Women Priests?

[steido01]

Deaconesses were the forerunners for women priests. Lutherans in north America have a long history of deaconess in schools, hospitals, social services with many motherhouses.

The first photo is the consecration of deaconesses in 1948. The second photo is recent consecration many deacons and deaconess in the LCMS. The day is coming when the Missouri Synod yields to ordaining these women.

The care and services provided by deaconesses ought not to be conflated with the very distinct call reserved to pastors - namely the proper administration of the Word and Sacraments. Those who seek to [ab]use the Scriptural and Traditional role of deaconess in a bid to create some sort of ‘progressive’ stepping stone to female ordination in the LCMS will continue to find that they are in the wrong church body.

The LCMS would sooner end its protest than succumb to the generic, liberal protestantism of Jefferts-Schori/Eaton. Female ordination is not happening. <–And that thar is the fightin’ honest truth.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Deaconesses were the forerunners for women priests. Lutherans in north America have a long history of deaconess in schools, hospitals, social services with many motherhouses.

The first photo is the consecration of deaconesses in 1948. The second photo is recent consecration of deacons and deaconess in the LCMS. The day is coming when the Missouri Synod yields to ordaining these women.

elca.org/Who-We-Are/History/ELCA-Archives/Exhibits/Lutheran-Deaconess-History.aspx

I suspect you and Moonbug use the same browser - you know the one that blocks Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

 

[Moonbug]

Were you under the impression that the CC has ever declared that women are NOT equal to anyone??

No! It has never been declared in words in a direct manner., but they have practiced the custom of women being second class for two thousand years. They were purged from the deaconate around 400 A.D. They have been pemitted to study theology in universities only within the last 100 years. They have only been permitted to serve as alter girls since Vatican II. One picture is worth a thousand words!!!

 

[Monkey1976]

No! It has never been declared in words in a direct manner., but they have practiced the custom of women being second class for two thousand years. They were purged from the deaconate around 400 A.D. They have been pemitted to study theology in universities only within the last 100 years. They have only been permitted to serve as alter girls since Vatican II. One picture is worth a thousand words!!!

http://www.marypages.com/QueenofHeaven.jpg
Yep. Second class.

 

[steido01]

Yep. Second class.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

I’ll see your two (confused) priests and raise you a Pope.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

“I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

Here’s an observation - if a Lutheran can figure out Catholic teaching, then you can too.

The amusing thing is that you are both right. The Catholic Church teaches that there is nothing about women that keeps them from being able to be ordained. Rather, as your quote shows the problem is with the authority of the Church to ordain women. It is not about theology, but authority.

 

[JonNC]

=EvangelCatholic;11282260]I wonder where all these LCMS Lutherans will go when their Synod approves female clergy?

-]When/-]if they do, I would seek out the Catholic or Orthodox Church.

When one makes absolute statements where there is no absolute it only creates the impression that bias and culture are more important than Christ.

It isn’t bias, and it is absolute. It has been absolute for the history of the Church.

Jon

 

[Tony_the_mad]

http://www.marypages.com/QueenofHeaven.jpg
Yep. Second class.

Both India and Pakistan has had a woman at the top of their government; yet that does not mean that women there are closer to being first class citizens than the US who has not had a female President.

How the Catholic Church has viewed women in its very long history is a complicated topic that can be interpreted many different and opposing ways. I have a hard time siding with either side.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

In addition, “deaconesses” in the early church period seemed to function solely to minister to other women, esp. in Holy Baptism, since at that time, it was performed in the nude on converts.

Except that the word used to describe Phoebe was the male form of the word. This (unless it was a very early scribal error) is the strongest evidence that she had a formal title.

 

[manualman]

Good question. As more churches ordain and empower women, the Vatican knows that Catholics wonder why we do not do so. It puts additional pressure on the vatican to follow suit. It is easier to condemn these churches than to do the right thing.

I’m not aware of the Catholic Church criticizing other ecclesial communities for their stances on ordination. Can you provide any such examples or is this all supposition?

I did hear a story once and am not sure if it is a joke or a true event. A World Council of Churches (or some similar group) convention was held early in the whole “women’s ordination” controversy. Bishops from a wide variety of mostly protestant organizations attended. A catholic bishop, a rabbi, and an EO patriarch were speaking when a woman Episcopal bishop approached them. They exchanged pleasantries and the woman moved on to another group. The rabbi looked sideways at the catholic bishop and asked “I noticed you referred to her as ‘bishop.’ Doesn’t that make you a bit uncomfortable?” The catholic bishop winked at the EO patriarch and replied “Not at all, she’s as much a bishop as any of the other Episcopal bishops and we’ve been polite to them for decades.”

 

[SteveVH]

I’m not aware of the Catholic Church criticizing other ecclesial communities for their stances on ordination. Can you provide any such examples or is this all supposition?

I did hear a story once and am not sure if it is a joke or a true event. A World Council of Churches (or some similar group) convention was held early in the whole “women’s ordination” controversy. Bishops from a wide variety of mostly protestant organizations attended. A catholic bishop, a rabbi, and an EO patriarch were speaking when a woman Episcopal bishop approached them. They exchanged pleasantries and the woman moved on to another group. The rabbi looked sideways at the catholic bishop and asked “I noticed you referred to her as ‘bishop.’ Doesn’t that make you a bit uncomfortable?” The catholic bishop winked at the EO patriarch and replied “Not at all, she’s as much a bishop as any of the other Episcopal bishops and we’ve been polite to them for decades.”

I’m saving this.

 

[GKC]

I’m saving this.

Courtesy is always commendable. As when Pope Paul VI presented Archbishop of Canterbury Michael Ramsey his own episcopal ring, in 1966. Cantuar wears it to this day.

GKC

 

[manualman]

Oh, sure. GKC has to show up and ruin a perfectly splendid gloating joke and shame us with superior virtue.

Grumble, groan, mutter…

 

[SteveVH]

Courtesy is always commendable. As when Pope Paul VI presented Archbishop of Canterbury Michael Ramsey his own episcopal ring, in 1966. Cantuar wears it to this day.

GKC

Indeed. I had no idea that Pope Paul VI did this. Thanks. Very interesting.

 

[Moonbug]

The amusing thing is that you are both right. The Catholic Church teaches that there is nothing about women that keeps them from being able to be ordained. Rather, as your quote shows the problem is with the authority of the Church to ordain women. It is not about theology, but authority.

BINGO !!!, But please remember that when a Pope states a belief, unless he proclaims it “From The Chair of Peter,” (Ex Cathedra), it is nothing more than his learned opinion and nothing more. But the very fact that a Pope has said it must be given grave consideration. However, some past Popes have said some real foolish things. If the subject hasn’t been established as an infallible dogma of the Church, then it’s open to debate.

 

[SteveVH]

BINGO !!!, But please remember that when a Pope states a belief, unless he proclaims it “From The Chair of Peter,” (Ex Cathedra), it is nothing more than his learned opinion and nothing more. But the very fact that a Pope has said it must be given grave consideration. However, some past Popes have said some real foolish things. If the subject hasn’t been established as an infallible dogma of the Church, then it’s open to debate.

This isn’t correct. When a pope declares something as a definitive teaching to be held by all believers, it is infallible doctrine.

“I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

 

[Moonbug]

I’ll see your two (confused) priests and raise you a Pope.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

“I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

Here’s an observation - if a Lutheran can figure out Catholic teaching, then you can too.

An Apostolic Letter does not carry the authority “From the Chair of Peter,” it is a working letter for the Church and nothing more. In this case it is John Paul’s personal belief, but it does not carry the authority as an infallible dogma. This was the Pope’s opinion, and is open to debate.

 

[PRmerger]

No! It has never been declared in words in a direct manner., but they have practiced the custom of women being second class for two thousand years. They were purged from the deaconate around 400 A.D. They have been pemitted to study theology in universities only within the last 100 years. They have only been permitted to serve as alter girls since Vatican II. One picture is worth a thousand words!!!

You seem to have some sort of confusion between orthodoxy and orthopraxy, Moonbug.

One can certainly fault the Church for her poor orthopraxy.

But as for her orthodoxy, never. She has been infallibly on target since the very beginning!

 

[PRmerger]

BINGO !!!, But please remember that when a Pope states a belief, unless he proclaims it “From The Chair of Peter,” (Ex Cathedra), it is nothing more than his learned opinion and nothing more.

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif

This is the most unfortunate result of your poor catechesis, Moonbug.

You have been incorrectly taught, I am quite sad to say.

 

[Moonbug]

Then the words of St. Paul don’t matter or were they for that time only? The word of God can not be changed.

God’s word is unchanging, but every word that came from Paul’s mouth was not the word of God. Paul fully accepted the institution of slavery. That institution is no more. He told women to be subject to their husbands. Today, Christianity looks on a marriage as an union of equals. There is no subjection involved, or shouldn’t be. Paul said a number of things that sound narrow minded today to our present era. However, they were the morays of the time, and not the Word of God.