mini dresses. Both mothers’ dresses were very low cut and suggestive. And this was for a special occasion in church, no less. How do they dress for the mall?

I just don’t understand it.

Mostly, this stuff doesn’t bother me too much, though I do agree that women’s fashions (particularly for teens) are way too revealing.

But I do have to share one incident - a couple of years ago at my parish’s First Eucharist Mass, one of the little girls’ moms came dressed such that I could hardly believe it - I was so astonished that anyone would wear this to church (and I was cantoring, so I couldn’t just face the other way). She was a beautiful woman, very tanned, and rather well-endowed…And she was wearing a gold tube top, practically the same color as her skin! I was pretty offended by that one. And I felt bad for the child, having THAT as an example. Fortunately, I don’t notice that this is the norm in the parish I’m at now.

 

[AnnieD]

LabChick:

Maybe women should just stay home?

I’ve learned there really is nothing you can do about the people who think hip huggers/halter tops/tank tops/baseball caps/muscle shirts/t-shirts/etc., are appropriate church attire.

Nothing except post about it at CAF.

I’m waiting for the “Women Causing Global Warming” thread, as someone mentioned earlier.

Annie

 

[Deacon2006]

Modest dress uses generally accepted norms and does not seek to reveal, outline or draw sexual attention to ones errogenous zones on ones body. Male and Female.

When you adopt the costume of a lifestyle inconsistent with catholic morallity then the cultural/fashion arguement always losses. Hip hugger jeans that show off a Playboy logo tattoo on the pelvis or just above the bum clevage on a man or a woman normally indicates a lack of proper refelection concerning their attire before attending mass.

Excessive Piercing and Tatoos can be a mortal sin. To highlight this condition through your dress or refusing to remove the piercings is never considered modest.

T-shirts that contain a message as an endorsement of an illicit lifestyle, are sexually provocative, ego centric, endorse intoxicants, gambling, violence and dark overtones are always inconsistent with modest dress for mass.

A good rule of thumb is if you wouldn’t wear it to an office job interview then don’t wear it to mass.

God Bless

 

[rosarywarrior]

I think we should copy these answers and give them to our relatives who fit the discription. A classmate of my sons wore some of those below the butt hip huggers and was sitting in front of me at a basketball game. I know I shouldn’t have, but I could not resist the urge to give her my two cents…yup, 2 pennies she had to retrieve. She was a close friend of ours so she wasnt furious but then she keeps trying to give back the 2 pennies…now I have to tell my son not to accept any pennies from her…eeewww!

 

[Jeffrey]

rosarywarrior:

I think we should copy these answers and give them to our relatives who fit the discription. A classmate of my sons wore some of those below the butt hip huggers and was sitting in front of me at a basketball game. I know I shouldn’t have, but I could not resist the urge to give her my two cents…yup, 2 pennies she had to retrieve. She was a close friend of ours so she wasnt furious but then she keeps trying to give back the 2 pennies…now I have to tell my son not to accept any pennies from her…eeewww!

LOL! :clapping: Now that was funny!

 

[misericordie]

Chuck:

I can barely attend the Mass without having to protect my sight from women with tattoos above their butt that are visable when they sit and stand because of inappropriate tops and hip hugger pants.

Women talk and carry on visiting while others try to pray.

Women seem to be the most resistant to maintaining reverence.

Of course there are many women that see this and are trying to help rein in this behavior but much more need to be done.

Yes, this comes accross as sexist and I apologize to anyone that is offended, but it is a common frustration expressed by men at men-only meetings such as CHRP, Men’s Club, KOC and such.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A MORE COMPREHENSIVE COMMUNICATION TO WOMEN TO SHAPE UP.

Your thoughts please. Do you agree, how can this be better handled.

I really hope your post here won’t be critisized. I cannot understand why in certain sectors In our Church, people are so sensitive, or defensive when the traditional and magisterial teachings of the Church are explained or defended?

 

[misericordie]

Annunciata:

Know what a friend of mine did… She was at Mass w/ her teenage nephew and a young lady sat in the pew in front of them dressed in skin tight, low cut jeans.
She could see her nephew was “being bothered” by this when he asked if they could move to another pew. She told him that they were not going to move, and to stay just where he was. She then proceeded to tap the young lady on the shoulder and asked her to please move her seat since she was causing her nephew to sin by the manner of her dress… Whew! I don’t know if I would have had the guts. Just a possible remedy…

LOL, This was so good, that she did that. Now that is defending the faith:tiphat: .

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Meghan:

Women are not objects to be ogled at. Quit blaming women because you have no self control. You wouldn’t see the tattoos if you weren’t staring at their butts in the first place.

Paul tells us that all things are allowed, but not all things build up. In fact, he will even refrain from doing something that is perfectly okay if doing that is going to cause his brother to sin.

 

[Charlemagne]

raphaela:

Ok, so since i plan on attending mass soon…here is my outfit. I have a black long sleeved shirt, not cleavage bearing alothough it is kind of tight, this is because I am very petite, but very well-endowed, iguess i could say, i can never find shirts that fit me in both areas without looking like a frumpy mess. I black skirt that goes past the knees and tall lace up platform boots (the dressiest I have Unless I want to wear my combat Dr. Martens or Flip-flops, but they are nice, not hookerish…being cash strapped, this is the best i can do… so do you think this is modest or should i save my moeny for somethign else??

In defense of the women with tattoos…if you want to be trendy, you have to almost settle for lowcut pants and high cut shirts, I try to be modest (being a modest goth is quite a task all on it’s own) but it is very difficult. Today’s fashions only allow the male XL sweatshirt to cover a body, nothing sold in malls will do that.

A question – do you want to be trendy for this world or the next? If you chose trendy for this world, you may not make it to Heaven. We should not be worried about what the secular world thinks about how we dress. We should be worried about what Jesus thinks about how we dress. We should not be reacting to the trends of the secular world, but setting the trends for the secular world to follow.

Jesus said in Matthew 18:6: “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

Church should be a “safe haven” from sin and occasions of sin. One should be able to attend Mass, pray, go to confession without having to worry about struggling with sin because of someone else present in the Church. Remember, as Catholics we are are responsible to God for all of our actions, EVERYWHERE. That means all Catholic men and women should dress modestly no matter where they are. I don’t mean that women should wear burkhas or head scarves. They should dress in loose fitting clothes that tend to conceal rather than reveal. Ditto for us men! Legs and arms can be exposed within reason if the weather or activity warrants it. Modesty is a gift to Jesus, not a burden. And a married man or woman should never be “hawking their wares” to other people by dressing immodestly.

Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[Charlemagne]

Deacon2006:

Modest dress uses generally accepted norms and does not seek to reveal, outline or draw sexual attention to ones errogenous zones on ones body. Male and Female.

When you adopt the costume of a lifestyle inconsistent with catholic morallity then the cultural/fashion arguement always losses. Hip hugger jeans that show off a Playboy logo tattoo on the pelvis or just above the bum clevage on a man or a woman normally indicates a lack of proper refelection concerning their attire before attending mass.

Excessive Piercing and Tatoos can be a mortal sin. To highlight this condition through your dress or refusing to remove the piercings is never considered modest.

T-shirts that contain a message as an endorsement of an illicit lifestyle, are sexually provocative, ego centric, endorse intoxicants, gambling, violence and dark overtones are always inconsistent with modest dress for mass.

A good rule of thumb is if you wouldn’t wear it to an office job interview then don’t wear it to mass.

God Bless

Amen, Deacon!

 

[Charlemagne]

Meghan:

I believe you intended this to come across as sexist. What about the men who wear t-shirts and muscle shirts that show off the tattoos on their arms. Should they cover up??

Yes, they should!

Women are not objects to be ogled at. Quit blaming women because you have no self control. You wouldn’t see the tattoos if you weren’t staring at their butts in the first place.

If women are not objects to be ogled at, than why do they dress as if they intend to attract attention? See my post on this thread that quotes Matthew 7:13-14 and 18:6.

 

[oremus]

Part of the message of Our Lady of Fatima was about immodest fashions. Why would anyone want to dress in an immodest way for our Lord? Would you help anyone along in any other sin? So, why would a Catholic female dress so as to help along their Catholic brothers in sin? Dressing immodestly is not an act of charity towards our brothers.

When I was in high school in the '70s, hip huggers were also the style to wear, but I didn’t wear them. I guess I was independent enough to have my own fashion trend and wore a skirt which I still do. We need to start our own Catholic fashion trend. Folks should be able to see how we act and dress and know that we are serious about our faith and loving and serving the Lord and each other.

God bless,
oremus

 

[dream_wanderer]

Deacon2006:

Excessive Piercing and Tatoos can be a mortal sin. To highlight this condition through your dress or refusing to remove the piercings is never considered modest.

One of my RICA teachers got so fed up with this trend of peopel mutilating their bodies that he threatened to just cut off his right leg and walk around on a stump and declare it ‘sexy’ ! I wonder if that would catch on.

I think the attitude is "It doesn’t make any difference to God what I look like’ and in a way they are right. I mean I love my husband even when he is dressed like a slob… but its nice when we go to town and he makes an extra effort to put on a clean shirt and comb his hair so that I’m not embarssed to be seen with him. I think God does accept us the way we are…but I also think He would appreciate the ‘extra’ effort.

I think we need to approach women with the idea that we are doing this for the Lord. Because we love Him we want to be our best in His presence. I hate to say it but if you tell most women or girls that their dress might cause men to sin…unless they are very empathic women they just won’t care. they will have the attitude “That’s THEIR problem…not mine.’ 'That’s just another way for men to try and control women! I’ll do what I want.”

Its very callous and its not right but its a reality. Sad but true. Perhaps if we approach it as a God thing instead of a ‘man’ thing it might go over better.

Or not. I’m just fishing for solutions here like everyone else.

dream wanderer

 

[raphaela]

Charlemange,

I stick up for the underdog, it’s not me you have to convince about trendiness, it’s them. I remeber in highschool being the epitome of uncool because i DIDN"T wear the latest fashions from the mall, nor would i drive 2 hours in ANY direction to get them.

These people think they have to follow a standard that society sets for them, ie. trendy. It’s not true, but they think it anyway.Clothes, tattoos, peircings, etc are all part of this…i admit, i do have a tattoo and a peircing, you can’t see the tattoo and the peircing is on my face, but it is no where immodest, I thought about that before I got it.

Especially as a man, you have to understand the incredibly overwhelming pressure society in general has put on young girls to fit in. Especially the teens right now, have grown up in a superficial, face-value world, and unfortunatley, this world is not good in the morals department, so naturally, they are being taught the wrong things.

Why do you think there is so much drug use, eating disorders and pre-marital sex? Society pressure AND the fact that most don’t even know that God exsists. For most people who are any bit religious, they worship a personal God that reflects what they want. My sister is a good example of all of this. She’s been called fat (she ways 110 lbs, and now does 300 crunches a night to get rid of the “awful flabby” stomach she didn’t have), she started doing drugs because her friends did (i don’t know thier reasons), she started having pre-marital sex becuase her boyfriend called her square and spread it around the school. My mother taught her the idea of a personal God, that guides you in what you want to do. She never taught me this (thank God) because she thought that with all my black clothing and doom & gloom attitude, that I must hate God (nothing could be further from the truth).

What i am trying to say is you can’t necessarily blame the person for thier actions, but blame society, which has brought these people up to do these things. See where society has gone wrong and then judge accordingly…you’d be suprised what you find out,

 

[AnnieD]

misericordie:

I really hope your post here won’t be critisized. I cannot understand why in certain sectors In our Church, people are so sensitive, or defensive when the traditional and magisterial teachings of the Church are explained or defended?

Maybe if the originator of the thread included Men and Women, it would have looked better. Going one step further, what about very attractive women that dress very modestly, wouldn’t they cause men to be distracted at mass too? Should women try to be ugly so as not to disturb men? Just don’t understand all of the criticism of women on the Catholic Answers forum. I’m proud to be a woman.

Annie

 

[naprous]

Chuck,

You might appreciate a line I came across once upon a time while researching a lecture on women in the Church:

“Nowhere in the course of growing hierarchical sympathy for feminist demands has due consideration been given to the reasons for which the sanctuary around the altar was originally established and has for so long been preserved. I think that the principal reason is a mystical one: to protect the priest from the incursion of demonic forces during the sublime ritual of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. With the presbyterium thrown open, what protection will the priest celebrant have from occult forces operating through unmortified feminist minds and hearts? … In the best circumstances a celebrating priest has a delicate task in defending himself from “the wickedness and snares of the Devil.” In the presence of the evil and uncontrolled force of witchcraft operating within the religious feminist movement, the dangers presented by the opening to women of the presbyterium surrounding the altar are too great and numerous to calculate.”

Personally, I think that’s absolutely outrageous – but you might possibly agree. (it came – in 2001 – from the website of a group called the Oblates of Wisdom – sorry, I can’t seem to find the URL).

You remind me of a whole lot of misogynist medieval writers who all thought that women were out to seduce them constantly. Hello!?!?!? Is that thought consistent with what someone else said below, that men are wired like that, and just have to look?

Keep your eyes off of other people’s butt cracks, and your mind out of the gutter.

Naprous
who has no tattoos, doesn’t wear hiphuggers or the like, and has never been kicked out of churches in Italy. However, I still resent your attitude!