Women sacristans?

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Why? Anyone can wash the vessels. Is there something wrong with women such that they should not handle them? Or are you saying that washing the vessels would lead to more vocations?

I have never heard of a gender restriction on sacristans and can’t imagine why there would be one.
The restriction I’m suggesting isn’t based primarily on sex, but on orders. Formerly, only those who had progressed to a certain stage of orders were allowed to touch the sacred vessels (I can’t remember if this began at acolyte or subdeacon, but the restriction is much like the more stringent one that only a priest may touch the Sacrament itself). I think with our cultures’ thorough lack of understanding of the sacred a continuation of that restriction on touching sacred items would be very helpful. Sex only comes it at the second level, at which we saw it used for centuries with altar serving, that if you can’t have the actual minister you should at least have someone who could be the minister. At this point it makes sense that sense men can be clerics but women can’t, there would be a precedent for, in the absence of legislation to the effect, still preferring males over females for the job.

I think a big difference in the lines of reasoning on this issue is one of the starting point. Those who start with the historic Church as referent look to centuries-long practices and say those should continue to be our standards even if they are no longer explicitly law. Those who start with what we are used to now ask “Why should we do anything else?” without giving tradition that same normative weight.
I find the notion that women are unfit to do anything but sit quietly in church (preferably in their long jumpers and mantillas) profoundly ridiculous and disturbing.
I also find straw men ridiculous and disturbing. Your caricature of the opinions expressed above helps no one.
 
The restriction I’m suggesting isn’t based primarily on sex, but on orders. Formerly, only those who had progressed to a certain stage of orders were allowed to touch the sacred vessels (I can’t remember if this began at acolyte or subdeacon, but the restriction is much like the more stringent one that only a priest may touch the Sacrament itself). I think with our cultures’ thorough lack of understanding of the sacred a continuation of that restriction on touching sacred items would be very helpful.
You are aware that the majority of crafts, including the metalworking and making of the sacred vessels for Church is done by women, right? (Because men have “real jobs” in offices, on the rigs, and on construction sites, etc.)

If they can create them, why can’t they touch them, to lay them out or to wash them, or to put them away? This is the Sacristan we are talking about, which as I understand it, has always been a traditionally female task, because of its “behind the scenes” nature - in pre-Vatican II times, it was normally done by nuns.
 
OK, I understand your points, but I disagree with your reasoning. There are two points in particular I would like to comment on.
Sex only comes it at the second level, at which we saw it used for centuries with altar serving, that if you can’t have the actual minister you should at least have someone who could be the minister. At this point it makes sense that sense men can be clerics but women can’t, there would be a precedent for, in the absence of legislation to the effect, still preferring males over females for the job.
This doesn’t make sense to me. You are a priest or you are not. An unordained man is not a half-priest or part way priest, he is no priest at all. The fact that he is the right gender for it is just irrelevant. It doesn’t make him any more “priestly.” Why not just take the best person for the job?
I think a big difference in the lines of reasoning on this issue is one of the starting point. Those who start with the historic Church as referent look to centuries-long practices and say those should continue to be our standards even if they are no longer explicitly law. Those who start with what we are used to now ask “Why should we do anything else?” without giving tradition that same normative weight.
I think it is a question of how much to change tradition and why. If something is working well I would not change it without good reason in any context. In the religious context we also have to know something about why we do it lest we fall into some unexpected error. Applying that here, its not clear to me that the old way was working (the fact that the rule was changed may speak to this), or that there is not some good reason to change. As for looking at the why, if it was because sacristan was on teh route from acolyte to priest, that is not true anymore. If there was some more theological reason I have not heard it.
 
Puzzelannie…

Why stop the thread when he the OP is interested in our opinions on the subject?
He is not obligated to provide a Vatican document to prove anything, nor is any poster. Since he is only looking for our OPINIONS.
yes, and our opinions are worthless when it comes to matters concerning the liturgy or doctrine which are already covered by church law. I repeat, stupid useless discussion, why am I here? I am going to watch Christmas specials on Hallmark and drink hot chocolate.
 
This doesn’t make sense to me. You are a priest or you are not. An unordained man is not a half-priest or part way priest, he is no priest at all. The fact that he is the right gender for it is just irrelevant. It doesn’t make him any more “priestly.” Why not just take the best person for the job?
That’s a good point - there is absolutely no difference in status between males and females among lay people, and to the best of my knowledge, being a Sacristan has never been considered an “order” of the priesthood (otherwise they would not have employed nuns to do these tasks in pre-Vatican II times).
 
If they can create them, why can’t they touch them, to lay them out or to wash them, or to put them away? This is the Sacristan we are talking about, which as I understand it, has always been a traditionally female task, because of its “behind the scenes” nature - in pre-Vatican II times, it was normally done by nuns.
When a chalice, for instance, is created, it is a cup. Once it has been consecrated - set apart for divine service - it is a sacred vessel, and thus traditionally restricted to clerics. And, look again at the CE article I excerpted for you - cathedral sacristans were once legally required to be priests, and Trent desired that the post be given to clerics. Thus even if due to a lack of these a woman got the job (which I also highly doubt was the traditional practice, since it conflicts not only with my experience of traditional but also other experiences on this very thread), it was as a concession, not an ideal.
This doesn’t make sense to me. You are a priest or you are not. An unordained man is not a half-priest or part way priest, he is no priest at all. The fact that he is the right gender for it is just irrelevant. It doesn’t make him any more “priestly.” Why not just take the best person for the job?
Really all I can say here is that I’m not the one who came up with the principle that clerical duties should be reserved to males. It wasn’t until the mid- to late Middle Ages that women were allowed to sing in the choir, because that was a clerical task. People knew that lay men were not clerics, but they drew a line at sex. And even once women were allowed in the choir, the job of cantoring was reserved to men, such that (be it by law or simply custom) if the propers were being sung by a single individual this was reserved to a male even into the twentieth century. Altar serving provides another example. Although boys were not clerics, and thus just as lay as girls, they were allowed to serve “as” clerics while women were never permitted “on the altar” (so to speak) until the 1990s. In a parallel case, consider that when women were finally allowed to read in place of a lector (a cleric) for the first time, also in the mid-twentieth century, they were supposed to do this from outside the sanctuary. The main trend I’m picking up here is that even as old distinctions are oh-so-gradually worn down over the course of centuries, certain preferences or restrictions still generally obtain for quite a while as conservative pull toward the old norms.
 
I think it is a question of how much to change tradition and why. If something is working well I would not change it without good reason in any context. In the religious context we also have to know something about why we do it lest we fall into some unexpected error. Applying that here, its not clear to me that the old way was working (the fact that the rule was changed may speak to this), or that there is not some good reason to change. As for looking at the why, if it was because sacristan was on teh route from acolyte to priest, that is not true anymore. If there was some more theological reason I have not heard it.
And hence we arrive here. It is of course, a question of being open to prudent revision of tradition. But there is also the serious question of assessing the wisdom of the rather precipitious changes introduced in the 70s which even Pope Benedict himself has expressed suspicion and outright dissatisfaction over, often precisely because of how rashly they were accomplished. The dichotomy I tried to sketch above (between start with tradition and start with now) isn’t a difference between people who think you need a good reason to change and those who don’t, but between people who question current practice because they wonder if there was sufficient reason to institute it to begin with on the one hand, and on the other hand those who say we would need a good reason to suggest changing from what we do, in fact, now have. One says “Because of what we did think then, I doubt there is enough reason to seriously depart from it, despite what may be allowed now” whereas the other says “Because we have a discipline in force, you’re going to have to bring sufficient evidence to get me to show a preference toward traditional practice that is not explicit in the law.”

So I’m not saying it’s clear that we should have only clerics touch the sacred vessels, or that only men should be able to touch them, but I would also certainly not admit that it’s* clear* there needed to be a change. I am saying that we know from the pope’s own mouth that certain ill-advised changes were rushed through in the liturgical reform, so I think we have fair reasons to question our current norms in light of traditional law and custom. From there I say that despite conceding the legality of female sacristans, it might be wisest to adhere as closely as we reasonably can to our traditional restrictions. If all the men in a parish are disinterested ignoramuses, well then appoint a woman and get the job done, but if there is a qualified man and a qualified woman, I would default to the man in deference to tradition.
yes, and our opinions are worthless when it comes to matters concerning the liturgy or doctrine which are already covered by church law. I repeat, stupid useless discussion, why am I here? I am going to watch Christmas specials on Hallmark and drink hot chocolate.
It is absolutely false that our opinions are worthless so long as there is a law on the books. That is unadulterated legal positivism, as if a law is good simply by the fact of its promulgation. We have to obey the laws, not agree with them, and we are also fully entitled to give our opinions to our sacred pastors for the good of the church. So if we - especially those of us with degrees in theology or canon law - are able to hold opinions on the matter and even submit them to the hierarchy, I don’t see why these would be worthless. If one of a bishop’s lay friends comes up to him and says he thinks there is a good argument for only using one among a set of options, do you think the bishop is apt to tell him about how his opinion is worthless in light of the mere existence of another option?
 
It is absolutely false that our opinions are worthless so long as there is a law on the books. That is unadulterated legal positivism, as if a law is good simply by the fact of its promulgation. We have to obey the laws, not agree with them, and we are also fully entitled to give our opinions to our sacred pastors for the good of the church. So if we - especially those of us with degrees in theology or canon law - are able to hold opinions on the matter and even submit them to the hierarchy, I don’t see why these would be worthless. If one of a bishop’s lay friends comes up to him and says he thinks there is a good argument for only using one among a set of options, do you think the bishop is apt to tell him about how his opinion is worthless in light of the mere existence of another option?
I think you are on both sides of legal positivism here. If we should keep the old rule merely because it was a rule for many years, even if we see no good reason for it, why should we reject the current rule now merely because we don’t see a reason to change? If the old rule was important just because it was the rule, why is the same not true for the new rule?
 
I think you are on both sides of legal positivism here. If we should keep the old rule merely because it was a rule for many years, even if we see no good reason for it, why should we reject the current rule now merely because we don’t see a reason to change? If the old rule was important just because it was the rule, why is the same not true for the new rule?
Well, actually one of the properties of good law in general is stability - too much change erodes the power of law so from that standpoint we shouldn’t change it unless we think it is necessary to achieve some good. This is why Benedict did not immediately change liturgical laws he doesn’t like, etc. and also why I wouldn’t changing our current (lack of) law on sacristans if we could achieve a reasonable situation without doing so.

But I’m not arguing that we should adhere to the traditional norms merely because they were the norms. I actually tried to articulate two principles within those older norms which suggest to me that we should continue to try to approximate them as closely as possible. The first principle is that contact with the sacred should be restricted. That which is most sacred (the Eucharist) should continue to be restricted to the hands of the ordained, and that most closely associated with the Eucharist (primarily the vessels in which it is contained) should be restricted to those who have somehow been dedicated to sacred service (in our present legal reality, this would probably extend to acolytes). Here as well, I don’t simply recognize that this is the older principle but I think it remains key for Catholicism today, when a misunderstanding or total lack of the concept of the sacred leads to many deformations of practice and even of the faith.

The second principle, then, was that in the absence of those who are allowed to perform a clerical function (in this case handling the sacred vessels), we try to fill the job with someone who could be a cleric. I think I gave sufficient historical examples of this above. When a principle is a old as this one we owe it deference because we need to give it the benefit of the doubt that there is some good reasoning behind it. Here I think the reasoning is that we don’t want the exercise of the ministry by someone not actually instituted in it to confuse ourselves or others about the nature of that ministry. So if we think service at the altar, for instance, is an essentially clerical function, aren’t we sending a confusing message by letting someone serve who could never possibly be a cleric? Or if we think the office of sanctifying is entrusted primarily to the bishop, then the pastor, etc., what kind of message would be saying by having a deacon confer a blessing while the bishop is standing right beside him? (canonically, those in lower orders are supposed to defer to those in higher orders - this conveys our belief about the fullness of the priesthood in the episcopacy)

So the argument runs: If we continue to value our sense of the sacred (which I think we should) and we also think our non-ideal practice should try not to obscure the principles behind ideal practice (which I also think remains valid), and both these principles were in fact the operating principles of the Church for many centuries until very recently, shouldn’t we demand compelling positive reasons to depart from the principles? Sacrosanctum Concilium itself said that there should be no change unless truly necessary (not just possibly beneficial), yet no one has presented any evidence as to why it might have been *necessary *to alter our restrictions on contact with the sacred. Why then should we not ask to see these reasons and, while waiting, seek to continue obeying the operative principles we have received through tradition?
 
This doesn’t make sense to me. You are a priest or you are not. An unordained man is not a half-priest or part way priest, he is no priest at all.
The sacrament is called Holy Orders (plural), because yes, it actually does have different levels. Only the bishop has the fullness of orders, whereas the following participate in it, but to a lesser degree:
  • priest
  • deacon
  • reader
  • acolyte
And in a non-sacramental yet still liturgical way:
  • candidacy
All are men.
 
The sacrament is called Holy Orders (plural), because yes, it actually does have different levels. Only the bishop has the fullness of orders, whereas the following participate in it, but to a lesser degree:
  • priest
  • deacon
  • reader
  • acolyte
And in a non-sacramental yet still liturgical way:
  • candidacy
All are men.
Readers and acolytes are not part of Holy Orders. They are steps to it, but the first level of Ordination is to the Diaconate.
 
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