Women should keep silent??? 1Corinth14:34-35

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Disciple and Apostle = two different things. 🙂 I am not arguing that she was a disciple. I am pointing out that she was not one of the chosen twelve.
No, disciple and apostle mean the same thing 🙂 Just look at this web site thesaurus.com/browse/disciple Mary was absolutely part of the chosen group to propogate Christianity. There is nothing that says that Christ’s chosen ones began and ended with the 12 men who followed him. In fact, God’s chosen ones are found even today. Also, remember, Mary has continued to appear throughout history, and has continued to urge us to follow her son Jesus Christ.
 
What do you mean by equality? In many and important ways women and men are not equal. The easiest one that no one can deny is women can carry and bear children. From a Christian point of view the fact that God chose to create both men and women and make them substantially different is important because God does not do things by accident. Of course if looked at from the materialist point of view the issue is irrelevant since there is nothing immaterial and therefore inequality is not unjust or wrong.
Of equal worth, value, etc.
 
No, disciple and apostle mean the same thing 🙂 Just look at this web site thesaurus.com/browse/disciple Mary was absolutely part of the chosen group to propogate Christianity. There is nothing that says that Christ’s chosen ones began and ended with the 12 men who followed him. In fact, God’s chosen ones are found even today. Also, remember, Mary has continued to appear throughout history, and has continued to urge us to follow her son Jesus Christ.
I give up. Hah. We simply do not see eye to eye and there’s little point continuing the discussion.

If you believe the twelve weren’t special then so be it but I believe they were… and I don’t believe all the disciples were given the same privileges or duties. Whatever word we use to describe them, the twelve were the chosen twelve and appointed as leaders of the others. Whether you see that in scripture or not that’s what I see in scripture.
 
I give up. Hah. We simply do not see eye to eye and there’s little point continuing the discussion.

If you believe the twelve weren’t special then so be it but I believe they were… and I don’t believe all the disciples were given the same privileges or duties. Whatever word we use to describe them, the twelve were the chosen twelve and appointed as leaders of the others. Whether you see that in scripture or not that’s what I see in scripture.
I do think that the twelve were special, but there were and are others. 🙂
 
Some of the above arguments are just a matter of definition. Apostle and disciple have essentially the same meaning. However, the Catholic Church uses the term apostle to mean one of the 12 men chosen by Jesus to lead His Church. It is through these 12 that the Church’s authority has been passed on. Jesus had many disciples. We know many of them were women.

Blessed Pope John Paul II wrote that men and women are of equal value, but that they have different roles in society and in the Church. God made them differently to better serve Him in the capacity for which He made them.
 
The text used is as follows…

1 Cor. 14:34-38 (KJV)
[34] …Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. [36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

The negative attitude toward Christian women comes from two hard to understand passages from St. Paul. After reading on the subject I think that in both cases he was addressing local errors in the Church and was not making a general statement for all time.

The one thing that has to be considered is the writings of St. Paul are often answers to problems or questions that he has been presented with either by letter or by a visitor from that Church. So we are only hearing one side of a conversation. So when he is answering a question we have to deduce from his answer what the question was. Most letters were lost to history. And so that is what we have to do with this passage. 1 Corinthians 14:36-38 is his response to an important situation, which was detrimental to the Corinthian Church. So what problem is he addressing in our text? What is he reacting to?

After writing on boards like this for 20 years it is interesting how many times that this issue of women keeps coming up again and again; and of course the problem that spiritually savvy Christians have is the manifested spirit of St. Paul and his kindness and respect for women is in direct conflict with this stated text. And so we struggle with our apologetics in order to reconcile the two. Of course there are those who are more legalistic and are dogmatic about this problematic text – they have no problem.

It is unfortunate that the Koine Greek does not use quotation marks If it did I don’t think a lot of us would be struggling with this passage like we do. For the sake of this post allow me to add quotation marks to the appropriate text of this passage.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (KJV) [34] …“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.” [35] “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

In 34 & 35 St. Paul is quoting the words of someone in the Church probably a “Judiazer,” someone from the Circumcision Party, who opposed Paul at every turn - who in judging from the text - considered himself a prophet in that local body.

Moreover, I Corinthians 14:34,35, if taken totally literally, cannot refer to the Old Testament Scriptures when speaking of the Law for there is not one trace from Genesis to Malachi of any such prohibition of women to literally keep silent in the church nor is there a single word in the whole “law of Moses” dealing with the subject. Therefore the words, “it is not permitted” and “as also saith the Law” must refer to some rule outside of Scripture. There was no other but the Oral Law of the Jews appealed to by the Judaizers in the church in their efforts at that time to bring Christianity back within the confines of Judaism.

The Jewish Oral Law did teach the silencing of women. The Talmud also taught that it was “a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men”. However, the Oral Law of the Jews is not Scripture. Again, the reference to the “law” is, of itself, sufficient to show that the Apostle who labored so earnestly to free the Christian Church from the very shadow of Judaism was not expressing his own conviction in the language attributed to him. Paul never appealed to the “law” for the guidance of the Church of Christ, but, on the contrary, declared that believers were dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Romans 7:4) that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (v.6).)

Now lets look at St. Paul’s response to this quotation. I have used the old KJV because it uses the word “What” in its translation as do several other versions. This should be read in a mocking angry sarcastic tone of voice.

[36] What?came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

“What” is an expression of outrage at the preceding quote. He follows with a denouncement of the comments of the Judiazer. He didn’t dwell on the problem probably because he only wanted to correct the situation and not to destroy or run off the individual.

So in summary the text was not composed by St. Paul, but was only quoted by him in making a correction to the quotation. Actually, the exact opposite of the text was intended in this passage of Scripture.
 
To summarize what several have said:

Equal is not a synonym for interchangeable. 😉
 
The text used is as follows…

1 Cor. 14:34-38 (KJV)
[34] …Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. [36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

The negative attitude toward Christian women comes from two hard to understand passages from St. Paul. After reading on the subject I think that in both cases he was addressing local errors in the Church and was not making a general statement for all time.

The one thing that has to be considered is the writings of St. Paul are often answers to problems or questions that he has been presented with either by letter or by a visitor from that Church. So we are only hearing one side of a conversation. So when he is answering a question we have to deduce from his answer what the question was. Most letters were lost to history. And so that is what we have to do with this passage. 1 Corinthians 14:36-38 is his response to an important situation, which was detrimental to the Corinthian Church. So what problem is he addressing in our text? What is he reacting to?

After writing on boards like this for 20 years it is interesting how many times that this issue of women keeps coming up again and again; and of course the problem that spiritually savvy Christians have is the manifested spirit of St. Paul and his kindness and respect for women is in direct conflict with this stated text. And so we struggle with our apologetics in order to reconcile the two. Of course there are those who are more legalistic and are dogmatic about this problematic text – they have no problem.

It is unfortunate that the Koine Greek does not use quotation marks If it did I don’t think a lot of us would be struggling with this passage like we do. For the sake of this post allow me to add quotation marks to the appropriate text of this passage.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (KJV) [34] …“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.” [35] “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

In 34 & 35 St. Paul is quoting the words of someone in the Church probably a “Judiazer,” someone from the Circumcision Party, who opposed Paul at every turn - who in judging from the text - considered himself a prophet in that local body.

Moreover, I Corinthians 14:34,35, if taken totally literally, cannot refer to the Old Testament Scriptures when speaking of the Law for there is not one trace from Genesis to Malachi of any such prohibition of women to literally keep silent in the church nor is there a single word in the whole “law of Moses” dealing with the subject. Therefore the words, “it is not permitted” and “as also saith the Law” must refer to some rule outside of Scripture. There was no other but the Oral Law of the Jews appealed to by the Judaizers in the church in their efforts at that time to bring Christianity back within the confines of Judaism.

The Jewish Oral Law did teach the silencing of women. The Talmud also taught that it was “a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men”. However, the Oral Law of the Jews is not Scripture. Again, the reference to the “law” is, of itself, sufficient to show that the Apostle who labored so earnestly to free the Christian Church from the very shadow of Judaism was not expressing his own conviction in the language attributed to him. Paul never appealed to the “law” for the guidance of the Church of Christ, but, on the contrary, declared that believers were dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Romans 7:4) that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (v.6).)

Now lets look at St. Paul’s response to this quotation. I have used the old KJV because it uses the word “What” in its translation as do several other versions. This should be read in a mocking angry sarcastic tone of voice.

[36] What?came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

“What” is an expression of outrage at the preceding quote. He follows with a denouncement of the comments of the Judiazer. He didn’t dwell on the problem probably because he only wanted to correct the situation and not to destroy or run off the individual.

So in summary the text was not composed by St. Paul, but was only quoted by him in making a correction to the quotation. Actually, the exact opposite of the text was intended in this passage of Scripture.
Thank you. It’s good to see someone who has taken the time to understand the Bible in depth! 🙂
 
The text used is as follows…

1 Cor. 14:34-38 (KJV)
[34] …Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. [36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

The negative attitude toward Christian women comes from two hard to understand passages from St. Paul. After reading on the subject I think that in both cases he was addressing local errors in the Church and was not making a general statement for all time.

The one thing that has to be considered is the writings of St. Paul are often answers to problems or questions that he has been presented with either by letter or by a visitor from that Church. So we are only hearing one side of a conversation. So when he is answering a question we have to deduce from his answer what the question was. Most letters were lost to history. And so that is what we have to do with this passage. 1 Corinthians 14:36-38 is his response to an important situation, which was detrimental to the Corinthian Church. So what problem is he addressing in our text? What is he reacting to?

After writing on boards like this for 20 years it is interesting how many times that this issue of women keeps coming up again and again; and of course the problem that spiritually savvy Christians have is the manifested spirit of St. Paul and his kindness and respect for women is in direct conflict with this stated text. And so we struggle with our apologetics in order to reconcile the two. Of course there are those who are more legalistic and are dogmatic about this problematic text – they have no problem.

It is unfortunate that the Koine Greek does not use quotation marks If it did I don’t think a lot of us would be struggling with this passage like we do. For the sake of this post allow me to add quotation marks to the appropriate text of this passage.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (KJV) [34] …“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.” [35] “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

In 34 & 35 St. Paul is quoting the words of someone in the Church probably a “Judiazer,” someone from the Circumcision Party, who opposed Paul at every turn - who in judging from the text - considered himself a prophet in that local body.

Moreover, I Corinthians 14:34,35, if taken totally literally, cannot refer to the Old Testament Scriptures when speaking of the Law for there is not one trace from Genesis to Malachi of any such prohibition of women to literally keep silent in the church nor is there a single word in the whole “law of Moses” dealing with the subject. Therefore the words, “it is not permitted” and “as also saith the Law” must refer to some rule outside of Scripture. There was no other but the Oral Law of the Jews appealed to by the Judaizers in the church in their efforts at that time to bring Christianity back within the confines of Judaism.

The Jewish Oral Law did teach the silencing of women. The Talmud also taught that it was “a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men”. However, the Oral Law of the Jews is not Scripture. Again, the reference to the “law” is, of itself, sufficient to show that the Apostle who labored so earnestly to free the Christian Church from the very shadow of Judaism was not expressing his own conviction in the language attributed to him. Paul never appealed to the “law” for the guidance of the Church of Christ, but, on the contrary, declared that believers were dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Romans 7:4) that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (v.6).)

Now lets look at St. Paul’s response to this quotation. I have used the old KJV because it uses the word “What” in its translation as do several other versions. This should be read in a mocking angry sarcastic tone of voice.

[36] What?came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

“What” is an expression of outrage at the preceding quote. He follows with a denouncement of the comments of the Judiazer. He didn’t dwell on the problem probably because he only wanted to correct the situation and not to destroy or run off the individual.

So in summary the text was not composed by St. Paul, but was only quoted by him in making a correction to the quotation. Actually, the exact opposite of the text was intended in this passage of Scripture.
What reason is there to believe that Saint Paul respected women, or was kind to them?
Is it simply assumed because he was a Godly man?
 
To summarize what several have said:

Equal is not a synonym for interchangeable. 😉
So what?

Does that mean that men and women should be judged (and punished) according to different standards?

That has been the norm throughout history, and it has generally been to women’s disadvantage.
 
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
What reason is there to believe that Saint Paul respected women, or was kind to them?
Is it simply assumed because he was a Godly man?
Re-read Sonseeahray’s message.
I have.
It doesn’t address the questions.
 
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
What reason is there to believe that Saint Paul respected women, or was kind to them?
Is it simply assumed because he was a Godly man?

I have.
It doesn’t address the questions.
You don’t see the answer?! Oh, well!
 
Things have changed a lot in 2000 years. Men and women can sit together without separation in places of worship in most Christian churches unlike other religious groups where males & females are often separated in public (or even in private) prayer even today.

My modern day interpretation of that verse is that both males and females should remain silent when it is needed when inside a church. Some talking is necessary during certain forms of prayer like praying the Rosary before Mass as a group, Mass responses, and Confession as examples. I believe unnecessary talking beyond saying things like hello / how are you before, during and after Mass in the main worship space can be distracting to others who wish to silently pray & reflect.
 
Things have changed a lot in 2000 years. Men and women can sit together without separation in places of worship in most Christian churches unlike other religious groups where males & females are often separated in public (or even in private) prayer even today.
The reasoning for this is that there is NO marraige in heaven. The idea of Men and Women sitting apart shows distinctly that each sex has a unique role here on earth. While we are all part of the Body of Christ. So the seperating of the sexes during liturgical services has designed to remind us of these facts.
My modern day interpretation of that verse is that both males and females should remain silent when it is needed when inside a church. Some talking is necessary during certain forms of prayer like praying the Rosary before Mass as a group, Mass responses, and Confession as examples. I believe unnecessary talking beyond saying things like hello / how are you before, during and after Mass in the main worship space can be distracting to others who wish to silently pray & reflect.
This whole thread shows how LITTLE most people know if their faith. Women keeping silent, etc. is geared towards preaching (a priests duty, think Gospel and Homily) in the temple (church). Women are not allowed to become priests and so they are not to teach in the temple (Church). It has NOTHING to do with singing, saying responses, etc. This is a very easy concept to understand.

I higly suggest people start with the BASIC catechisms. If the CCC is to weighty, go back to the Baltimore Catechism and read it. You will then have a solid foundation for more indepth reading.

Keep in mind that EACH human life is just as valuable as another. Men and women both have UNIQUE roles in this life. That does not mean one role is LESS important or LESS valued. Women are subject to men for a VERY simple reason. God created woman FOR man from his only flesh (It says right there in Geneis). Had Adam been fine with being alone, none of us would be here. EVE was also the one to betray God and Adam.

In any event, there needs to be a natural order of things or we get Chaos. In the family the head of the houshold is always the Father (does not mean he gets to order anyone around) followed by the mother and then the eldest children. When there are disputes then the woman is admonished to defer to her husband and the husband is required to hear his wife and contemplate her words as Christ would listen to the Father.

It is modern liberal thinking that equates equality to samness in being that causes all of these problems. I am not a women, I can not bear children and a woman is not a man, she can not make herself pregnant. Each requires the other.

So the whole thing about women being silent in the Church is solely based on preaching and teaching. The SAME decree came recently from the Vatican. Women can NEVER be priests as man can not change God’s law.
 
The reasoning for this is that there is NO marraige in heaven. The idea of Men and Women sitting apart shows distinctly that each sex has a unique role here on earth. While we are all part of the Body of Christ. So the seperating of the sexes during liturgical services has designed to remind us of these facts.

This whole thread shows how LITTLE most people know if their faith. Women keeping silent, etc. is geared towards preaching (a priests duty, think Gospel and Homily) in the temple (church). Women are not allowed to become priests and so they are not to teach in the temple (Church). It has NOTHING to do with singing, saying responses, etc. This is a very easy concept to understand.

I higly suggest people start with the BASIC catechisms. If the CCC is to weighty, go back to the Baltimore Catechism and read it. You will then have a solid foundation for more indepth reading.

Keep in mind that EACH human life is just as valuable as another. Men and women both have UNIQUE roles in this life. That does not mean one role is LESS important or LESS valued. Women are subject to men for a VERY simple reason. God created woman FOR man from his only flesh (It says right there in Geneis). Had Adam been fine with being alone, none of us would be here.** EVE was also the one to betray God and Adam.**

In any event, there needs to be a natural order of things or we get Chaos. In the family the head of the houshold is always the Father (does not mean he gets to order anyone around) followed by the mother and then the eldest children. When there are disputes then the woman is admonished to defer to her husband and the husband is required to hear his wife and contemplate her words as Christ would listen to the Father.

It is modern liberal thinking that equates equality to samness in being that causes all of these problems. I am not a women, I can not bear children and a woman is not a man, she can not make herself pregnant. Each requires the other.

So the whole thing about women being silent in the Church is solely based on preaching and teaching. The SAME decree came recently from the Vatican. Women can NEVER be priests as man can not change God’s law.
I keep running into this wierd idea (mainly in Protestant circles) that Eve (Woman) is to blame for the Fall, but Adam’s eating of the Fruit is the thing that really doomed the human race, since he was the Head of Mankind and therefore it was what he did that had weight.
Frankly I think that’s contradictory nonsense, but a lot of people seem to believe it.
 
The reasoning for this is that there is NO marraige in heaven. The idea of Men and Women sitting apart shows distinctly that each sex has a unique role here on earth. While we are all part of the Body of Christ. So the seperating of the sexes during liturgical services has designed to remind us of these facts.

This whole thread shows how LITTLE most people know if their faith. Women keeping silent, etc. is geared towards preaching (a priests duty, think Gospel and Homily) in the temple (church). Women are not allowed to become priests and so they are not to teach in the temple (Church). It has NOTHING to do with singing, saying responses, etc. This is a very easy concept to understand.

I higly suggest people start with the BASIC catechisms. If the CCC is to weighty, go back to the Baltimore Catechism and read it. You will then have a solid foundation for more indepth reading.

Keep in mind that EACH human life is just as valuable as another. Men and women both have UNIQUE roles in this life. That does not mean one role is LESS important or LESS valued. Women are subject to men for a VERY simple reason. God created woman FOR man from his only flesh (It says right there in Geneis). Had Adam been fine with being alone, none of us would be here. EVE was also the one to betray God and Adam.

In any event, there needs to be a natural order of things or we get Chaos. ** In the family the head of the houshold is always the Father (does not mean he gets to order anyone around) followed by the mother and then the eldest children. When there are disputes then the woman is admonished to defer to her husband and the husband is required to hear his wife and contemplate her words as Christ would listen to the Father.**

It is modern liberal thinking that equates equality to samness in being that causes all of these problems. I am not a women, I can not bear children and a woman is not a man, she can not make herself pregnant. Each requires the other.

So the whole thing about women being silent in the Church is solely based on preaching and teaching. The SAME decree came recently from the Vatican. Women can NEVER be priests as man can not change God’s law.
So women are at the very bottom of the social/religious hierarchy then (except for children).

Moreover, why would a husband have to listen to his wife (or care about her desires/needs)?
If he’s in charge he can do what he wants.
 
So women are at the very bottom of the social/religious hierarchy then (except for children).

Moreover, why would a husband have to listen to his wife (or care about her desires/needs)?
If he’s in charge he can do what he wants.
He can do what he wants… but a good man chooses to take into account his wife’s thoughts and advice.

Ideally this sort of structure can work just fine. Some people are messed up and abuse the set up but that doesn’t mean the set up itself is bad.

You could argue that both spouses can be equally in control with no trouble but I believe any relationship works best when one person is willing to step back and defer ‘the head of household’ hat to another. This way when the two are NOT in agreeance, there is a system in place that sets in place who makes the final decision without a great deal of argument and strife.

Furthermore, the person who steps back and allows someone else to take control is NOT the weaker person but the stronger one because setting aside one’s own desires is no easy task. Quite frankly I’m not sure men could handle it. 😉
 
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