Women Priests

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Tantum ergo quoted that from the Catholic Encyclopedia in post #110 in an attempt to refute me, but I don’t see how, as it actually confirms what I was saying.

See also my post #112 for the 1917 canon law citation.
However, we are bound by the 1983 Code of Canon Law.

By the way, what you quoted from Pope Pius XII was about the form, not about the matter. The form for the Eucharist is an approved Eucharistic Prayer. The matter is unleavened bread and wine. The form for Confirmation is the laying on of hands and annointing. The matter is the oil.
 
In times past, a slave was someone who owned something and was indebted to the lender until the debt was paid off…this was the role of slaves in ancient times, such as in Israel.

The Roman slaves, the Arab slaves, the American slaves were in bondage.

Where are the slaves between the former canon of 1917 up to 1983? I know that there were regions in Africa as late as the 1960’s were they were being kidnapped and taken as slaves. It is happening in the Sudan again to the Christians and animists.

But when I read the statement about the slaves not becoming priests I wonder what country and time are they talking about, and in what context?
 
This statement is completely wrong, and displays a fundamental ignorance of Catholic sacramental theology.

The matter of the sacrament of Holy Orders is the laying on of hands by the bishop, nothing more, nothing less. This was settled in 1947 by Pope Pius XII (see here).
No, that’s the FORM, not the Matter. You have to have bread AND say the words of consecration. It’s both and they are different things. Form and Matter.

So stop making things up.
 
Easter Joy,

I concur with you; people need to be interviewed and tested before admittance into the seminary. I also see the need to return to ancient disciplines of ascetism and discernment.

People are tested and evaluated when they enter lay branches of religious institutes as well as other societies.
 
However, we are bound by the 1983 Code of Canon Law.
Which changed the former 2000 year old rule. Which proves that “we’ve always done it that way” isn’t always an airtight argument. Which answers the objection from post #105. Which justifies the continued theological investigation into why women can’t be priests.
By the way, what you quoted from Pope Pius XII was about the form, not about the matter. The form for the Eucharist is an approved Eucharistic Prayer. The matter is unleavened bread and wine. The form for Confirmation is the laying on of hands and annointing. The matter is the oil.
Here is the statement from Sacramentum Ordinis that I was talking about:

Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands;
 
Ludmila Javorová was ordained in 1970 (see here). I’m talking about the rules here, not the exceptions.
She claims to be. Claiming is a whole different matter altogether. Furthermore, wikipedia is not always an accurate source. Anyone can post just about anything on Wiki.
 
No, that’s the FORM, not the Matter. You have to have bread AND say the words of consecration. It’s both and they are different things. Form and Matter.

So stop making things up.
I’m talking about Holy Orders, not the Eucharist. And I’m not making things up - I’m quoting from an Apostolic Constitution (the highest form of papal document in modern times) from Pius XII.
 
Ludmila Javorová was ordained in 1970 (see here). I’m talking about the rules here, not the exceptions.
I am trying to follow you here. you have shown one document that purports to show that for a period in the 19th century the Church did not allow slaves to be ordained. Now one would have to ask how it would be possible to ordain a “chattel” slave anyway(would their masters allow them to attend the seminary?) but lets take it at face value. You have been shown that there has NOT been a 2,000 prohibition against ordaining slaves, as you originally claimed ,BUT again even if this were true how would that possibly seque into the church should allow women Priests?
 
You have been shown that there has NOT been a 2,000 prohibition against ordaining slaves, as you originally claimed
I must have missed this. The Catholic Church has had rules against ordaining slaves until 1983. Whether those rules have always been followed is another question.
,BUT again even if this were true how would that possibly seque into the church should allow women Priests?
It doesn’t. It shows that “we’ve always done it that way” isn’t an airtight argument, and that continued theological investigation into why women can’t be priests is still justified.
 
I must have missed this. The Catholic Church has had rules against ordaining slaves until 1983. Whether those rules have always been followed is another question.
You have provided no proof of this other than a single scanned page from a 19th century book which even if accurate does not prove the Church forbade he ordination of slaves for 2,000 years-but again how would a slave be able to attend the seminary anyway?
But a slave could always be freed and ,as as been shown you , when that happened they were eligible to be ordained. A woman can not become a man. There is absolutely no comparison bewtwen the two.

Is it your contention that “we have always done it this way” is invalid ? Should we revist the real presencs and the belief in the ressurection of Christ because of its 2,000 year history? Or is the truth of the matter thet we have always done it that way becuase it the right way to do it?
[/QUOTE]
 
but again how would a slave be able to attend the seminary anyway?
I’m not sure I see your point here. Are you saying the Catholic Church was actually wrong in 1983 to drop the prohibition against slaves becoming priests because there are good reasons for that rule, such as the difficulty in attending seminary?

My point is to show one example of the Catholic Church changing a rule after 2000 years, to demonstrate that “we’ve always done it that way” isn’t a good argument. Female altar servers is another example of the change of a 2000 year old rule.
Is it your contention that “we have always done it this way” is invalid ?
Exactly. If something is really true, there is always a much better reason than “we’ve always done it this way.” So if “we’ve always done it this way” is the best reason you’ve got, that isn’t much of an argument.
Should we revist the real presencs
Karl Rahner thought there was benefit in doing so.
 
In reference to Post 97, I was taking a class by a sister with a Ph.D. and emphasis on women’s ordination. I think the class was around the end of 1995. Rechecked it; guess that class was in ’ 94. Remember that moment with the women very well.

When Cardinal Ratzinger made the ruling, she and the other women were very upset, because what the ruling did was forever close the consideration of women priesthood.

It will never happen. It is done. However, people who are open to women’s ordination, the Vatican declared, are not heretics either.
 
*This statement is completely wrong, and displays a *fundamental ignorance of Catholic sacramental theology.
Your statements on this thread display “a fundamental ignorance of Catholic” teachings.
The matter of the sacrament of Holy Orders is the laying on of hands by the bishop, nothing more, nothing less. This was settled in 1947 by Pope Pius XII (see here).
The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ.
The priest takes the place of the Bridegroom.
Through the Mass and the Sacraments, Christ the Bridegroom gives life to His Bride
.
A woman CANNOT take the place of the Bridegroom. FULL STOP. It`s Men only!
Apart from being invalid: a relationship between a “priestess” and the Bride would be LITURGICAL LESBIANISM.
The Marital relationship between Christ and the Church is SCRIPTURAL, and is linked to the marital relationship between husband and wife.


Karl Rahner?
You may as well quote apostate Fr. H Kung while youre at it! Heretic views on the Blessed Sacrament, or anything else, dont count.

And the opinions of the radical feminists and their lackeys don`t count.
 
Just Lurking:

May we very respectfully request that you open a separate thread about the Catholic Church and your allegations re ordination of slaves? If you continue on the topic on** this thread --which has as ITS topic ‘women priests’–it is likely to be closed for going off topic. **

Just cut-and-paste your last post as the ‘start’ of a new thread, and come back and post the link to that thread.

In the meantime, coming firmly back ON TOPIC and ONLY on the topic of women priests. . .

The Catholic Church has no authority to ordain women.

Never had, never will.

NO authority.
 
PS
The Marital relationship between Christ and the Church is SCRIPTURAL, and is linked to the marital relationship between husband and wife.
Ephesians 5:25-32: "***Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave ***Himself up for Her, that He might sanctify Her, having cleansed Her by the washing of water with the Word, that He might present the Church to Himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that She might be holy and without blemish. Even so [ie: in like manner] husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the Church, because we are members of His Body. ***For this reason, a man shall leave his *****father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church." **RSV.

Marital imagery!
 
To come up with more convincing reasons than “we’ve always done it that way.”
Convincing? Convincing to whom? Is obedience totally out of fashion now? It is one thing to try to understand. That is only prudent. It is another to refuse to believe what one doesn’t understand. It is a big difference, the difference between Zechariah and Our Lady.

It is an elementary observation that men and women are not ritual equivalents. Neither is following the precedent set by the Lord and the Twelve the equivalent of “we’ve always done it that way”. But what if these, and the other reasons given, were no more than that?

I think that having those who bind and loose deciding “we’ve always done it that way” is far better than those with no authority taking it upon themselves to decide “well, hmmph, we don’t like it done that way. Prove your opinion is better than mine.” There is chaos in that direction.

If everybody has to be convinced before authority may be exercised, then there is no authority, and to be blunt, there’s never going to be either authority or unity. Multiply that by ten in the USA…or, if you’re counting American Protestant denominations, by thousands.

I will train a 100-piece all-cat marching band before you ever get a unified Church based on democratic consent by the laity.
 
Convincing? Convincing to whom? Is obedience totally out of fashion now? It is one thing to try to understand. That is only prudent. It is another to refuse to believe what one doesn’t understand. It is a big difference, the difference between Zechariah and Our Lady.

It is an elementary observation that men and women are not ritual equivalents. Neither is following the precedent set by the Lord and the Twelve the equivalent of “we’ve always done it that way”. But what if these, and the other reasons given, were no more than that?

I think that having those who bind and loose deciding “we’ve always done it that way” is far better than those with no authority taking it upon themselves to decide “well, hmmph, we don’t like it done that way. Prove your opinion is better than mine.” There is chaos in that direction.

If everybody has to be convinced before authority may be exercised, then there is no authority, and to be blunt, there’s never going to be either authority or unity. Multiply that by ten in the USA…or, if you’re counting American Protestant denominations, by thousands.

I will train a 100-piece all-cat marching band before you ever get a unified Church based on democratic consent by the laity.
And my five dachshunds will follow you along as the flag corps! 😃

Seriously, the Church has already established that She has no authority to ordain women. Unfortunately, there are those who do not accept even that and will still come up with every excuse imaginable to disregard that teaching.
 
Is obedience totally out of fashion now?
Actually, it is. The idea that the role of the laity is to just “pay, pray, and obey” went out with Vatican II. Hence the newfound importance of explaining Catholic doctrines and not just promulgating them.

The idea that the Catholic hierarchy can do whatever they want and are not accountable to the rest of the Church is what lead to the abuse scandals. (See all the other threads about this so as not to derail this thread.)
 
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