Women: SAHM vs demanding career? Question from a male

[DaveEucharist]

I am a 27 year old male with a Catholic girlfriend. We were “together” before but separated and remained friends, etc. We both wen’t through a period of time when we liked each other but just didn’t care enough to be in “relationship” such as call each other, assume all free time spent with each other.

The role of women as stay at home moms (SAHM), etc, concern me to the point where I think maybe I do not fit well with Catholicism. I converted when I was younger because I concluded that if there is a God (I believe) then he created the Catholic Church. I do not believe in Protestantism-AT ALL.

I find myself unattracted to Catholic women (some) that are very interested in having children and being SAHM, etc. There are some women who just LOVE to have lots of children and be SAHM. This leads to the whole large Catholic family culture. I absolutely do not want many children. Four?Five?Six?No. Some Catholics just have them so casually! It’s so strange to me. But, whatever floats their boat. I assume they can afford it: college tuition, exclusive boarding school that leads to prestigious colleges (I want this for my kids, I had it).

My girlfriend and I are both very ambitious people. We are Ivy League educated and have medical (allied health) careers close to neurology and neurosurgery (we don’t work in the same institutions). We are both applying to medical school (Doctor of Medicine) and our current careers lead us to consider specializing in neurosurgery. These residency positions for this are competitive: there are only about ~200 positions in the entire country per year and the residency (sort of like paid internship) is 6-7 years.

We discussed that our current relationship will probably end if we end up far apart for medical school or even just medical school period. However, we will enjoy each others’ companionship for now (opera, travel, etc). We are both willing to forget about each other and neglect our romantic desires for this.

Even if we separate, what is to become of Catholic women like her? You can’t just get pregnant all the time as neurosurgery resident. Giving birth to large numbers of children (3+) even until the third decade can bring down her prestigious/demanding career! Or, does Catholicism somehow indirectly discourage women from high profile careers like neurosurgery, etc? Sounds just a little to 1950’s mythical to me.

If I am not attracted to the spectrum of Catholic women that are just so into having children all the time, am I doomed? I just am attracted to women that aspire more than to stay home and take care of baby after baby.

 

[DaveEucharist]

And if I have daughters, why should they even work hard to enter prestigious undergraduate schools, etc, if it is more ideal for them to be SAHM?

 

[mommamaree]

Perhaps the problem is not in the Catholic teachings on marriage, but rather the problem is with the assumption that a demanding career as a neurosurgeon is compatible with the vocation of marriage. Children are the supreme good of marriage. Married couples promise to lovingly welcome the children God sends to them. It is true that companionship and physical intimacy are enjoyable aspects of marriage, but marriage itself is ordered to children. So, if a demanding career would prohibit or severely limit one’s ability to honor the promise made before God to lovingly welcome children, perhaps it is incompatible to marriage. Workaholics are notorious at failing to nurture spouse and children, and it matters little if the workaholic is husband or wife. In a similar way, a prominent doctor in a demanding field would be married to his/her work, and would be far less able to pursue marriage and parenthood.
As an aside, when speaking with people about this topic IRL, try to exercise a bit more charity and tact. Your description of larger families and sahms sounded quite dismissive.

 

[DaveEucharist]

Perhaps the problem is not in the Catholic teachings on marriage, but rather the problem is with the assumption that a demanding career as a neurosurgeon is compatible with the vocation of marriage. Children are the supreme good of marriage. Married couples promise to lovingly welcome the children God sends to them. It is true that companionship and physical intimacy are enjoyable aspects of marriage, but marriage itself is ordered to children. So, if a demanding career would prohibit or severely limit one’s ability to honor the promise made before God to lovingly welcome children, perhaps it is incompatible to marriage. Workaholics are notorious at failing to nurture spouse and children, and it matters little if the workaholic is husband or wife. In a similar way, a prominent doctor in a demanding field would be married to his/her work, and would be far less able to pursue marriage and parenthood.
As an aside, when speaking with people about this topic IRL, try to exercise a bit more charity and tact. Your description of larger families and sahms sounded quite dismissive.

I apologize. I didn’t mean it like that. I was not raised Catholic so I did not grow up with various Catholic “subcultures” around me. I was trying to come across as “culture shocked”. My parents had demanding careers and we had nannies. But, my parents spent time with me and I love them.

 

[DaveEucharist]

mommamaree;9544634**:

Perhaps the problem is not in the Catholic teachings on marriage, but rather the problem is with the assumption that a demanding career as a neurosurgeon is compatible with the vocation of marriage.**

Children are the supreme good of marriage. Married couples promise to lovingly welcome the children God sends to them. It is true that companionship and physical intimacy are enjoyable aspects of marriage, but marriage itself is ordered to children. So, if a demanding career would prohibit or severely limit one’s ability to honor the promise made before God to lovingly welcome children, perhaps it is incompatible to marriage. Workaholics are notorious at failing to nurture spouse and children, and it matters little if the workaholic is husband or wife. In a similar way, a prominent doctor in a demanding field would be married to his/her work, and would be far less able to pursue marriage and parenthood.
As an aside, when speaking with people about this topic IRL, try to exercise a bit more charity and tact. Your description of larger families and sahms sounded quite dismissive.

Does Catholicism promote that women rather than men give up ideas of such careers in favor of SAHM rather than have the man be more SAHD?

 

[DaveEucharist]

Perhaps the problem is not in the Catholic teachings on marriage, but rather the problem is with the assumption that a demanding career as a neurosurgeon is compatible with the vocation of marriage. Children are the supreme good of marriage. Married couples promise to lovingly welcome the children God sends to them. It is true that companionship and physical intimacy are enjoyable aspects of marriage, but marriage itself is ordered to children.** So, if a demanding career would prohibit or severely limit one’s ability to honor the promise made before God to lovingly welcome children, perhaps it is incompatible to marriage. **Workaholics are notorious at failing to nurture spouse and children, and it matters little if the workaholic is husband or wife. In a similar way, a prominent doctor in a demanding field would be married to his/her work, and would be far less able to pursue marriage and parenthood.
As an aside, when speaking with people about this topic IRL, try to exercise a bit more charity and tact. Your description of larger families and sahms sounded quite dismissive.

What is one to do then (male or female)? Relationships but no marriage? Be totally alone? What if they want to enjoy the other finer things in life (and their income allow this) but are unable to commit to marriage?

 

[mommamaree]

I apologize. I didn’t mean it like that. I was not raised Catholic so I did not grow up with various Catholic “subcultures” around me. I was trying to come across as “culture shocked”. My parents had demanding careers and we had nannies. But, my parents spent time with me and I love them.

Thank you for that explanation. I assumed you meant no offense, which is why I pointed out the problem with your description, rather than act all offended. just a good idea to be careful about it, so you aren’t misunderstood.

 

[mommamaree]

Does Catholicism promote that women rather than men give up ideas of such careers in favor of SAHM rather than have the man be more SAHD?

No, I have never seen any such teaching. However, the reality is that the woman physically “bears” sole responsibility for the nurturing of a pregnancy and the nourishing of a new life. Her role in childbearing and lactation imposes an obligation on her husband to provide for and protect his wife and unborn child, and later, the new mom a nd their newborn. Assuming the couple can come to a satisfactory arrangement that allows her necessary time for rest and bonding and regaining strength, there is no problem with SAHDs. I have known a couple of great examples of such men.

 

[DaveEucharist]

Other examples of women: famous opera singers. If they just kept having kids and being SAHM, they could not travel world singing at major opera houses and contributing to this great art form. Nattalie Dessay, Diana Damrau, Deborah, Voigt, etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=1y5BQPmxho0

Are they wrong?

 

[mommamaree]

What is one to do then (male or female)? Relationships but no marriage? Be totally alone? What if they want to enjoy the other finer things in life (and their income allow this) but are unable to commit to marriage?

We all must make difficult choices about this. My own husband has, at times, been chomping at the bit to be more ambitious about climbing the professional ladder. He is incredibly intelligent, highly motivated, and works in a field where he could earn obscene amounts of money. However, most of his peers, in professional level, not age, are on their second or third marriage, or unhappily divorced and celibate by choice now. He saw what devastation was likely if he pursued his ambitions instead of his vocation, and thank God he decided it was not for him.
For others, their professional aspirations are a greater priority. We must not forget that the single life is a vocation, too, not just marriage or religious vocations. But there are only 24 hours in a day and we are all finite. Being the brightest and most talented surgeon may not be compatible with being a loving and attentive spouse and parent. This is difficult. I myself chose to leave my PhD program because I discovered it would have meant I would have to continue to postpone pregnancy for about a decade and I would be in the lab or on campus for most of my waking hours. I was not about to turn my back on my husband or give up my dream of becoming a mother. Other men and women might not look at things in the same way. I am a SAHM because God wanted it that way. All my opportunities for a grand career required me to live apart from my husband. Not everyone is put in this predicament, but I have known many who have been. Generally speaking, when one spouse is in a demanding field, the family must have a SAH parent to survive. But even then, it places enormous strain on the family.
These are all things for you to think about before discerning marriage with a particular lady. We all must make tough choices. We all must sacrifice some good for another good. We cannot have it all. We cannot chart our own course without praying to discern God’s will for our life.
God bless you in your time of discernment.

 

[DaveEucharist]

We all must make difficult choices about this. My own husband has, at times, been chomping at the bit to be more ambitious about climbing the professional ladder. He is incredibly intelligent, highly motivated, and works in a field where he could earn obscene amounts of money. However, most of his peers, in professional level, not age, are on their second or third marriage, or unhappily divorced and celibate by choice now. He saw what devastation was likely if he pursued his ambitions instead of his vocation, and thank God he decided it was not for him.
For others, their professional aspirations are a greater priority. We must not forget that the single life is a vocation, too, not just marriage or religious vocations. But there are only 24 hours in a day and we are all finite. Being the brightest and most talented surgeon may not be compatible with being a loving and attentive spouse and parent. This is difficult. I myself chose to leave my PhD program because I discovered it would have meant I would have to continue to postpone pregnancy for about a decade and I would be in the lab or on campus for most of my waking hours. I was not about to turn my back on my husband or give up my dream of becoming a mother. Other men and women might not look at things in the same way. I am a SAHM because God wanted it that way. All my opportunities for a grand career required me to live apart from my husband. Not everyone is put in this predicament, but I have known many who have been. Generally speaking, when one spouse is in a demanding field, the family must have a SAH parent to survive. But even then, it places enormous strain on the family.
These are all things for you to think about before discerning marriage with a particular lady. We all must make tough choices. We all must sacrifice some good for another good. We cannot have it all. We cannot chart our own course without praying to discern God’s will for our life.
God bless you in your time of discernment.

Could my past/experience somewhat “superficial” relationship (all for casual fun, easily willing to end it, etc) mean that it is better for me to be single. I am pretty much entirely focused on remaining in medical school somewhere in New York/Philadlephia/Boston (major medical training areas) and a good residency program? I don’t just want a job…I want to be a major member of my field, advance it, write books, do research,** be a pioneer**, etc. I really can’t comprehend anything else. My current girlfriend is this way also.

 

[jeannetherese]

Is it possible that there is more than one question on your mind: the question of vocation and the question of how to best support a family in a given culture?
Not every person is called to marriage. some discern a vocation to the religious life and some discern a vocation to the single life. Some careers may be more compatible with certain vocations. Of course, many people find they must make adjustment to deal with the contradictions between their ideals and their lived reality.
This leads to the second possible issue-how to shape that lived reality to make it more user friendly to those who discern a vocation to marriage and struggle to provide the best parenting possible with demanding careers.
One solution might be for a parent to work part time or to withdraw from waged labor if that is economically possible. Of course that will not be possible for many. Another possibility might be to lobby for additional paternal and or maternal leave as part of our national values that support families.
I am sure that there are many more possibilities, these spring to mind at present, and I’m sure you have many more suggestions to share based on what you are seeing.
I wish you and your girlfriend the very best as you continue your discernment processes.
May God bless us all!

 

[DaveEucharist]

Is it possible that there is more than one question on your mind: the question of vocation and the question of how to best support a family in a given culture?
Not every person is called to marriage. some discern a vocation to the religious life and some discern a vocation to the single life. Some careers may be more compatible with certain vocations. Of course, many people find they must make adjustment to deal with the contradictions between their ideals and their lived reality.
This leads to the second possible issue-how to shape that lived reality to make it more user friendly to those who discern a vocation to marriage and struggle to provide the best parenting possible with demanding careers.
One solution might be for a parent to work part time or to withdraw from waged labor if that is economically possible. Of course that will not be possible for many. Another possibility might be to lobby for additional paternal and or maternal leave as part of our national values that support families.
I am sure that there are many more possibilities, these spring to mind at present, and I’m sure you have many more suggestions to share based on what you are seeing.
I wish you and your girlfriend the very best as you continue your discernment processes.
May God bless us all!

I’m getting the feeling there must be sacrifice. Possibly strange, but I’m 27 have never had to make any sacrifices in my life.

 

[DaveEucharist]

We all must make difficult choices about this. My own husband has, at times, been chomping at the bit to be more ambitious about climbing the professional ladder. He is incredibly intelligent, highly motivated, and works in a field where he could earn obscene amounts of money. However, most of his peers, in professional level, not age, are on their second or third marriage, or unhappily divorced and celibate by choice now. He saw what devastation was likely if he pursued his ambitions instead of his vocation, and thank God he decided it was not for him.
For others, their professional aspirations are a greater priority. We must not forget that the single life is a vocation, too, not just marriage or religious vocations. But there are only 24 hours in a day and we are all finite. Being the brightest and most talented surgeon may not be compatible with being a loving and attentive spouse and parent. This is difficult. I myself chose to leave my PhD program because I discovered it would have meant I would have to continue to postpone pregnancy for about a decade and I would be in the lab or on campus for most of my waking hours. I was not about to turn my back on my husband or give up my dream of becoming a mother. Other men and women might not look at things in the same way. I am a SAHM because God wanted it that way. All my opportunities for a grand career required me to live apart from my husband. Not everyone is put in this predicament, but I have known many who have been. Generally speaking, when one spouse is in a demanding field, the family must have a SAH parent to survive. But even then, it places enormous strain on the family.
These are all things for you to think about before discerning marriage with a particular lady. We all must make tough choices. We all must sacrifice some good for another good. We cannot have it all. We cannot chart our own course without praying to discern God’s will for our life.
God bless you in your time of discernment.

Was your PhD in the sciences? Can you explain why life as a mother/wife was more appealing to you than that of a scientist? Please don’t take this as offensive, I just don’t understand. Maybe my mind is wired for something different from family life.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

My first inclination is to say, she must choose one or the other.

Sorry, but that is the way it is. We can’t do everything and be good at everything. Its not the way things are handed out. To think of life this way is a bit too much of looking through rose colored glasses.

There is no discouragement from the Catholic church for her to pursue her career. I think the only thing here is to remember that the Catholic Church wants people to act responsibly and choose responsibly. For her, if her desires are to serve as a doctor, then she should go that way. If she feels that giving up the choice of having a family is too much, then she should sacrifice the desire to be a doctor.

Also, nothing within Catholicism says that we are supposed to spit out child after child or have a ton of them. Indeed one must care for that child and again, be responsible. All the church asks is that you are open to life. You might be seeing something that is cultural.

A question for you: If this young lady you are attracted to would decide she will be a SAHM for 15 years while you and her (married) raised your 2 children (I’m guessing your preferred number), would you not be attracted to her? Is the attraction HER, or her potential for notoriety and ambition? Because if the latter is the case, you may not love her for her, but love what being around her does for you and your ambition/drive. For marriage one should look at what makes the bond, because as life goes on, sometimes these things change and cause problems. Just asking.

 

[DaveEucharist]

**My first inclination is to say, she must choose one or the other. **

Sorry, but that is the way it is. We can’t do everything and be good at everything. Its not the way things are handed out. To think of life this way is a bit too much of looking through rose colored glasses.

There is no discouragement from the Catholic church for her to pursue her career. I think the only thing here is to remember that the Catholic Church wants people to act responsibly and choose responsibly. For her, if her desires are to serve as a doctor, then she should go that way. If she feels that giving up the choice of having a family is too much, then she should sacrifice the desire to be a doctor.

Also, nothing within Catholicism says that we are supposed to spit out child after child or have a ton of them. Indeed one must care for that child and again, be responsible. All the church asks is that you are open to life. You might be seeing something that is cultural.

A question for you: If this young lady you are attracted to would decide she will be a SAHM for 15 years while you and her (married) raised your 2 children (I’m guessing your preferred number), would you not be attracted to her? Is the attraction HER, or her potential for notoriety and ambition? Because if the latter is the case, you may not love her for her, but love what being around her does for you and your ambition/drive. For marriage one should look at what makes the bond, because as life goes on, sometimes these things change and cause problems. Just asking.

Is it easier for you to say “one or the other” in regards to her or to me (male, obviously). We have the same professional goals and they are hardcore/extreme in the medical community. We will not be happy with just practicing but want to be pioneers, like people who will be remembered in textbooks, medical lecture halls, etc, etc, etc. This isn’t just wishful thinking about we have related careers now and want step it up.

Would I be attracted to her based on the circumstances you stated? Probably not because right now I admire her for what she wants (one of the reasons). I wouldn’t want her to give that up.

I guess we both just don’t want to be like everyone else: normal job, family etc (PLEASE DON’T TAKE THAT AS DISMISSIVE, I DON’T MEANT THAT).

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Just wondering, ever hear of Saint Giuseppe Moscati?

 

[DaveEucharist]

Just wondering, ever hear of Saint Giuseppe Moscati?

Yes

 

[Gertabelle]

Other examples of women: famous opera singers. If they just kept having kids and being SAHM, they could not travel world singing at major opera houses and contributing to this great art form. Nattalie Dessay, Diana Damrau, Deborah, Voigt, etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=1y5BQPmxho0

Are they wrong?

Neurosurgeons, opera singers, business owners, CEOs – it really doesn’t matter what example you give, the answer is the same:

Marriage is a vocation, not a right.

Being a parent is a vocation, not a right.

So what is a vocation? From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1877 The vocation of humanity is to show forth the image of God and to be transformed into the image of the Father’s only Son. This vocation takes a personal form since each of us is called to enter into the divine beatitude; it also concerns the human community as a whole.

While happiness in this life is a good thing, and a blessing from God, the ultimate happiness He wants to give each of us is heaven. Our work in this life should aid in our sanctification towards the end of attaining heaven, and aiding those around us in doing the same.

If one is called to marriage as a vocation, and acts on that call, then he needs to put his heart and strength into being a Godly husband and father, leading his wife and children to Christ – same with a woman called to marriage.

One’s work in this world is not necessarily one’s vocation, however. I am a teacher, and I bust my buns to serve Christ by serving His wee ones and their families. And this does indeed aid in my sanctification if I fulfill my duties for the love of God. But I am a mother first, so my duties as a Christian mother must come before my duties as a teacher – MUST! And honestly, sometimes my son has a need to learn to let go of what he wants to help mom at work (like setting up the classroom before school starts).

Well, I’m not as eloquent as I would like this evening. My point is that each person must discern the plan of God for their life. Don’t just assume that because everyone else gets married, that that’s what you are called to. If God is calling you to marry this woman who is also going to be a surgeon, then He will make the right way for you.

There is no mandate in Catholicism for mothers to be stay-at-home moms. But there is much written about the responsibilities of parents to be their children’s first teachers of the Faith – this cannot morally be handed over to someone else to take care of. And there is much said about openness to life in the sexual act, and about the spacing of children, and how to find blessing and avoid sin in these areas.

Sorry. Rambling.

God bless you, dear one. I know He is and will continue to do so! I’ll be praying for you.

Gertie

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Is it easier for you to say “one or the other” in regards to her to me (male, obviously). We have the same professional goals and they are hardcore/extreme in the medical community. We will not be happy with just practicing but want to be pioneers, like people who will be remembered in textbooks, medical lecture halls, etc, etc, etc. This isn’t just wishful thinking about we have related careers now and want step it up.

Would I be attracted to her based on the circumstances you stated? Probably not because right now I admire her for what she wants (one of the reasons). I wouldn’t want her to give that up.

I guess we both just don’t want to be like everyone else: normal job, family etc (PLEASE DON’T TAKE THAT AS DISMISSIVE, I DON’T MEANT THAT).

I think what you have said is fine- not dismissive. Its good to know what you want and how you feel. Not everyone is made for the same endeavors!

• I’m* not even sure I want the “normal family” as you say! I also have ambitions in my line of work. I also, as a female, am struggling to know which one I should pursue or give up. I do know that for my kids to have as good as an upbringing my parents gave for me (which I would want), it would require I gave up my ambitions, or at least until the littlest one would be on his or her way.

I’m not sure I understand your first sentence.

I guess I was trying to say that you and her's relationship sounds more of a peer support type thing-  you get each other geared up, focused and directed.    I'm not sure that is deep enough for a marriage..

…but then again, I’m not married. Its just my opinion, and I most definitely be wrong! I wouldn’t want to steer your heart away from the path God has directed you. Just shooting out some inquiries to think about I guess.