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Rence
Guest
No… but you still have to be open to life, and accept any children that do come your way. Also consider that you may change your mind after having two kids, and may want more. Life doesn’t come with a script.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear LightBound,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
Saint Gianna, dear friend, is frequently appealed to in discussions of this sort on CAF, as if her case somehow lent weighty support for married women working outside of the home. This, however, is not as compelling an argument as some modern Catholics are wont to allege.
First, dear friend, when our Church recognizes someome as a saint, it means that they are in Heaven, it clearly does not mean that all of their actions or choices were good. You may recollect that St. Padre Pio refused to hear the confessions of women who were attired indecently in dresses or skirts less than 8 inches below the knee. However, how many contemporary Catholics (even among conservatives) think that Padre Pio’s actions should serve as a model for all priests, or that the modest clothing standards which he enforced should be applied to all women?
Moreover, dear friend, whilst it is quite true that the Saints are to serve as examples to us, they are not the only guide that we have. They are, if you will, signposts that point towards Christ and the Church which He established. Placing our personal notions respecting the merits of a particular saint’s actions over and above Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, is not a prudent or appropriate method for applying the Catholic faith.
Occasionally, of course, it will be necessary and appropriate for a married women to work outside of the home, for example, the long term physical or mental illness of the husband. Saint Gianna Molla, dear friend, evidently had a unique calling by God to serve in the field of medicine, however, that in no way undercuts the truth that *married *women should remain at home and submit themselves to the divinely ordained role of wife and mother.
Going to Heaven, dear friend, does not mean that everything a person did in their life was correct, but it does mean that they died in a state of grace, so that the events leading up to the death of a saint deserve special attention. So how did St. Gianna die? She refused to have an abortion when she was informed that it was “medically necessary”. She gave birth to her child who survived, but Gianna sadly died as a result of complications. St. Gianna sacrificed her life for her child’s. Thus the final act of her life was not done as a doctor or a ‘career woman’ but as a mother.
Finally, the Saints are indeed worthy of emulation, but it is unwise and un-Catholic to use them for polemical purposes to support secular opinions that are at variance with Scripture and Sacred Tradition throughout the ages. St. Gianna was a heroic woman and her life has much to teach us, dear friend, but her decision to work in the field of medicine was unique. In fact, she regarded her calling to work as a doctor a special “mission”, which implies something out of the ordinary and not normative. The normal family arrangement is for married women to be, to use the biblical phraseology, “workers at home” (Titus 2: 5).
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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holyrood
Guest
Actually, in my research for my writing, I stumbled across a well-known singer, I think from the late 1800s, who had 8 children, who waited and watched from backstage. Between her parts, she spent time with them.
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holyrood
Guest
I commend you on that. It’s one of the reasons I returned to the Catholic Church.
First, I think you should go about this whole question in a different order, rather than starting by thinking that you don’t want a bunch of children. You had a logical, solid reason for choosing the Catholic faith, much the same as mine. My thought process, from there was that if God created the Catholic Church, maybe I better think a little more deeply before I just dismiss its teachings and fill them in with what the world tells me.
That, of course, is what landed me in the position of being one of those women who has lots of children!
But you’re making assumptions about these women. Some may just love having lots of children, and that’s fine. Some may simply have chosen to follow the Church’s teaching and may end up with a lot of children or not. Honestly, I have tons of friends who never touch birth control and only have two or three children. They just don’t get pregnant. So a Catholic wife who doesn’t use birth control does not mean you’ll end up with a bunch of kids.
You state you don’t want a bunch of kids. I never set out to have this many, but sometimes, we find ourselves with blessings we didn’t realize would be blessings. No, I didn’t want as in plan, as in deliberately have, this many kids. But I’m so grateful that things went according to God’s plans instead of mine.
You’re also making lots of assumptions about those families with lots of kids. Have them casually??? Well…what in the world does that even mean? As in, dancing down the yellow brick road totally unaware of what another pregnancy and another child means? Living in denial and rose-colored glasses? No, I doubt anyone is doing that. That most definitely does not describe me. However, I also believe that a church created by God and nurtured by 2,000 years of great minds and great saints has something to teach me, and I chose to step out in faith. It has been a great lesson in trust and faith, in seeing how, time after time, God has provided and cared for me. I have learned things I never would have learned had I not stepped out in faith in this area. I have become a person I never would have become, and I’m grateful to God for that, to my children, to my friend who challenged me to live the Catholic faith I claimed to believe. And, of course, I love each and every one of the kids dearly and am so grateful I have each one, especially knowing they would not exist, had I followed the way of the world.
You make the assumption that people with lots of kids can afford all sorts of things. Some can, some can’t. But they’ve made a choice that being open to life is important to them. No, I can’t afford to send my kids to college. Right now, one is going to school on a full academic scholarship and has come up with a plan to get through grad school, too, without loans. Another is going on a half scholarship, working on campus and during the summer, and fully intends to put himself through law school. I have no doubt he’ll do it. My kids are learning the value of hard work and the great confidence and self-respect that comes with that.
I also think it’s interesting that money concerns you when you are looking at possibly having the income of two doctors. If anyone could support a large family, it should be you.
What will become of her is whatever she decides will become of her. Does she value following the Catholic Church’s teaching on artificial birth control? If so, she may simply not get pregnant often.
Or she may have 14 or 16 children. And yes, you absolutely can be a doctor with a large family. The most beautiful Catholic family I ever knew, with ten children, had a mother who was a doctor and raised a stellar, beautiful family. I know a Catholic mother of 6 who worked at NASA and currently run multiple businesses and web sites on political issues. I know a mother of 8 who runs at least two businesses on the internet. I know a mother of more than that who plays a dozen instruments and has published two novels that sell well and get excellent reviews.
I myself started my master’s degree when I was pregnant with my 6th child and finished it right on target with my class…while pregnant with twins.
Maybe she’ll have many children and be able to continue a prestigious career. Maybe she herself will decide at some point that she wants to focus on her children. Maybe she’ll have a husband who makes juggling career and children possible or maybe she’ll have a husband who fully supports her (possible) wish to spend more time with kids. It may be at some point that a prestigious career is simply no longer her highest priority, and I, personally, don’t think it should be. It’s not what we take into eternity; it’s not what God will judge us on.
No, it doesn’t.
See, here’s where you sound dismissive…‘women that are just so into having children all the time.’ It’s dismissive of those women and dismissive of the value of motherhood and of the children themselves.
However, you are in luck. It’s fairly obvious (unfortunately, from my perspective) that many women who call themselves Catholic have no intention of being open to more than two or three children. But even if that weren’t the case, there are definitely women who want to be open to life and follow the Church’s teaching, but also have plenty of interest and intellect.
I think why it sounds so dismissive is because you seem to be implying that ‘women who want lots of kids’ and ‘women with interests and intellect’ are mutually exclusive. That just isn’t so.
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holyrood
Guest
I’m not sure if I count as a ‘traditional’ large family since I have advanced degrees and work outside the home, but in my heart, I would certainly regard myself as a traditional large family. I don’t look down on anyone for their family size for two reasons.
- As I mentioned in another post, I am well aware that plenty of my friends with smaller families simply never got pregnant after the first two children. Two is what God gave them. Why should I care? But I never assume anything about people based on their number of children.
- This is between them and God. I see the wisdom and the reasoning in the Church’s teaching on artificial birth control. But I don’t have to answer to God for anyone else’s decisions, and I think in the world we live in, it’s a longer, harder road to seeing the value in the Church’s teaching. I hope more people would really think harder about it. I think people cheat themselves out of great blessings (and I don’t even mean a bunch of kids–I mean other, intangible values that come with stepping out in faith). But judge them? No.
Actually, reading your posts, I’m impressed with your conversion and even going to Adoration. When I was 27 and going to Adoration, it was always me and a bunch of old ladies. Even now, in my 40s, I’d say most of the other people in the Adoration chapel are 25 to 40 years older than me. It’s great to hear of a 20-something converting, and living his faith to that extent and even asking these questions about family life.
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DaveEucharist
Guest
Thank you. Before I read this I thought hard about these things. I had some misconceptions.I commend you on that. It’s one of the reasons I returned to the Catholic Church.
First, I think you should go about this whole question in a different order, rather than starting by thinking that you don’t want a bunch of children. You had a logical, solid reason for choosing the Catholic faith, much the same as mine. My thought process, from there was that if God created the Catholic Church, maybe I better think a little more deeply before I just dismiss its teachings and fill them in with what the world tells me.
That, of course, is what landed me in the position of being one of those women who has lots of children!
But you’re making assumptions about these women. Some may just love having lots of children, and that’s fine. Some may simply have chosen to follow the Church’s teaching and may end up with a lot of children or not. Honestly, I have tons of friends who never touch birth control and only have two or three children. They just don’t get pregnant. So a Catholic wife who doesn’t use birth control does not mean you’ll end up with a bunch of kids.
You state you don’t want a bunch of kids. I never set out to have this many, but sometimes, we find ourselves with blessings we didn’t realize would be blessings. No, I didn’t want as in plan, as in deliberately have, this many kids. But I’m so grateful that things went according to God’s plans instead of mine.
You’re also making lots of assumptions about those families with lots of kids. Have them casually??? Well…what in the world does that even mean? As in, dancing down the yellow brick road totally unaware of what another pregnancy and another child means? Living in denial and rose-colored glasses? No, I doubt anyone is doing that. That most definitely does not describe me. However, I also believe that a church created by God and nurtured by 2,000 years of great minds and great saints has something to teach me, and I chose to step out in faith. It has been a great lesson in trust and faith, in seeing how, time after time, God has provided and cared for me. I have learned things I never would have learned had I not stepped out in faith in this area. I have become a person I never would have become, and I’m grateful to God for that, to my children, to my friend who challenged me to live the Catholic faith I claimed to believe. And, of course, I love each and every one of the kids dearly and am so grateful I have each one, especially knowing they would not exist, had I followed the way of the world.
You make the assumption that people with lots of kids can afford all sorts of things. Some can, some can’t. But they’ve made a choice that being open to life is important to them. No, I can’t afford to send my kids to college. Right now, one is going to school on a full academic scholarship and has come up with a plan to get through grad school, too, without loans. Another is going on a half scholarship, working on campus and during the summer, and fully intends to put himself through law school. I have no doubt he’ll do it. My kids are learning the value of hard work and the great confidence and self-respect that comes with that.
I also think it’s interesting that money concerns you when you are looking at possibly having the income of two doctors. If anyone could support a large family, it should be you.
What will become of her is whatever she decides will become of her. Does she value following the Catholic Church’s teaching on artificial birth control? If so, she may simply not get pregnant often.
Or she may have 14 or 16 children. And yes, you absolutely can be a doctor with a large family. The most beautiful Catholic family I ever knew, with ten children, had a mother who was a doctor and raised a stellar, beautiful family. I know a Catholic mother of 6 who worked at NASA and currently run multiple businesses and web sites on political issues. I know a mother of 8 who runs at least two businesses on the internet. I know a mother of more than that who plays a dozen instruments and has published two novels that sell well and get excellent reviews.
I myself started my master’s degree when I was pregnant with my 6th child and finished it right on target with my class…while pregnant with twins.
Maybe she’ll have many children and be able to continue a prestigious career. Maybe she herself will decide at some point that she wants to focus on her children. Maybe she’ll have a husband who makes juggling career and children possible or maybe she’ll have a husband who fully supports her (possible) wish to spend more time with kids. It may be at some point that a prestigious career is simply no longer her highest priority, and I, personally, don’t think it should be. It’s not what we take into eternity; it’s not what God will judge us on.
No, it doesn’t.
See, here’s where you sound dismissive…‘women that are just so into having children all the time.’ It’s dismissive of those women and dismissive of the value of motherhood and of the children themselves.
However, you are in luck. It’s fairly obvious (unfortunately, from my perspective) that many women who call themselves Catholic have no intention of being open to more than two or three children. But even if that weren’t the case, there are definitely women who want to be open to life and follow the Church’s teaching, but also have plenty of interest and intellect.
I think why it sounds so dismissive is because you seem to be implying that ‘women who want lots of kids’ and ‘women with interests and intellect’ are mutually exclusive. That just isn’t so.
D
DaveEucharist
Guest
I’m not surprised. I have spent much time in metropolitan areas of the east coast (NYC, Boston, Philadelphia) and there is a community of young Catholics that take the faiths “seriously” (I don’t mean that in a self-righteous way). This is around undergraduate aged unto early 30’s. Maybe it’s the area I’m in or there are just more people around here.
Thanks again.
H
holyrood
Guest
I’m not surprised. I have spent much time in metropolitan areas of the east coast (NYC, Boston, Philadelphia) and there is a community of young Catholics that take the faiths “seriously” (I don’t mean that in a self-righteous way). This is around undergraduate aged unto early 30’s. Maybe it’s the area I’m in or there are just more people around here.
Thanks again.
See, we all have things to learn! I would have thought NYC and Boston were among the least likely to have large groups of young adults taking the faith seriously. That’s great to hear!
I’m in the suburbs of a city, myself, but still see more older people by far–not necessarily at church, but at things like Adoration.
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DaveEucharist
Guest
Geography might be a factor. Places like NYC/Boston/Chicago/Philadelphia attract young professional types especially because many graduate from schools there and end up settling in the area. I see more younger people 20’s-30’s at Mass and other Catholic functions than families, but that might partially be due to the tendency of families and elder citizens to reside in suburbs.
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dedo
Guest
I work with a couple female neurosurgeons.
They are both nice, cool, highly skilled, and happily married. I don’t know exactly what religion they practice or how many children they have.
It is rare to know all the answers for any pursuit in advance.
We usually just know the next step, if we are fortunate. The whole point of faith is to trust Jesus Christ to show us the way.
I don’t see any problem with being Catholic, a neurosurgeon, or being married to a neurosurgeon.
They are both nice, cool, highly skilled, and happily married. I don’t know exactly what religion they practice or how many children they have.
It is rare to know all the answers for any pursuit in advance.
We usually just know the next step, if we are fortunate. The whole point of faith is to trust Jesus Christ to show us the way.
I don’t see any problem with being Catholic, a neurosurgeon, or being married to a neurosurgeon.
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