Women Priests?

[GKC]

Indeed. I had no idea that Pope Paul VI did this. Thanks. Very interesting.

++Williams made reference to it, when he met John Paul II. He was wearing it at the time. And there is reference to similar gifts, rings/pectoral crosses, from time to time.

Paul VI and ++Ramsey had a very close relationship. It was because of that that the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission was formed. Those were the days.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Oh, sure. GKC has to show up and ruin a perfectly splendid gloating joke and shame us with superior virtue.

Grumble, groan, mutter…

Who, me?

GKC

 

[GKC]

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif

This is the most unfortunate result of your poor catechesis, Moonbug.

You have been incorrectly taught, I am quite sad to say.

And, of course, there is the Responsum ad Dubium, found here:

newadvent.org/library/docs_df95os.htm

GKC

 

[Moonbug]

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif

This is the most unfortunate result of your poor catechesis, Moonbug.

You have been incorrectly taught, I am quite sad to say.

Dear friend, I must tell you that I was taught my catechism by the Sisters of Saint Mary of Nameur before Vatican II back in the late 1940s. Now 79, I can say that I have pretty well stayed close to my Church (with the exception of early 20s when I ran wild and unbridled) but who doesn’t in their early 20s. The Church today is far different than the Church I grew up in. Since Vatican II, there have been many changes. We have that faction that want’s to embrace change with all its gusto, and we have those who want to sit in a corner and fight all change. They want the Latin Mass back and all the rituals that pre Vatican II embraced.

However, we can’t do that today, because of the confusion prevalent in the Church. The Church is shrinking. A recent Pope stated that he could live with a smaller Church when confronted with the fact that for every one convert we have today, three Catholics leave the faith. What happened to that story Christ told his Apostles about the Shepherd with a flock of 100 sheep who left them to go and search for one lost sheep. What happened in the Church to see our fellow Christians leave the Church with no more than an adieu. Our convents, our monasteries, and our seminaries are largely empty today. What happened? I have an excellent education and I have kept abreast of my Church. I have never had any catechetical education beyond that of the 8th grade. But I have studied all my life and come to the conclusion that it’s a waste of time to worry too much about the Church, because whether you are of a liberal or conservative inclination, the Holy Spirit will, in the end, have it his way.

And who will be right. I fall back on a saying of Francis Bacon who said of truth: “TRUTH IS THE DAUGHTER OF TIME.”

 

[GKC]

Dear friend, I must tell you that I was taught my catechism by the Sisters of Saint Mary of Nameur before Vatican II back in the late 1940s. Now 79, I can say that I have pretty well stayed close to my Church (with the exception of early 20s when I ran wild and unbridled) but who doesn’t in their early 20s. The Church today is far different than the Church I grew up in. Since Vatican II, there have been many changes. We have that faction that want’s to embrace change with all its gusto, and we have those who want to sit in a corner and fight all change. They want the Latin Mass back and all the rituals that pre Vatican II embraced.

However, we can’t do that today, because of the confusion prevalent in the Church. The Church is shrinking. A recent Pope stated that he could live with a smaller Church when confronted with the fact that for every one convert we have today, three Catholics leave the faith. What happened to that story Christ told his Apostles about the Shepherd with a flock of 100 sheep who left them to go and search for one lost sheep. What happened in the Church to see our fellow Christians leave the Church with no more than an adieu. Our convents, our monasteries, and our seminaries are largely empty today. What happened? I have an excellent education and I have kept abreast of my Church. I have never had any catechetical education beyond that of the 8th grade. But I have studied all my life and come to the conclusion that it’s a waste of time to worry too much about the Church, because whether you are of a liberal or conservative inclination, the Holy Spirit will, in the end, have it his way.

And who will be right. I fall back on a saying of Thomas Bacon who said of truth: “TRUTH IS THE DAUGHTER OF TIME.”

Francis Bacon.

GKC

 

[PRmerger]

Dear friend, I must tell you that I was taught my catechism by the Sisters of Saint Mary of Nameur before Vatican II back in the late 1940s.

I am sorry, Moonbug. But your catechesis was quite abysmal. Almost everything you say about the Catholic faith is tainted by error.

Most likely not your fault. The CC in the past did a dismal job providing nourishing catechesis to her flock. :sad_yes:

So it is good for you to be here and in dialogue with well catechized Catholics.

And, I would add, some of my brothers in Christ of different denominations appear to be more knowledgeable than you about the CC.

 

[Moonbug]

Francis Bacon.

GKC

Thanks ! you got there before I did.

 

[Moonbug]

I am sorry, Moonbug. But your catechesis was quite abysmal. Almost everything you say about the Catholic faith is tainted by error.

Most likely not your fault. The CC in the past did a dismal job providing nourishing catechesis to her flock. :sad_yes:

So it is good for you to be here and in dialogue with well catechized Catholics.

And, I would add, some of my brothers in Christ of different denominations appear to be more knowledgeable than you about the CC.

And I am glad you are reading what I print, because somewhere along the line you are going to read the same from some great scholars because these ideas are not cre3ated in my puny brain, but the thoughts of the great theologians in our Church. I hope you will remember some of what I posted. I’ll pray for your enlightenment and you please pray for mine. I don’t know what I know, I only know what I don’t know.

 

[PRmerger]

And I am glad you are reading what I print, because somewhere along the line you are going to read the same from some great scholars,

Scholars are greatly revered in Catholicism of course.

What would be beneficial is for you to acknowledge when you are proclaiming your opinion, scholarly or otherwise, that has divorced itself from the Catholic faith.

At the moment, you are proclaiming, “Thus says the Church” when you actually mean, “Thus says Moonbug (or some putative scholars who thus far are unnamed).”

That is an egregious error, and one that needs to be rebuked.

 

[GKC]

Thanks ! you got there before I did.

It’s happened to me, too.

It’s from his essay OF TRUTH:

“Again men have been kept back as by a kind of enchantment from progress in the sciences, by reverence for antiquity, by the authority of men accounted great in philosophy, and then by general consent. And with regard to authority it shows a feeble mind to grant so much to authors, and yet deny Time his rights, who is the author of authors, nay, rather of all authority. For rightly is truth called the daughter of time.”

Progress in the sciences, reverence for antiquity, great in philosophy, general consent.

Does that sound like what Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is concerned with, or based on, to you?

GKC

 

[Reuben_J]

Dear friend, I must tell you that I was taught my catechism by the Sisters of Saint Mary of Nameur before Vatican II back in the late 1940s. Now 79, I can say that I have pretty well stayed close to my Church (with the exception of early 20s when I ran wild and unbridled) but who doesn’t in their early 20s. The Church today is far different than the Church I grew up in. Since Vatican II, there have been many changes. We have that faction that want’s to embrace change with all its gusto, and we have those who want to sit in a corner and fight all change. They want the Latin Mass back and all the rituals that pre Vatican II embraced.

May God bless you brother. Despite what the Church has become today that you are still with her. May God continue to strengthen us in our perseverance and faithfulness.

The Church is shrinking.

Sadly, yes, in Europe and America and generally in the Western world but rising in Africa and Asia. Many churches and cathedrals cannot sustain and were sold. Parishes become smaller and church attendance sees people like your good self mostly because our youth would rather go for football matches on Sundays.

Why is it so today? Why has the society become less spiritual? Why have divorces and adulteries become the norm rather than the exception? Why there are so many children been deprived of having both parents in their lives? Some people say Vatican II saves us for what is left of us today; others says it causes the shrinking of the Church but if it is so why does the church in other part of the world is rising?

 

[MarcoPolo]

And I am glad you are reading what I print, because somewhere along the line you are going to read the same from some great scholars because these ideas are not cre3ated in my puny brain, but the thoughts of the great theologians in our Church. I hope you will remember some of what I posted. I’ll pray for your enlightenment and you please pray for mine. I don’t know what I know, I only know what I don’t know.

So who were the priests that told you there is no theological basis for a male priesthood? Names?

 

[hn160]

Deaconesses were the forerunners for women priests. Lutherans in north America have a long history of deaconess in schools, hospitals, social services with many motherhouses.

The first photo is the consecration of deaconesses in 1948. The second photo is recent consecration of deacons and deaconess in the LCMS. The day is coming when the Missouri Synod yields to ordaining these women.

elca.org/Who-We-Are/History/ELCA-Archives/Exhibits/Lutheran-Deaconess-History.aspx

My parish would leave the LC-MS if it were to ordain women.

 

[Khalid]

The only reason women are not priests is because it was not culturally acceptable in that age, the age that Christ lived. If you looked at all the cultures during that time you will not find women in power positions. It was not safe to make women missionaries and send them out on mission because of the terrible things that might happen to them. Those were heathen times and the only place a woman was safe was in her home surrounded by her family.

I have had priests tell me there is no theological reason why a woman can’t be ordained a priest. Up to about 450 AD there was an estimated 1,600 women deacons in the Church, but from that time forward were gradually pushed out of the deaconate. The Greek Orthodox Church, to this day, has ordained women deacons. Their chain of women deacons has been unbroken from the time of the Apostles. It did fade for awhile, but has come back with a gusto within the past two hundred years. Wait and see. I believe that Pope Francis will give the OK for women deacons. The time of women ordination to the priesthood will surely come, but probably not in our time. :bighanky::

The Pope has stated that the ordinary magisterium has infallibly declared that the Church can not ordain women, and himself declared the same, so it’s time to either reject papal infallibility or reject priestesses.

 

[JerryZ]

The priest that told me that, now deceased, held a very high position in one of the largest archdioceses in America. He was noted for his theological scholarship. He and his brother, who was also a priest, were dear friends of my wife and I. On what authority do you state that he was flat wrong? The person that fills the deaconate position has the same duties, whether male or female.

Well a half truth is often more dangerous than a full lie.
You cannot imagine how much more damage the former does especially if the person repeating it has any credibility.
Hopefully it was not done out of malice.
But back to the topic of our comment the reason the early Church had women participating in this “diaconate” was one of decorum and chastity.
When cathechumens would be baptized those days they would do by full immersion.
And when this happened to women to be baptized when they came out of the water even if they had a tunic remember they did not have underwear. Their anatomy would be flashed to the rest of the participants. This is not proper neither chaste.
Hence the Church made use of women to help in this.
No Holy Orders where involved. Merely a disciplinay action to retain modesty.
Once the form of baptism was carried out mostly by sprinklin instead of full immersion AND the population was prevalently Christian making the Baptism of adults less and less frequent, the necessity of female “Deacons” ceased.
The Church has never given Holy Orders to women and this is fact.

–

 

[JerryZ]

The only reason women are not priests is because it was not culturally acceptable in that age, the age that Christ lived. If you looked at all the cultures during that time you will not find women in power positions. It was not safe to make women missionaries and send them out on mission because of the terrible things that might happen to them. Those were heathen times and the only place a woman was safe was in her home surrounded by her family.

I have had priests tell me there is no theological reason why a woman can’t be ordained a priest. Up to about 450 AD there was an estimated 1,600 women deacons in the Church, but from that time forward were gradually pushed out of the deaconate. The Greek Orthodox Church, to this day, has ordained women deacons. Their chain of women deacons has been unbroken from the time of the Apostles. It did fade for awhile, but has come back with a gusto within the past two hundred years. Wait and see. I believe that Pope Francis will give the OK for women deacons. The time of women ordination to the priesthood will surely come, but probably not in our time. :bighanky::

I do not know where do you get the notion that women priestesses were a novelty back in Jesus times.
History is overflowing with examples of the opposite:

Temple of the Goddess Bau: Lagash, ca, 2350 B.C. (Administration of this temple was in the hands of Queen Shagshag)

Enheduanna. Daughter of King Sargon of Akkad. High-priestess of Moon-God temple. Ur. ca. 2300 B.C.

Erishti-Aya: Letters to King Zimri-Lim of the city-state of Mari, Akkadian Dynasty 1750 B.C.

Most of the Greek godesses had priestesses and this can also be applied to Rome, bearing in mind that their pantheon was virtually the same with different names.

Had jesus wanted to have women as apostles no one would have stopped Him from doing so. Since I trust HE IS GOD and I also believe His Apostles believed this also.
To merely think that they lied about this is blasphemy.
How can we reconcile the 2?
We can’t, either they did not lie about anything they said and wrote OR they told the truth about everything they said and or wrote.
He promised His Church would be protected forever until the end of time.
As for women, they are and have been an important part of the Church since it’s beginning. Without Mary there would be no Church.

This means that we each have distinct roles, that each alone can carry out.
I cannot be a mother, it simply is NOT my NATURE.
A woman cannot be a father, that also is against her NATURE.
A priest is a father, he acts in place of Jesus who was a man and no woman can place herself in that role because she lack the NATURE.
God uses NATURE to accomplish HIS will. WE instead want to pervert it to our own satisfaction.
Garden of Eden ALL over again.

Notes:
The ways God uses nature in our faith.

Water. In Baptism it washes away our sins.
Oil. Annoints, Chrismation, Holy Orders, Annointment of Sick, Extreme Unction.
Wine. The blood of Christ in the Eucharist
Bread (wheat). The Body of Christ in the Eucharist
Man (priests/Bishop). In Persona Christy

–

 

[Picky_Picky]

++Williams made reference to it, when he met John Paul II. He was wearing it at the time. And there is reference to similar gifts, rings/pectoral crosses, from time to time.

Paul VI and ++Ramsey had a very close relationship. It was because of that that the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission was formed. Those were the days.

GKC

Pope Benedict and Archbishop Williams seem also to have had respect for each other — as fellow scholars, perhaps, at least. The Pope invited Williams to address the Synod of Bishops in Rome, and to preach at the International Mass at Lourdes: the latter a surprising invitation, many thought, (and many may have been surprised, too, by how this Anglican spoke about Bernadette and Mary).

 

[GKC]

Pope Benedict and Archbishop Williams seem also to have had respect for each other — as fellow scholars, perhaps, at least. The Pope invited Williams to address the Synod of Bishops in Rome, and to preach at the International Mass at Lourdes: the latter a surprising invitation, many thought, (and many may have been surprised, too, by how this Anglican spoke about Bernadette and Mary).

Considering the stricture on who may preach at Mass, very surprising.

I would suppose ++Williams wore the pectoral cross given him by John Paul II.

GKC

 

[bilop]

The only reason women are not priests is because it was not culturally acceptable in that age, the age that Christ lived. If you looked at all the cultures during that time you will not find women in power positions. It was not safe to make women missionaries and send them out on mission because of the terrible things that might happen to them. Those were heathen times and the only place a woman was safe was in her home surrounded by her family.

I have had priests tell me there is no theological reason why a woman can’t be ordained a priest. Up to about 450 AD there was an estimated 1,600 women deacons in the Church, but from that time forward were gradually pushed out of the deaconate. The Greek Orthodox Church, to this day, has ordained women deacons. Their chain of women deacons has been unbroken from the time of the Apostles. It did fade for awhile, but has come back with a gusto within the past two hundred years. Wait and see. I believe that Pope Francis will give the OK for women deacons. The time of women ordination to the priesthood will surely come, but probably not in our time. :bighanky::

So, so, incorrect.

Most of the pagan religions of Christ’s time had priestesses. The Oracle of Delphi was a woman.

There would have been nothing shocking in the Ancient world about having priestesses.

Those women are not ordained Deacons.

The day a Pope tried to ordain a woman, he would fall into heresy, and cease to be Pope.

God Bless

 

[smichhertz]

It’s no surprise to me we’re having this debate. Our society is so confused on sexual identity that it can’t even clearly see what fatherhood and motherhood are.

To me, the debate on female ordination is a symptom of a much larger problem: a lack of understanding of what male and female really ARE.

May the Holy Spirit inspire our nation and lead us to the truth.