Women Scorn Veiled Women. Why?

[system]

robertaf:

As far as pictures of the Blessed Mother, I think you are wrong. Who painted pictures of her who saw here, either in person or in a vision? I have been very interested in Church History and being an Art major in school, have also been very interested in Religious Art and Art history.
Mary may have appeared to folks in private revelation but other than the image of Our Lady of Guadelupe, I know of no other pictures. If I am wrong, please tell me.

Our Lady of Knock - Knock, Ireland (1879)

Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal - Paris, France (1830)

Our Lady of Lavang - La’Vang, Vietnam (1798)

Our Lady of the Pillar - Saragossa, Spain (ca. 40 AD)

Our Lady of LaSalette (France 1846)

Our Lady of the Rosary - Prouille, France (1208)

Our Lady of Mount Carmel - Aylesford, England (1251)

Here is a website that post the apparitions and the meanings of them. www.theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Others.htm

 

[system]

robertaf:

Now,as far as Paul is concerned, he was raised and educated a Jew. So was the other Apostles. They were still worshiping in the Synagogue after the death and resurection of our Lord. They worshiped as Jews on the Sabbath and broke bread in homes on the Lords day. Many of Pauls beliefs come right out of his Jewish. He not only said women should cover their heads but he said they should not cut their hair. There were many teachings out of his epistles regarding the conduct of women.
He was born into very strict observance of the Law and it showed.
I only brought up the submissivness because it fell right in line with his teachings on head covering and cutting the hair. He also taught women were to remain quiet and heaven forbid, be taught by the older women. Being a woman who has spent the last almost 40 years teaching religion and pushing 70 years old harder than I like to, I can tell you I have taught a lot of younger women and still do.

Yes, Paul was raised a Jew, so was Jesus and Mary. I don’t know anything about them worshipping in the synogogues on the Sabbath, so I am unable to comment about that at this time. Paul’s writtings were divinley inspired by Christ and accepted 100% by the church. He was 100% a Christian, otherwise his writings would not be in the Bible. Paul’s teaching was that women should not try to be like men or try all together to be men by cutting their hair as short as men. Not saying that they couldn’t have shorter hair, just not as short as men.

Here is a paragraph that is from St. John Chrysostom to explain the matter more clearly:
GREAT modesty and great propriety does the blessed Paul require of women, and that not only with respect to their dress and appearance: he proceeds even to regulate their speech. And what says he? “Let the woman learn in silence”; that is, let her not speak at all in the church; which rule he has also given in his Epistle to the Corinthians, where he says," It is a shame for women to speak in the church" (1 Cor. xiv. 35); and the reason is, that the law has made them subject to men. And again elsewhere, “And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home.” (Ibid.) Then indeed the women, from such teaching, kept silence; but now there is apt to be great noise among them, much clamor and talking, and nowhere so much as in this place. They may all be seen here talking more than in the market, or at the bath. For, as if they came hither for recreation, they are all engaged in conversing upon unprofitable subjects. Thus all is confusion, and they seem not to understand, that unless they are quiet, they cannot learn anything that is useful. For when our discourse strains against the talking, and no one minds what is said, what good can it do to them? To such a degree should women be silent, that they are not allowed to speak not only about worldly matters, but not even about spiritual things, in the church. This is order, this is modesty, this will adorn her more than any garments. Thus clothed, she will be able to offer her prayers in the manner most becoming.

 

[cathmonarchmom]

I to wore my mantilla to Church on several occasions. Really, the only women that looked at me with disdain were the Extra-Ordinary ministers. I even had other parishioners say how nice it looked and felt sad that things have changed so in our Church. I find it sad that a women who wishes to obey the churches teaches is lookedon as odd and the women who parade around half dressed, even on the altar feel at home. One only needs to read what Our Lady said at Fatima. This time would come when the dress of both men and women would offend God. I think too, that many people get nervous that maybe, just maybe somebody will do the right thing and the Tridentine Mass will be taken out of the closet and brought back to where it belongs can you imagine? Maybe just maybe we will no longer have a people centered Mass but a Christ centered Mass.

Dawn

 

[system]

robertaf:

Please though, don’t act as if you (please don’t take that personally, I mean anyone who chooses to cover their head) are holier than those who leave their heads bare. These little acts do not make you holy. It is what is in your heart that does that.

I tend not to take accusations very well, just too Irish I suppose.

I do apologize if I have offended you, as I have said, it was not intended.

I do not belive that I am holier than anyone by wearing a veil. I did it for my own spirituality. It has nothing to do with anyone else. I do believe that the more that I conform to how God meant me to be, the happier I will be. I accept your apology and please accept mine. I think I may have gotten a little offended, but I belive it had more to do with a conversation I had with someone else other than the one that I had with you. I think the Norwegian in me tends to boil a little itself, for being so young. Anyway, God bless you.

 

[bear06]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Two questions

1. Why are you so hostile about this?
2. Why are women required to cover their heads to see the Pope?

Where’s the hostility? Haven’t you read what I said? I don’t see why people are so hostile to anyone on this issue whether they wear a veil or not. I am simply pointing out that I sincerely doubt anyone follows a strict interpretation of Corinthians 11. If they did, they’d be wearing a head covering 24/7. I’m just curious to see if you believe that women must always where head coverings every single time they pray? or if they should where them at all time? I’m not attacking. I’m just interested to know.

The important thing to do is what the Church binds you to do or what God is calling YOU to do. You can believe that the Church maintains the covered head law but I’ve seen too many canonical studies to the contrary. That said, head coverings are not forbidden and should be, in my opinion, worn by anyone who feels God wants THEM to do so. I don’t think that they should be telling anyone else what God wants that other person to do if the Church is not taking them to task for not wearing a head covering.

I am quite confident that God is not calling me to wear a head covering. I’ve worn them before and the babies trying to yank them off were a very big distraction from God. It in no way made me pay more focused on Our Lord.

As for your question #2…Is this actually required or just preferred. I really don’t know which it is. If it is required, then it’s because the Church says so not because some guy thinks it’s a good thing.

BTW, I think you agreed with Joseph by error because he said:

Unless there is a Canon in the 1983 Code addressing this subject, or unless there is some binding law concerning this subject in some other source not abrogated by Canon 6, it would seem that this particular requirement is indeed no longer binding under Law.

 

[JCPhoenix]

Couple things I just want to say:

Since I publicly lost my cool and released my Irish temper, I just want to apologize to all.

To robertaf specifically, although I disagreed with some of what you said, I did not mean to go off on a diatribe not really directed entirely towards. you. And so I thank you for your gracious response. Will you please forgive my overreaction?

As far as those who profess different spiritualities…Charismatic, Carmelite, Augustinian, Marian…etc… I still take issue that many take an attitude towards those with different spiritualities and condemn practices that they are not called to. Quite honestly, those who do this (and I have to include myself in that number) really need to examine their consciences and see if we can be more accepting.

This is not to say we should tolerate abuse, but rather, that we should understand that the Church is made up of many people, many personalities, and many devotions to fit us all. If we were all a bunch of clones, how could our Church be so vibrant?

Part of the beauty of the Catholic Church is not only the Tradition AND tradition, but the various sacramentals, devotions, spiritualities, etc. Our faith is so wide, so deep, that we can’t possibly identify or experience it all…and so God calls us to one thing, or a few things, and in those areas we find our ways to communicate with him. Isn’t that wonderful?

When we argue about who is right in their practices, who is wrong, who causes distraction, etc., we are really complaining about our own inability to focus on God.

Again, I point my finger at myself, and I ask each and every one of you to take a look at yourself and see where you fall on this spectrum.

There are many people I know who are accepting of all practices, although they do not themselves feel called to, say, praying the LOTH. There are secular Franciscans who don’t expect everyone else to practice their devotoins…and there are also people I know who do not respect anything that differes from the one line they have decided is the only path.

I do not say that moral relativism has a place here…but rather, that the Lord in his wisdom has provided for all of us.

Yes, women are catty, cruel, and as far as the 8th grade reference…that’s when it really gets ugly.

I was once the focus of that, and you ahve no idea what torture I endured, almost to the ending of my own life. So go ahead, ostracize me for wearing a veil, if you must…nothing can be as bad as 8th and 9th grades. I would rather be ostracized for being obedient to God than to be accepted and go along with a crowd that I don’t fit.

Let us be more welcoming, more accepting, and understand that the rainbow isn’t just the promise to Noah…it is the very reflection of what faithful Cathlics are supposed to be; we are not clones, nor are we called to be.

Again, I’m sorry for my ranting post, and especially directed at robertaf.

God bless, everyone.

 

[netmilsmom]

bear06:

Where’s the hostility? Haven’t you read what I said? I don’t see why people are so hostile to anyone on this issue whether they wear a veil or not. I am simply pointing out that I sincerely doubt anyone follows a strict interpretation of Corinthians 11. If they did, they’d be wearing a head covering 24/7. I’m just curious to see if you believe that women must always where head coverings every single time they pray? or if they should where them at all time? I’m not attacking. I’m just interested to know.

The important thing to do is what the Church binds you to do or what God is calling YOU to do. You can believe that the Church maintains the covered head law but I’ve seen too many canonical studies to the contrary. That said, head coverings are not forbidden and should be, in my opinion, worn by anyone who feels God wants THEM to do so. I don’t think that they should be telling anyone else what God wants that other person to do if the Church is not taking them to task for not wearing a head covering.

I am quite confident that God is not calling me to wear a head covering. I’ve worn them before and the babies trying to yank them off were a very big distraction from God. It in no way made me pay more focused on Our Lord.

As for your question #2…Is this actually required or just preferred. I really don’t know which it is. If it is required, then it’s because the Church says so not because some guy thinks it’s a good thing.

BTW, I think you agreed with Joseph by error because he said:

I agreed with Joseph because out of curiousity asked when this was taken out of cannon law. He answered. Why are you reading into this?

Now here’s one for you…
Where in any of my posts have I told ANYONE that they must wear a veil??? You apparently are looking REALLY hard for something that I have not said.
I have continually explained why “I” do this. I do it to honor my Husband, who I pray will convert. A priest suggested it.

My Goodness, you are proving the OP correct! There is hostility toward someone who wears a veil, because I certainly am not doing anything but explaining myself. Geez, take a good look at this thread. The hostility is coming from those who don’t like the practice.

 

[tadly]

robertaf:

Here we go again!!

Fear, envy???
Give me a break.

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Just how silly can Catholics get?

Why would anyone fear you??? Whats to fear.

Why on earth would anyone envy you? If I envied you, I would also wear a veil. I am sure I have several packed away somewhere.

Don’t you understand that many of us are pre Vatican II (also pre-Bayside, where I suspect much of this nonsense came from)

If we cared to continue wearing veils, kneeling at the Communion rail, and sticking where we were, we would have done it. We had permission to.

Ya don’t seem to get the fact that you are no holier than any of the rest of your Catholic sisters. You don’t even LOOK holier if this is what you have in mind.

Why don’t you just suck it up and get over all this divisive nonsense. Isn’t the Body of Christ torn up enough? Does it have to continue from the inside? Leave all this stuff in Gods hands. We just continue to botch things up.

They call it Spiritual Pride.

This is the nastiest post I have seen here.
Why the yelling? Why call people silly for their comments? Why call their actions nonsense?

Looks like you have some spritual pride going yourself.

 

[tadly]

robertaf:

The fact is, you have never seen a picture of Mary.
Go figure it out.
What you have seen is someones idea of what Mary looked like.
You want to get down to facts???
Mary was probably not light skinned and light haired as the pictures show. She was probably dark skinned and look much like the Arabs we see today.
Mary was probably not tall and slim as pictures show. She was probably broad and very muscular. Women walked miles, carried heavy heavy jugs of water daily on their heads and shoulders. She was probably rather hairy and had deep calouses on her hands.

You need to get away from the paintings you grew up with.
I doubt very much that our Blessed Mother wore lace.
I also doubt it was worn to “be Holy”. She was holy.
You can wear halos on your head and you will never achieve her kind holiness.

And… Pauls teachings as far as women covering their heads was not Christian. They were Ortodox Jew.
You need to spend more time studying what Paul wrote and in context with his Jewish beliefs.
By the way, do you also keep quiet in church and never ever teach men. That would be your own husbands and sons, as well.
Are you fully submissive to your husband or are you picking and choosing???

You just keep going on don’t you?
There is the right way to talk to people and the wrong way.

I guess I just don’t understand it.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Know what? I have been trying to explain to people why it is not necessary to “veil”. None other than Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers has explained why it is not necessary to “veil” on his site and in articles from This Rock. He is much more qualified than I am to tell you what you don’t want to hear. Very few of you want to hear the historical context of St. Paul’s remarks. Very few of you want to listen to actual canon law that dispensed with wearing a head covering in Church. Many of you do not care that there is no requirement to “veil” in the presence of the pope, that it is merely a tradition. Not many want to hear about real veils and hats, and those little pieces of lace. The majority of you have your minds made up. Many of you would rather assume a custom from 17th to 19th century Spain that evolved into a mid-20th century choice of head covering is THE covering about which St. Paul spoke, which was what was considered veiling in his time. You just seem to want to assume that your way is the only right way, and that those of us who choose not to take up this practice are heretical harpies who support activity contrary to Church teaching.

I know of no woman in my neck of the woods who made fun of another woman for deciding to cover her head. Despite the fact that women can be catty into their dottage, I have yet to see any woman who does not practice this sacramental, point out the headgear of another and yell out loud, or whisper, “Hey, look it that freak!”

This is getting quite ridiculous.

As an example- at one point in the American Church, people- laity and religious and even some priests who were asleep during that particular class in the seminary- used to attack people for obtaining a divorce. They were driven from the parish church because somebody got so self-righteous as to misquote canon law, making people feel they did not belong in church period. It took a great deal of education and even advertising to get the facts out there. And there are STILL individual Catholics who spread the lie that a divorced person has no place in the parish, instead of what is correct: A couple may divorce if necessary, but cannot remarry without a decree of nullity of their marriage.

That is what this veil thing, this contention of debate over women’s head coverings, seems to be to me at this point.

Women, for the most part, seem to just want to choose to wear head coverings or not. It is their choice, between the individual woman and God.

The majority of men who feel this is not a discipline, not a custom, but dogma or canon law, seem to me to be bent on dropping lace on women’s heads, without regard to what women choose, and making a major case if a woman chooses not to do so. And it is** a *choice in most situations.***If another woman chooses differently, then these same men (and some woman now) feel it is their Christian duty to tack those veils on with metaphorical staples if necessary to get women to comply with their notion of propriety.

We are NOT talking flip-flops, tank tops, or shorts, along with tight skirts or sweaters that leave nothing to the imagination. We are talking about God-made hair that shows on the top of the head where God wanted it to show, in 21st-century styles. Mine is gray and black. If that somehow turns on a man or distracts him from prayer, he has problems that a lace veil on a woman’s head can’t begin to fix. BESIDES, it was not to keep men from being distracted. It was supposed to honor God.

Well guess what? You can all have your “ain’t it awful” sessions alone, as it seems you are not out to really listen, to really hear, or to really dialogue on WHY most of us prefer not to cover our heads in church, or hear that nobody is out there making fun of other women wearing veils. Sooner or later, you’ll find some other person who will try to explain it to you again. And you’ll take out what appear to be weak arguments, and no matter what or how that person proves to you through solid research that you are not exactly right, you’ll lambaste them, by repeating the same thing over and over again, as if by repetition that makes it right.

 

[tadly]

OutinChgoburbs:

color=black]Know what? I have been trying to explain to people why it is not necessary to “veil”. None other than Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers has explained why it is not necessary to “veil” on his site and in articles from This Rock. He is much more qualified than I am to tell you what you don’t want to hear. Very few of you want to hear the historical context of St. Paul’s remarks. Very few of you want to listen to actual canon law that dispensed with wearing a head covering in Church. Many of you do not care that there is no requirement to “veil” in the presence of the pope, that it is merely a tradition. Not many want to hear about real veils and hats, and those little pieces of lace. The majority of you have your minds made up. Many of you would rather assume a custom from 17th to 19th century Spain that evolved into a mid-20th century choice of head covering is THE covering about which St. Paul spoke, which was what was considered veiling in his time. You just seem to want to assume that your way is the only right way, and that those of us who choose not to take up this practice are heretical harpies who support activity contrary to Church teaching.

Why are you yelling and who “seemed” to call you a harpie? You seem pretty paranoid.
It seems to me that those women who do not want to wear a veil are pretty defensive about it.

I think the yelling and jumping on people here is coming from you women who don’t want to wear a veil.

Not a single person here told you that you have to.
And it’s not fair to tell the women here that want to that they are wrong.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

.The thread has apparently talked itself out, and appears now to be critiquing each other rather than having anything additional to add to the subject.

It is therefore closed.