Women - please help!

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Meghan:
Women are not objects to be ogled at. Quit blaming women because you have no self control. You wouldn’t see the tattoos if you weren’t staring at their butts in the first place.
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It’s possible to notice these things without “staring at their butts”… in fact sometimes it’s hard not to notice. I was at daily mass once, and there was a young lady in the row in front of me wearing tight, low-slung jeans and a high-cut shirt. I was just facing the front, watching the priest… but I don’t have tunnel vision. So when we all knelt down after the “Sanctus”, I would have had to close my eyes to avoid seeing that she was wearing very skimpy thong underwear that rode about 2 inches above the top of her jeans when she knelt down. At that point I did my best to look elsewhere so that wouldn’t be in my field of view. Then when she turned around at the sign of peace, it turned out that it was someone I was acquainted with, a nice young lady… I hate to say it, but seeing her in the revealing clothing may have subtely changed the way I saw her.

But anyway… it’s not always just a case of men “ogling” women and staring at their butts.
 
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raphaela:
Charlemange,

I stick up for the underdog, it’s not me you have to convince about trendiness, it’s them. I remeber in highschool being the epitome of uncool because i DIDN"T wear the latest fashions from the mall, nor would i drive 2 hours in ANY direction to get them.

These people think they have to follow a standard that society sets for them, ie. trendy. It’s not true, but they think it anyway.Clothes, tattoos, peircings, etc are all part of this…i admit, i do have a tattoo and a peircing, you can’t see the tattoo and the peircing is on my face, but it is no where immodest, I thought about that before I got it.

Especially as a man, you have to understand the incredibly overwhelming pressure society in general has put on young girls to fit in. Especially the teens right now, have grown up in a superficial, face-value world, and unfortunatley, this world is not good in the morals department, so naturally, they are being taught the wrong things.

Why do you think there is so much drug use, eating disorders and pre-marital sex? Society pressure AND the fact that most don’t even know that God exsists. For most people who are any bit religious, they worship a personal God that reflects what they want. My sister is a good example of all of this. She’s been called fat (she ways 110 lbs, and now does 300 crunches a night to get rid of the “awful flabby” stomach she didn’t have), she started doing drugs because her friends did (i don’t know thier reasons), she started having pre-marital sex becuase her boyfriend called her square and spread it around the school. My mother taught her the idea of a personal God, that guides you in what you want to do. She never taught me this (thank God) because she thought that with all my black clothing and doom & gloom attitude, that I must hate God (nothing could be further from the truth).

** What i am trying to say is you can’t necessarily blame the person for thier actions, but blame society, which has brought these people up to do these things. See where society has gone wrong and then judge accordingly…you’d be suprised what you find out,**
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“Blaming society” is an argument secularists and politcal left wingers love. They use it to raise taxes and to exert ever more control over our lives.

Society “goes wrong” because of the actions of individuals. As far as I know, God judges individuals when they die, not entire societies as a whole. Society will only be changed if individuals take action. And society shouldn’t be raising children - their parents should. I believe that parents who don’t take this responsibility very seriously will be judged extremely harshly by God.
 
I guess if it is really something that bothers you so much then you could be just very bold and go up to those that you find dress offending or not what you think is right and just say so, instead of feeling irritated week after week just go up to those people who are not dressed in what you deem to be correct clothes and say exactly what you think, we can all sit on a message board and write about it and how irritated we feel about it but action speaks louder than words. Myself I am not bothered by these things, I’m more annoyed by people who laugh and whisper the whole way through mass, and they don’t even have little kids to deal with they maybe a husband and wife yapping through mass, I’ll get up and move to a different pew and if they notice, well, all the better.
Clothes, that is the least of my concern, I may think in my own mind (my goodness, I would not be caught dead in that and chuckle to myself) etc. but once mass begins it just doesn’t seem to bother me at all, I just love to look around and see the church full and full of so many different people from all walks of life. But, if it really is harping on your nerves, the next time you see someone dressed in what you feel is not correct for mass, walk right up to them and state this and your reasons why and then come back to this board and let us know what they said :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
I have a suggestion.

Why don’t men start assuming their God given roles? Alot of the things (abuses) going on in Church are due to men not stepping up to the plate.

Men take control in your households. Lead your families, lead your wives and daughters. Lead by example at Church, offer to Lector, be a Eucharistic Minister, be an altar ‘boy’, become deacons. Do what you are supposed to do.

Look at the Traditional parishes, most of these types of problems are non-exsistent…and do you know why? Men have stepped up to the plate and lead.

SV
 
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naprous:
…yawn…

Keep your eyes off of other people’s butt cracks, and your mind out of the gutter.
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Keep the butt-cracks covered (because they’re private, we each have one and I don’t want to see anyone elses, especially in church) and them men won’t look at them.

If a guy walked into church wearing a Speedo, or bike shorts or a muscle shirt, tell me you wouldn’t look. Its only natural. We’re all human, men and women alike.

Its time that women learned to respect themselves and the sanctity of their bodies.

ps: In church, if you are kneeling and a butt crack is heading toward the altar to receive, a man’s eye’s are just about at butt-crack level.
 
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Meghan:
Women are not objects to be ogled at. Quit blaming women because you have no self control. You wouldn’t see the tattoos if you weren’t staring at their butts in the first place.
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You are right. Women aren’t objects to be ogled at.

So why do so many dress that way?
 
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Annunciata:
Know what a friend of mine did… She was at Mass w/ her teenage nephew and a young lady sat in the pew in front of them dressed in skin tight, low cut jeans.
She could see her nephew was “being bothered” by this when he asked if they could move to another pew. She told him that they were not going to move, and to stay just where he was. She then proceeded to tap the young lady on the shoulder and asked her to please move her seat since she was causing her nephew to sin by the manner of her dress… Whew! I don’t know if I would have had the guts. Just a possible remedy…:hmmm:
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You know, you have a good point. I am the mother of sons and they know when someone “doesn’t have enough clothes on”. Why should they have to look at the floor? Why can’t they enjoy the Mass without having a woman’s sexuality flaunted in front of them?
 
This is such an old and tired discussion. I have a document dating from about 1349 that blames the Black Death on women’s clothing (I’d give you a quote, but unfortunately, it seems that my Black Death sourcebook is at home…).

I like to think that the world has learned something from its centuries of misogyny and suspicion of women’s sexuality, but I guess that my trust in the world has been misplaced.

Look, I don’t much LIKE looking at my students who come to class in short shorts and skimpy tops, but I can do so without distraction or lust. And believe me, if I saw someone at Mass (or anywhere!) in a speedo, I’d avert my eyes. Believe it or not, some of us have our libidos under better control.

Naprous
 
Thanks everyone for your thougthts on this issue.

But I really didn’t mean that dress was main problem - the failure to behave reverently - which begins with an attitude that sets aside some norms of casual behavior and confroms to what is requested by the Church.

This includes unnecessary and pooly timed chatter, not scooting over in the pew to make room for others, digging in purses during the Lords Prayer, etc. They know better than this but like spoiled brats they want their way and rationalize their thoughts as needed to feel empowered to change the rules to fit their comforts (now I’m a mind reader).

My point also is that WOMEN MUST HELP EACH OTHER SHAPE UP. This is more constructive and avoids the man/women conflict.

I’m sure plenty of women are like-wise bothered by bad behavior of other women. (again, manners and courtesy, not just dress)

Chuck
 
Chuck, I still resent the way you say “women must shape up,” and the way you present it as a gendered issue.

I have no problem with encouraging people to dress better at Mass (though personally, I have no interest in the Sunday Best idea, and find it off-putting – call me a Franciscan for that!). And I agree that people who talk during mass or fidget, or whatever are distracting.

But presenting it as a “female” problem that needs to be resolved by females is insulting.

Naprous
 
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naprous:
Chuck, I still resent the way you say “women must shape up,” and the way you present it as a gendered issue.

I have no problem with encouraging people to dress better at Mass (though personally, I have no interest in the Sunday Best idea, and find it off-putting – call me a Franciscan for that!). And I agree that people who talk during mass or fidget, or whatever are distracting.

But presenting it as a “female” problem that needs to be resolved by females is insulting.

Naprous
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This is not much of a problem in my parish, but when there is a FHC, or baptism and we have visitors, you can bet your bippy that it’s the women/teenagers who are vying to show the most skin. I’ve seen men dress sloppily, and my young men both know that doesn’t fly with us.

Naprous, I am Third Order Franciscan (of the Immaculate), and Sunday best doesn’t mean dripping diamonds or rings on every finger. I think if a teenager dresses the way they would have to for Catholic high school, it’s probably okay for Mass. What would you wear to a meeting with the President? Does Our Lord deserve less respect?
 
I did not read through all the posts, but I would like to comment to Chuck…

You need to start asking the MEN for help. If fathers and husbands were more involved with their daughters and wives, there would be less women/children “baring” themselves in an attempt for male attention.

The rise of skimpy clothes is disigned simply to get attention from men. And teenage girls would not need attenetion from every passing stranger if getting love and attention she needs from her father. The same for some older ladies, but with regards to their husbands.

It is not just a problem at Mass, it is a problem in society.

🙂 Lilder
 
Dear Naprous,

Sorry your are insulted, I regret that you are taking it this way.

I feel women are so put-off when issues of behavior are brought up by men. Even close men such as husbands or those in authority such as a priest. That is why best results come when women discuss these issues with each other. Does this happen in women’s meetings with enough focus and frequency that the message is getting a fair airing?

And I notice that it is women, less often men, that are ones fidgeting.

Chuck
 
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Chuck:
This includes unnecessary and pooly timed chatter, not scooting over in the pew to make room for others, digging in purses during the Lords Prayer, etc. They know better than this but like spoiled brats they want their way and rationalize their thoughts as needed to feel empowered to change the rules to fit their comforts (now I’m a mind reader).

My point also is that WOMEN MUST HELP EACH OTHER SHAPE UP. This is more constructive and avoids the man/women conflict.

Chuck
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Don’t you ever see men making unnecessary and poorly timed chatter and not scooting over in the pews, or even perhaps sleeping in the pews? Are the men spoiled brats too in your mind?
I think your sexism is showing and it isn’t an attractive trait.

Annie
 
Detroit Sue,

This president? probably an offensive t-shirt. (only kidding!) Actually, I guess it would depend on the context. If I were visiting the White House for a black tie dinner, I’d wear a gown. If I were going to have a working meeting with him, I’d wear a suit, or what I think of as semi-professional business attire: trousers and a jacket. If he invited me to that d*mned ranch in Crawford, TX I’d wear something else much less formal. To me, going to Mass is a comfortable thing, and not a formal one. When I lived in a monastery, I didn’t dress up for Sundays, and neither did anyone else. I just wore what I wore the rest of the week, which was modest and comfortable. So I don’t have a problem with jeans, t-shirts or the like – as far as I’m concerned, they’re modest and comfortable.

When I said Franciscan, I was thinking of the Spiritual Franciscans of the 14th century, actually. They were known as the Friars of the Short Habits (I kid you not), because they refused to acquiesce to the Order’s (and the pope’s) demands to have them wear longer, less hole-y habits. They modeled their habits after St. Francis’ own habit (one of which you can still see in Assisi in the lower Basilica, and another of which is at La Verna – I don’t care HOW short the Poverello was, that thing probably didn’t even reach his knees!). And I have Franciscan friends who are more on the “Spiritual” end of the spectrum: patched or hole-y sweaters are the way I’ve seen them dressed at every academic conference and or mass I’ve ever been to with them (we’ve never been invited to the White House, but I suspect W. doesn’t care much about evangelical poverty).

I’ve never been to a Catholic high school, and don’t know what students wear at them, so I can’t comment on that.

As for it being women who are dressing “disrespectfully,” well, that IS a much larger societal problem – and a problem that I think is driven by men, not women. Why are there half-naked women on the cover of Italian news magazines? Why is there a “boob shot” on p. 3 of every British tabloid? Why does so much advertising present naked or near naked women? Because women want to flaunt it? No, I don’t think so. Don’t blame it exclusively on the women or on the young girls who are simply trying to fit in.

Naprous
 
Chuck, I agree with AnnieD: your sexism is showing, and it’s even less attractive than the tatoo above some young thing’s butt crack.

Naprous
 
“Blaming society” is an argument secularists and politcal left wingers love. They use it to raise taxes and to exert ever more control over our lives.
Click to expand...
Society “goes wrong” because of the actions of individuals. As far as I know, God judges individuals when they die, not entire societies as a whole. Society will only be changed if individuals take action. And society shouldn’t be raising children - their parents should. I believe that parents who don’t take this responsibility very seriously will be judged extremely harshly by God.
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Ok charlemange, I see your point…it is the parents responsibility to teach their children the ills of this society, but this generation and the one before have been raised by the tv. Who says what shoudl be on tv? corporates who want to brainswash individuals into mass consumerism. If the styles are going to be skanky, than the tv guys are gonna promote it.

So maybe I was wrong in that it isn’t society as a whole, but it is the parents who let society brainwash thier children. Children, as you well know, are very impressionable. what they see on the tv, in movies, in magazines, will affect who they become as an adult. Thus, the problem we have now. Society is very lax, anything goes in this society, which is portrayed on national tv every hour on the hour. If your saturated enough by this mind-frame, that is what you are going to believe.

Studies prove that watching a commercial makes you more likely to buy the product. They also prove that watching skinny young good looking women on tv or in movies or in magazines, makes you more likely to think that they are normal, and you are not. This may not be the same for men, but it is certainly true for women.

ok, i retract, I blame the parents!
 
My point is there is a problem. I’m asking women helping each other to curb it.

What kind of response does a father get from his daughter when he comments on poor dress or behavior? Today’s society portrays men as stupid, out of touch, and oafs. Kindness, careful timing, you name it barely have an impact. Women actively taking on the issue have more success.

Replies that my viewpoint is sexist and it is my problem not to notice (and be offended by) bad behavior is the typical - and shallow - retort by those that really don’t appreciate the problem.

Chuck
 
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