Women preaching?!

[itsjustdave1988]

See also this article…

Vatican officials say bad Masses lead to weak faith
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100868.htm

 

[thomas_jd]

Actually, the instruction from the Vatican states that it is preferred that it NOT be during the Mass at all, but “for serious reasons it is permissible… after the Priest has proclaimed the Prayer after Communion.” In other words, after communion is not merely the “preferred” time, but it is the “permissible” time.

Puzzleannie is correct. You are mistaken.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Puzzleannie is correct. You are mistaken.

I’ve been mistaken before. However, can you point out from Church documents how I’m incorrect? I quoted from Redemptionis Sacramentum, here: #12 . Is there something there I am not understanding?

 

[thomas_jd]

I’ve been mistaken before. However, can you point out from Church documents how I’m incorrect? I quoted from Redemptionis Sacramentum, here: #12 . Is there something there I am not understanding?

We all fall into that category from time to time.
R.S. mentions testimony and instructions specifically! There are other issues that the priest or Bishop may want to be addressed that fall outside of these parameters.
One must examine each and every word of these documents to arrive at the proper conclusion as to what exactly is Prohibited or Allowed.

 

[Aramis]

The woman is replacing the priest giving the homily completely. Afaik no one told the bishop or he pretends not to know…

If it was mentioned in the bulletin, send the bishop a copy of the bulletin, and a note explaining your “concern” about this illicit practice.

Then pray he does the right thing.

Redemptionis Sacramentum puts the duty of informing the bishop of abuses to the informed laity as well as the clergy. And drops the requirement for discussing it with the pastor.

Just be certain, however, it actually is an abuse, or presents a strong appearance of abuse.

 

[benedictgal]

We all fall into that category from time to time.
R.S. mentions testimony and instructions specifically! There are other issues that the priest or Bishop may want to be addressed that fall outside of these parameters.
One must examine each and every word of these documents to arrive at the proper conclusion as to what exactly is Prohibited or Allowed.

Actually, it’sjustdave is correct. Here is the other section that folks seem to be missing:

1. Preaching
   [161.] As was already noted above, the homily on account of its importance and its nature is reserved to the Priest or Deacon during Mass.260 **As regards other forms of preaching, if necessity demands it in particular circumstances, or if usefulness suggests it in special cases, lay members of Christ’s faithful may be allowed to preach in a church or in an oratory outside Mass in accordance with the norm of law.261 **This may be done only on account of a scarcity of sacred ministers in certain places, in order to meet the need, and it may not be transformed from an exceptional measure into an ordinary practice, nor may it be understood as an authentic form of the advancement of the laity.262 All must remember besides that the faculty for giving such permission belongs to the local Ordinary, and this as regards individual instances; this permission is not the competence of anyone else, even if they are Priests or Deacons.

Now, the person could make a brief announcement after the Post-Communion prayer, where the Roman Missal specifically states it can be done, but, a full-blown reflection does not belong within the context of the Mass, based on the above-quoted section from RS.

 

[Maureen1125]

Is she preaching at every mass?

If not, simply go to a different mass. Personally, I would be curious as to what she has to say and share before I go running off to complain about it.

 

[benedictgal]

Is she preaching at every mass?

If not, simply go to a different mass. Personally, I would be curious as to what she has to say and share before I go running off to complain about it.

However, with all due respect, it seems to me that we are missing the point. She may be a great speaker, but, the Mass is not the proper venue for her to “preach”. It does not matter what she says; the fact remains that she does not have the competency to preach.

 

[thomas_jd]

If it was mentioned in the bulletin, send the bishop a copy of the bulletin, and a note explaining your “concern” about this illicit practice.

Then pray he does the right thing.

Redemptionis Sacramentum puts the duty of informing the bishop of abuses to the informed laity as well as the clergy. And drops the requirement for discussing it with the pastor.

Just be certain, however, it actually is an abuse, or presents a strong appearance of abuse.

It is better to go thru the priest than around him.

 

[puzzleannie]

I do point out again that OP has given us no reason to believe a woman will be “preaching”, for one thing he calls it a sermon. There is no sermon at Mass, there is a homily based on the readings given by an ordained minister which can be omitted only for a grave reason, but can be shortened if necessary to allow time for another message of some kind delivered by a non-ordained person who has been commissioned to deliver that message. Since OP declines to tell us the circumstances of what is happening at his parish best not to speculate. Time to worry will be when, as in some parishes here, a woman regularly speaks in place of the homily. No matter what she says or what she calls it, it is not a homily because she is not ordained, but it is an abuse. As yet we don’t know OP is seeing this abuse in his parish.

 

[benedictgal]

I do point out again that OP has given us no reason to believe a woman will be “preaching”, for one thing he calls it a sermon. There is no sermon at Mass, there is a homily based on the readings given by an ordained minister which can be omitted only for a grave reason, but can be shortened if necessary to allow time for another message of some kind delivered by a non-ordained person who has been commissioned to deliver that message. Since OP declines to tell us the circumstances of what is happening at his parish best not to speculate. Time to worry will be when, as in some parishes here, a woman regularly speaks in place of the homily. No matter what she says or what she calls it, it is not a homily because she is not ordained, but it is an abuse. As yet we don’t know OP is seeing this abuse in his parish.

I would be most appreciative if you were to show me in the authoritative documents of the Church where the homily may be shortened to allow for the non-ordained to deliver a message. RS makes it perfectly clear that such should be done apart from the Mass.

Now, for many people, “sermon” and “homily” are interchangeable terms as they may not yet be familiar with the proper wording that the Church uses. It could very well be that the OP is reporting the situation accurately, just not using the right words.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I would be most appreciative if you were to show me in the authoritative documents of the Church where the homily may be shortened to allow for the non-ordained to deliver a message. RS makes it perfectly clear that such should be done apart from the Mass.

RS #74 allows a layperson to give “instruction or testimony” following the Prayer after Communion. It does not say that it must be “brief” and obviously if someone is going to be speaking for 10 minutes at the end of Mass then the priest/deacon would shorten his homily for time considerations.

 

[benedictgal]

RS #74 allows a layperson to give “instruction or testimony” following the Prayer after Communion. It does not say that it must be “brief” and obviously if someone is going to be speaking for 10 minutes at the end of Mass then the priest/deacon would shorten his homily for time considerations.

Let us look at the entire RS #74:

[74.] If the need arises for the gathered faithful to be given instruction or testimony by a layperson in a church concerning the Christian life,** it is altogether preferable that this be done outside Mass**. Nevertheless, for serious reasons it is permissible that this type of instruction or testimony be given after the Priest has proclaimed the Prayer after Communion. This should not become a regular practice, however. Furthermore, these instructions and testimony should not be of such a nature that they could be confused with the homily,156 nor is it permissible to dispense with the homily on their account.

What I highlighted in bold would give us an indication that RS never meant for this particular “talk” to go longer than the homily. Furthermore, it specifically states that such a talk is preferable outside the Mass.

The homily far outweighs what a lay person would have to say because it is the preaching of the Gospel by the one who, by virtue of his ordination, is to do this. Simply preaching an abbreviated homily to give to give the lay person more time to speak is not, I believe, the intent of RS 74, especially since the last part makes it clear that this should not be of such a nature as to confuse what the lay person is saying with the homily.

 

[Aramis]

It is better to go thru the priest than around him.

In the case of Liturgical abuse, no, it seldom is. The priest is allowing it. And the duty, per RS, is to notify the bishop… not the offending priest.

All notifying the offending priest does is give him time to prepare a defense of the illicit act prior to the bishop calling him upon it.

 

[sidbrown]

I’m quite new to the Catholic Church and I’ve got an important question:

Is it allowed for women to preach (during mass)?

Next sunday the sermon will be done by a woman which is afaik forbidden. Should I go anyway?

I know it has been done in our local area and we haven’t heard of any complaints about it.

 

[sidbrown]

RS #74 allows a layperson to give “instruction or testimony” following the Prayer after Communion. It does not say that it must be “brief” and obviously if someone is going to be speaking for 10 minutes at the end of Mass then the priest/deacon would shorten his homily for time considerations.

Perhaps that is what we have been hearing at Mass: an instruction or testimony by laywomen at the altar. One of these concerned how women have been systematically discriminated against by the Church for 2000 years.

 

[ThomasJC]

It could very well be that the OP is reporting the situation accurately, just not using the right words.

I’m sorry. I’m not a native speaker so I just looked it up in the dictionary

I really appreciate all your efforts explaining this situation! Also, I made a decision
I will go and then tell the priest that I don’t think it was appropriate. How does that sound?

Is it really my “job” to put things like that straight? I really understand why those rules exist and think they are good and just but on the other hand I (personally) think there are more important things. You know, I don’t want to start trouble because the priest breaks a rule twice a year (I asked someone who told me that they do it twice a year).

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

What I highlighted in bold would give us an indication that RS never meant for this particular “talk” to go longer than the homily.

Nonsense. It says no such thing nor indicates anything resembling your personal interpretation.

Furthermore, it specifically states that such a talk is preferable outside the Mass.

Preferable yet not mandated.

Simply preaching an abbreviated homily to give to give the lay person more time to speak is not, I believe, the intent of RS 74, especially since the last part makes it clear that this should not be of such a nature as to confuse what the lay person is saying with the homily.

You’re imposing a personal opinion as Church teaching when it clearly is not.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m

I really appreciate all your efforts explaining this situation! Also, I made a decision
I will go and then tell the priest that I don’t think it was appropriate. How does that sound?

Ir).

that is your best first move, but I would rather say “ask” the priest about it rather than “tell” the priest what you think.

 

[thomas_jd]

In the case of Liturgical abuse, no, it seldom is. The priest is allowing it. And the duty, per RS, is to notify the bishop… not the offending priest.

All notifying the offending priest does is give him time to prepare a defense of the illicit act prior to the bishop calling him upon it.

R.S. #183 " let everyone do all that is in there power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrement of The Eucharist will be protected from any irreverance and distortion that all
abuses be thoroughly corrected.This is a serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism."
R.S. #184 "Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesian Bishop…etc… " Goes on telling us to report to the Bishop first than Rome !
183 > We all have a duty to report abuse.
184>We have a right to lodge a complaint with our Bishop first, then after that is done
to Rome. I would think that would allow the Bishop time to act!
This does not limit one from addressing the abuse with the Pastor. This provides a avenue
to follow ensuring action will be taken. The Bishop is responsible to correct abuse.
That said common prudence tells us to address the offender hoping that he will
fix his problem. We have a Right to the proper Liturgy!
There is no defence to abuse! We want it eliminated