Women Priests

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Andrew_11:
My friends say that when I am trying to defend the church’s posistion against ordaining women, I sound sexist. They know that I am not a sexist, but they think I sound like one when I discus the issue. I have to admit that I was pretty blunt about it, but I believe it is an infallible doctrine. Can anyone out there give me advice on how to defend the church’s position on this issue?
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Andrew,

Please pardon my asking, but what’s wrong with being a sexist? I firmly believe that men and women should be treated differently from men–and there are Bible and tradition (and, I think, Tradition) to back me up. Women are entitled to respect simply because they are women, but it is no disrespect to say that there are certain things that women simply cannot do, any more than it is disrespect to say that there are certain things that men simply cannot do.
  • Liberian
 
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MysticRose:
Ok now I have a bone to pick who’s fault was the Fall of mankind? Who did God blame? Yes, she was decieved, but if we go back to Scripture there was a reason that she was decieved.

Let us see how events unfolded shall we …

Gen 2:15 And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

Here he obviously told Adam not to eat from the tree … BUT, he told Adam alone, not Eve…

then …

Gen 2:21 Then the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam: and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs, and filled up flesh for it.
Gen 2:22 And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man.
**Gen 2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. **
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked: to wit, Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed.

Ok then we move onto the beginning of the next chapter …

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise?
**Gen 3:2 And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps ** we die. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband, who did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.

Now the distinction that is made here is what? The reason that God blamed Adam is why? It fell upon whom to explain to her what could and could not be done and why? Was that not Adam’s responsibility as Head of the family? Did he not fail his wife? So then who is more culpable Adma or Eve? Also, when she took the fruit and did eat did he correct her or did he join her? Thereby again making himself more culable for the act and therefore for the Fall of all of Mankind? So then whom is guided by whom here?

Your post insinuates that women cannot be trusted to make rational decisions, were any of the decisions that Adam made rational? And if they were then why did God punish Adam and Eve for their indiscretion to begin with?
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I didn’t mean to offend. I am just trying to exegete the text of 1 Timothy 2:8-15. So how would understand Paul’s argument in that passage?
 
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mlchance:
When Eve took the fruit and ate, did she go home and talk Adam into eating too? No. Adam was right there with Eve the entire time she talked with the Serpent, and yet Adam said nothing. To whom did God give the instructions about which trees to not eat from? To Adam (who, by the way, obviously did a poor job of catechizing Eve based on her answers to the Serpent’s questions). Why did Adam fail to act? The Hebrew word translated as “serpent” or “snake” is closer in meaning to “very poisonous viper.” Adam kept his mouth shut because he was too scared to contradict the Serpent and thus risk his life for God and Eve.

Yes, Eve sinned, but she at least wrestled with the Devil and was thrown. Which of us here hasn’t done the same? Adam, OTOH, simply capitulated, abrogating his role as Eve’s husband and protector and as Creation’s caretaker.

Oh, and women can’t be ordained. 🙂

– Mark L. Chance.
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I’m not disagreeing with any of your reasoning, but like I asked MysticRose, how do you make sense of what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:8-15?
 
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mike182d:
One of the best articles I’ve ever seen on the subject matter:

firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9304/articles/novak.html
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Novak makes some good points but I still have to ask a question: Why does he evade 1 Timothy 2:8-15? This biblical passage alone suffices to provide an argument against women’s ordination. Paul is saying that due to the order of creation and the deception of Eve, women are not to be in positions of authority over men in the Church. How hard is that?
 
Andrew,
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Please pardon my asking, but what’s wrong with being a sexist? I firmly believe that men and women should be treated differently from men–and there are Bible and tradition (and, I think, Tradition) to back me up. Women are entitled to respect simply because they are women, but it is no disrespect to say that there are certain things that women simply cannot do, any more than it is disrespect to say that there are certain things that men simply cannot do.
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  • Liberian
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Yes, but that is not being sexist is it. Sexist is really discrimination due to gender.
 
John Paul II said that the Church does not have any power to change that teaching. So it seems to me that the case is closed.
 
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amateurthomist:
Novak makes some good points but I still have to ask a question: Why does he evade 1 Timothy 2:8-15? This biblical passage alone suffices to provide an argument against women’s ordination. Paul is saying that due to the order of creation and the deception of Eve, women are not to be in positions of authority over men in the Church. How hard is that?
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Well, I think he does it intentionally because the type of people he’s trying to convice don’t care what 1 Timothy has to say. Its not because the passage is any less helpful in the argument against women ordination.

That’s just my thought, though.
 
1 Timothy
The epistle consists mainly of counsels to Timothy regarding the worship and organization of the Church, and the responsibilities resting on its several members; and secondly of exhortation to faithfulness in maintaining the truth amid surrounding errors.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_Timothy#1_Timothy

The problem back then that St Paul had sent a pastoral letter to St Timothy about was the fact that, at the time there were many women in the Church that were being allowed to take on the role of Deaconess and in the priesthood. This was not part of the apostolic teaching that they were taught and so therefore Timothy was told to correct them and several other errors that they were doing as well. This was not just the women that are being correct in 1 Timothey but mostly the the men and mostly the Hierarchy or those that are pastoral.

1Ti 2:9 In like manner, women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire:
1Ti 2:10 But, as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
**1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. **

The style of St. Paul’s writings at time’s varies and therefore because of it’s unconformity to uniformity it is hard at times to follow his thoughts, but the Church in assessing his writing patterns have determined that this was a pastoral letter to Timothy alone that was to be referenced to in order to guide him as to what corrections to mke and therefore the reason for th more personal stule in his tone, or harshness.

The point that is made by theis passge is simple that women are not supposed to be, in the position of Hierarchy, thay are not supposed to be in pastoral positions where they are heads over the whole flock, but instead in that, their postion is one of silence as we are never to be a priest or deacon or bishop … This however does not mean that we serve no purpose inside of the Church and that in all things in the Church we must remain silent only when it comes to teaching the Congregation as a whole.
 
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Liberian:
Andrew,

Please pardon my asking, but what’s wrong with being a sexist? I firmly believe that men and women should be treated differently from men–and there are Bible and tradition (and, I think, Tradition) to back me up. Women are entitled to respect simply because they are women, but it is no disrespect to say that there are certain things that women simply cannot do, any more than it is disrespect to say that there are certain things that men simply cannot do.
  • Liberian
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My definition of being a sexist is believing one sex is better than the other.
 
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amateurthomist:
I didn’t mean to offend. I am just trying to exegete the text of 1 Timothy 2:8-15. So how would understand Paul’s argument in that passage?
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Ok now I have answered this question in my above post to this please answer my questions in this post …

Who did the Lord ultimately Blame for the Fall of mankind was it Eve or Adam?
 
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Andrew_11:
My definition of being a sexist is believing one sex is better than the other.
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Ahhh, I understand. The answer, then, is to state rather firmly that being a priest does not make a person better than another person.
  • Liberian
 
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